Absolutely. The point though is for ordinary folk to be able to tell if their liquid is way out of synch with the label; and for this the kit will do a good job.
Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results
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Absolutely. The point though is for ordinary folk to be able to tell if their liquid is way out of synch with the label; and for this the kit will do a good job.
You recall ALL OF IT. Having batch numbers and being able to do a limited recall protects the supplier too.
Yup! That is exactly what happens when you do not keep accurate records. It is relatively cheap to recall batch X vice the hole lot IMO. Never try to save a few bucks, it will cost you more in the long run.
What makes this issue dangerous is not so much the high levels of concentration per se, but the fact that the recipients don't know what they have.
Also, despite all the advice not to be so stupid, quite a few people will try a vape at full strength out of curiosity.
It just needs an accident (leak / spill) on top of unknown high concentration for calamity to occur.
+++
Even if the worst mislabelling is only ~3x, while death would be (very) unlikely, other concerns arise. People might persist in the use of a liquid that is far higher than normal and feel unwell; in susceptible people this could lead to fairly serious symptoms.
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In looking at the issue at hand, it seems(at least to me) that the relevant question is:
What Quality Control measures do ALL distributors of Nicotine Base and ALL vendors have in place to assure the product is as labeled. That, to me, is the bottom line....
I have e-mailed the vendors that I use and, at this point, am getting vague responses. I am beginning to think that Quality Control is an "exception" rather than "a rule".
What Quality Control measures do ALL distributors of Nicotine Base and ALL vendors have in place to assure the product is as labeled. That, to me, is the bottom line....
I have e-mailed the vendors that I use and, at this point, am getting vague responses. I am beginning to think that Quality Control is an "exception" rather than "a rule".
Thanks, Kurt, for all you're doing for the vaping community!
Kurt said, in response to my experiences with the eBay test kit,
Thanks for the cautionary note, Kurt. Maybe I should rerun the tests. But I was getting almost the same results with two drops (earlier) as I did with six drops (on Thursday, November 17). Maybe there's only an insignificant difference in pH between two drops and six drops of indicator when you're using a total of 3 ml. test liquid? (I sure dunno, since I'm way out over my skis here! I've only had high school inorganic chemistry and organic chemistry classes, and that was in 1965. I took rocks 101 and 102 in college to satisfy the hard-science distribution requirement.)
I wonder also about the light source and background used. In my case, I used a 13-watt squiggly fluorescent bulb (supposedly equivalent to a 60-watt incandescent bulb) from about four feet over my shoulder and viewed the cylinder against a sheet of stark-white paper about a foot behind the cylinder. Is it possible that different light (say, an LED flashlight or sunlight) and/or a different background would show a slightly different endpoint?
Kurt said, in response to my experiences with the eBay test kit,
Thanks for the cautionary note, Kurt. Maybe I should rerun the tests. But I was getting almost the same results with two drops (earlier) as I did with six drops (on Thursday, November 17). Maybe there's only an insignificant difference in pH between two drops and six drops of indicator when you're using a total of 3 ml. test liquid? (I sure dunno, since I'm way out over my skis here! I've only had high school inorganic chemistry and organic chemistry classes, and that was in 1965. I took rocks 101 and 102 in college to satisfy the hard-science distribution requirement.)
I wonder also about the light source and background used. In my case, I used a 13-watt squiggly fluorescent bulb (supposedly equivalent to a 60-watt incandescent bulb) from about four feet over my shoulder and viewed the cylinder against a sheet of stark-white paper about a foot behind the cylinder. Is it possible that different light (say, an LED flashlight or sunlight) and/or a different background would show a slightly different endpoint?
Reminds me a lot of the 60's... We could whip up a mass protest at any time with some dramatics. This is a valid, serious issue. But it's not a new issue and it's not something no one was aware of. "What's in that juice?", "What materials was that carto made from?", ... no traceability, no controls, do we want regulation? how does one self regulate when droves will flock to buy the one that's $0.10 cheaper. That sort of thing. Let's try to keep the dramatics/half truths/attention grabbers in check as they only undermine the effort to deal with an important issue right?
Thank you! on point.
Major factor is cost. Small operations need high margins on low volume. Large operations kind of imply complying with regulations and approvals and huge initial investment in an uncertain (and relatively small) market. On our side there are the droves who flock to the $0.10 per unit cheaper price... Without regulation it can only be market driven. People need to vote with their dollars and they must be willing to spend more of them. I only use a couple of the old, very well established vendors that I trust for all my stuff. They tend to charge a bit more but I figure I'm getting my money's worth.
Really? You're willing to just make that assertion that there are bottles out there at ~10x? I've only seen claims of 2x to 2.5x what they were labeled. What is the "normal" concentration for buying liquid nicotine in bulk? Do newbies really order 100mg nic? Are people really handling what they think is 100mg nic with no care or precautions? Cart leak?... I thought I was only vaping 100mg nic and my cart leaked 240mg nic...? Serious problem yes. I think people are capable of grasping the gravity of the situation without the dramatics.
Right... not many people vape straight liquid nic. Even fewer vape 100mg liquid nic.
Really? Business run in private residence ==> disreputable business?
The panelist didn't constrain their statement to RTS did they? I kind of heard something to the effect of "NO vendors source their liquid nic from the US"?
Darwin award?
Thank you! on point.
Major factor is cost. Small operations need high margins on low volume. Large operations kind of imply complying with regulations and approvals and huge initial investment in an uncertain (and relatively small) market. On our side there are the droves who flock to the $0.10 per unit cheaper price... Without regulation it can only be market driven. People need to vote with their dollars and they must be willing to spend more of them. I only use a couple of the old, very well established vendors that I trust for all my stuff. They tend to charge a bit more but I figure I'm getting my money's worth.
^^^ This ^^^
Histrionics, what-if's, hyperbole, and sensationalism serves no one. The issue is big enough on its own without such things.
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I am pointing out the very real dangers because some people do not seem to realise the gravity involved. "Darwin award"?? People don't know what they have - so how can they determine the risk?
This isn't the time for trivialising. You call it dramatic; I call it serious.
There are a number of important issue surrounding QC; but there is also an ongoing situation where the issue has 'gone live'.
I wrote : "There are bottles out there at ~10x normal concentration" - maybe it is not the clearest sentence but reasonably easy to see that I mean 10x normal use concentration; it clearly doesn't say 10x the label. So don't twist words to make a point that doesn't exist.
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Call it what you may... Box Elder Chemical Company would lead one to believe otherwise, wouldn't you think. I hope they do have a real company with proper protocols in place. However as discussed and allured to, there is serious doubt with regards to the following...
click to enlarge
Are you saying that no recall or even a clear warning should be issued ?
Just to be clear, I'm responding because the issues surrounding this are important.
First, snipping one small paragraph out of what I wrote is misleading and changes the meaning of the passage (that's here so you know I'm not willing to dodge the question- and I'm willing to address it elsewhere).
Second, I'd like commentary and criticism regarding the interviewer or VapeTV to no longer be side tracking this thread. The crowd-sourcing here is too important. If folks want to start another thread to offer constructive criticism I'm fine with that- and will willingly answer questions (any questions) regarding the interview if they exist.
The above does not apply if the information pulled from the interview is germane to the research process at hand.
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I have had almost instant replies from the vendors I contacted. I would be very concerned if your vendor has not replied, or responds vaguely.
That's my point. So where is the hisrionics/hyperbole/sensationalism?
I disagree with the statement that “I don't mean to dismiss the BE case as being trivial, it's not. Fortunately at the concentrations offered the net result is a toxic, not lethal.”
According to Wikipedia Nicotine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia a lethal dose can be 40-60mg for non smokers and 80-120mg for smokers… Depending on the weight of the person. I’m sure If you ingest it, its less lethal because of the stomach acid counter acting the base in the nicotine, and less gets in your bleed stream. And yes if you vape 40-60mg you will get sick before you get to the lethal doses.
But what if your DIY’er making liquid, and you spill some on you. If you soak just 0.5ml of 270mg nic into your skin, that IS lethal. Add to that the fumes you will get while working with it. And if you THINK your are working with 50-100mg, your less likely to be as causios than if you KNEW you were working with 270mg. I personally only work with <50mg nic when doing DYI, but I did work with a higher mg batch by mistake a while ago, and started to feel the effects just by the fumes cutting it down.
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I'd have to agree with you. A friend of mine acquired 300mg nic in an attempt to cut costs and ended up in a cardiac ward form the fumes.
Not to be played with.
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