Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[oldsoldier]

The UK board seems to think it was only VG liquids that had a problem. It was NOT only VG. The 121 mg was PG. And that person got sick. I should have put the vehicles in the OP. The rest were all VG, and yes there is the chance that it was a mixing issue from a larger batch. The 272 mg was also VG, but this I do not think was from a mixing issue. I think this was the previous conc base that was USED to mix up the others. It is a different thing all together. I am of course speculating, but even in appearance it is an anomaly.

So to give the list again now with vehicles and BE lot numbers and purchase dates, if known:

100 mg....48 mg (This one was mine, don't know lot #) VG 6/9/11
100 mg....121 mg PG lot 256 7/5/11
100 mg....272 mg VG lot 257 5/29/11
48 mg....78 mg VG lot 257 9/7/11
36 mg....51 mg VG lot 257 8/27/11
48 mg....59 mg VG lot 257
100 mg....98 mg (this was my MFS 100 mg VG) 1/1/10

More results perhaps Monday. Thanks again to everyone for your support! Its been quite a week, but look how much we have done! I am indeed blessed to be part of this community, truly.

Kurt if you pm me with the current list I will happily update the original post for you.
Edit: I see classwife has taken care of it, but if you need an edit feel free to CC me as well. That way you have at least two mods that can update the OP (in case one of us is offline or busy elsewhere)

 

[symphynity]

Oh , is this thread still going? Sorry , I must have dozed off.......

 

[davelog]

As this is an evolving document, maybe the sample list should be moved to a google spreadsheet? Then Kurt would be able to keep it current without mod assistance.

 

[tiburonfirst]

i'm sure if you were among the people who have lot 256 or 257 your slumber might be less than peaceful.......

as sarge stated, the usefulness of this thread is far from over if people can stick to the topic. most of us appreciate kurt's continued involvement and the suggestions on how to be more proactive in detecting current and/or future mixing mistakes.

 

[Circumspice]

Back in February or March of this year, I bought a 30ml or 60ml bottle of 100mg PG based nic liquid from Gourmet Vapor. It was, of course, Box Elder brand. I noticed that the label had the strength stated as 100mg on one part of the label and as 48mg on another part of the label. Knowing that I had ordered 100mg, I operated under the assumption that it was 100mg and I diluted it accordingly. I wish I had saved the empty bottle so I would know what the lot number was. Now I wonder if that was an isolated incident or if it was symptomatic of routine sloppy and/or careless product packaging.

 

[Switched]

Woops! curious indeed.

 

[Fernand]

I bought a 30ml or 60ml bottle of 100mg PG based nic liquid from Gourmet Vapor. It was, of course, Box Elder brand. I noticed that the label had the strength stated as 100mg on one part of the label and as 48mg on another part of the label. ...Now I wonder if that was an isolated incident or if it was symptomatic of routine sloppy and/or careless product packaging.

Maybe it's labeled that way because you ordered "30 OR 60 ml"

 

[hubseven]

2 Questions:

1- Is this incident the tip of the iceberg?

2- Who is going to control the QC of our Industry? Only 2 choices- the industry itself or the government?

 

[kinabaloo]

Is this incident the tip of the iceberg?

I expect it is pretty much a on-off; there might be others but most companies will be doing a far better job, in this regard at least. Though many could be less blaise regarding flavorings and additives.

As BE is an intermediate supplier of nicotine base to other resellers (beside GV) there could be erroneous samples popping up via that route.

 

[retird]

Quality Controls need to be in place. By raising awareness about this issue, it brings it home to all of us that something may need to happend at the manufacturer and vendor level to assure tighter controls. I believe the "supply chain" has an obligation to the consumer to have proper controls and safeguards.

Having e-mailed the pre-mixed juice vendors I use and asking pointed questions about quality control, I have received the following:
1. Vague answers
2. They say it is the manufacturers responsibility.
3. Do not respond back with any answers.
4. They say that they get their juice components from reputable sources, but will not divulge them.

2 Questions:

1- Is this incident the tip of the iceberg?

2- Who is going to control the QC of our Industry? Only 2 choices- the industry itself or the government?

 

[cozzicon]

Hey guys...

Had a thought last night which I found somewhat profound regarding self regulation:

Who would have solved this problem faster? The FDA or the community?

I'm betting that the crowd-sourcing happening surrounding this issue is far faster that what could be achieved by a government agency.

Just a thought.

 

[Switched]

Hey guys...

Had a thought last night which I found somewhat profound regarding self regulation:

Who would have solved this problem faster? The FDA or the community?

I'm betting that the crowd-sourcing happening surrounding this issue is far faster that what could be achieved by a government agency.

Just a thought.

Well Mike it isn't too much of an Epiphany, we solve problems whilst the government merely creates them. Please don't expect them to walk and chew bubble gum at the same tine

 

[rolygate]

This has been a nasty incident. People have got sick, and there has been elevated risk which could have seen things turn out worse. And some got ripped of course, with half-strength product. It clearly demonstrated that one vendor had no idea what they were selling. As far as I can see, that must mean that the original manufacturer didn't know, either. And if they don't know what strength the materials are, it seems possible that there could be other shortfalls in the manufacturing process. Bottom line: neither the manufacturer nor the vendor knew what was in the bottle. It is probably naive to think they are an isolated case.

However, like the advances in medicine that come from wars, not everything is bad news. It has put pressure on vendors to do something about it. It has forced people - finally - to ask questions. And it will lead to change.

As an example, one trade association, in cooperation with a supplier, has bought a GC-MS machine and has a pro chemist to operate it (not as a result of this incident, but due to the increasing pressure to do something about quality control). Others will follow, and safety will improve.

Only the trade can fix this problem. If they don't, someone else will step in to fix it for them.

As far as the consumer is concerned, it might be worth keeping in mind that there is no such thing as cheap, good e-liquid. If products are made properly, from the right ingredients, and thoroughly tested, the end result is they are not cheap. They cannot possibly be cheap. You get what you pay for.

On the other hand, if you pay top dollar, you have a right to see the proof that you are getting what you pay for. The vendor needs to publish regular, comprehensive test results; or supply those results in confidence to the relevant consumer association. No ifs, buts, or maybes.

Unless they take steps to do something positive, the trade cannot possibly argue when a government agency steps in to regulate them instead.

It's absolutely true that many consumers want the cheapest deal and sod the consequences, but it is hard to see how this attitude should govern what the rest of us get supplied with. It will probably always be possible to get hold of cheap liquid, for those who just don't care. The rest of us need some form of quality controls on product sold through the normal channels. And we need the proof - talk is cheap.

 

[oldsoldier]

When I rode motorcycles I used to tell people if you have a 5 dollar head then by all means buy a 5 dollar helmet...
Getting a deal is always nice but sometimes it just makes more sense to pay for a quality product that has been properly tested and certified- especially when your health and well being are involved. We have a long way to go but this whole incident and Kurt's gracious assistance have spotlighted a shortcoming in our community. In my opinion that is the silver lining of this storm cloud. Awareness among consumers always leads to good things.

 

[Quick1]

Hey guys...

Had a thought last night which I found somewhat profound regarding self regulation:

Who would have solved this problem faster? The FDA or the community?

I'm betting that the crowd-sourcing happening surrounding this issue is far faster that what could be achieved by a government agency.

Just a thought.

Except it's not "solved". This particular incident has been identified and made public but as far as I can see nothing has been solved. There are and will be suggestions as to how to improve and prevent going forward but this has been an ongoing thing since day one. Chinese supply trails, manufacturing, safety, quality control. All of it.

The answer to your question is the same answer it has been since day one. FDA. Very less likely there would have been a problem to solve and if there was a problem it would have been acted upon (maybe not the popular or right act) way faster. Remember, the first posts on this surfaced a couple of months ago. The debate is if you want the FDA regulating this industry and/or it's consumables... Same debate that's been going on for a couple years now?

I see it this way. It's a market. On the big business scale of things it's a small market with extremely high risk. The risk is that it's unclear where it will fall as far as regulations go. For an idea of that, it looked like FDA might have been leaning towards controlling it like drugs. You don't see any small companies in pharmaceuticals due to the massive costs of entry and years to bring a product to market and the distinct possibility it will never go to market after years of investment (yes, China has some larger companies but they're not so regulated right?). So for now we have a lot of small "start up" type of companies. Most are simply vendors reselling and repackaging the same or similar hard products. For consumables we have large companies over there and similar to micro breweries over here. It's quite lucrative and at the same time it's viciously competitive and high risk.

My view is, without any regulation, consumers need to organize to some extent to "control and regulate" with their purchasing dollars. Unfortunately, implicit in that, is spending more dollars for the same stuff. Process, QC, test and verification, customer service, all cost money. If a vendor charges more than another to provide that while maintaining their profit margin everybody rushes to the least expensive one. Everybody wants "something" done about the problem and everybody wants "somebody" to do it. But when it comes down to it they're not individually so willing to invest in that. I only buy DeKang juice from a reputable local vendor (in my opinion, I have no verification). I have no evidence of DeKang's qc or standards but I feel confident I'm getting genuine DeKang juice from DeKang. It costs more. I get my hard goods from a different, reputable, local vendor. Over some time I've gained some insite to their processes, mfg, customer service and the people involved. Their stuff costs more.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not spending more primarily for the greater good of my fellow vapors and the industry. I do so in my own self interest. Naturally I believe that they are one and the same. It's my belief (and preference) that to self regulate consumers will have to organize. That would be in the form of something like a non-profit type of organization. That would require contributions (money) to sustain. Maybe I'm a pessimist but I don't see that happening based on the buying habits of the majority. It needs to be proactive and not reactive as in this case and all cases in the past so far.

Just my 2 cents and yes, this will be my last post in this thread.
I agree, it just side tracks/derails the specific topic/matter at hand of this thread.
Yes, I think it was inappropriate for a talk show host to knowingly interject that heated never ending side debate here (sorry coz).

 

[AzPlumber]

Hey guys...

Had a thought last night which I found somewhat profound regarding self regulation:

Who would have solved this problem faster? The FDA or the community?

I'm betting that the crowd-sourcing happening surrounding this issue is far faster that what could be achieved by a government agency.


Just a thought.

You are right Coz, but on the other hand I don't think the FDA would focus on discovery. They would just set the regulations that are designed to prevent this from occuring in the first place. It would still fall on the end user to discover problems, FDA or no FDA. The best we can hope for is the users to quickly sort out the bad seeds and discard them.

 

[kinabaloo]

that must mean that the original manufacturer didn't know, either.

There is no reason to to make such a suggestion.

 

[Kurt]

Got the last date I was waiting for. Samples I have run so far:

100 mg....48 mg (This one was mine, don't know lot #) VG 6/9/11
100 mg....121 mg PG lot 256 7/5/11
100 mg....272 mg VG lot 257 5/29/11
48 mg....78 mg VG lot 257 9/7/11
36 mg....51 mg VG lot 257 8/27/11
48 mg....59 mg VG lot 257 6/11/11
100 mg....98 mg (this was my MFS 100 mg VG) 1/1/10

One could say that the problems stem from this last summer, but it might be that those are just the ones I have gotten (6 or 7 samples is not really a statistical sample size). It could be if older ones that were stored in the freezer are tested they may be as problematic. I remembered wrong about mine. I thought I got it longer ago than I did. Checked my emails and found the order notice, and it is also from June.

 

[Urge]

rolygate wrote...

As far as I can see, that must mean that the original manufacturer didn't know, either. And if they don't know what strength the materials are, it seems possible that there could be other shortfalls in the manufacturing process. Bottom line: neither the manufacturer nor the vendor knew what was in the bottle. It is probably naive to think they are an isolated case.

Did I miss something, where did anyone say that the nicotine manufacturer had anything to do with this? Hasn't the discussion been about BE not diluting the pure nic properly?

Urge

 

[kinabaloo]

... Chinese supply trails, manufacturing, safety, quality control. All of it.

Not happy to see this comment. A Chinese copany has had no part in the scandal, despite what Roly has tried to suggest above.