Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[Kurt]

How about "Quality Control Research and Best Practices" as a forum.

While the thread is *really* worthy of being stickied- the overall discussion is really separate threads.

I agree, a subforum is best. Discussion of my curves is a separate thing from home-testing indicator method. And another possible thread on reading GC-MS. I am also toying with colorimetry for oxidation extent. I think Kin's hometest thread is good, but may get buried just in DIY.

Or we have this all in Technical Research, and allow vendors to post too. For QC, I do want their input, as we all try to figure out what is best for customers and vendors alike.

 

[NebulaBrot]

This just in:


From: Brad Bacher <customerservice@boxelderchemicalsupply.com>
Date: 20 November 2011 04:11:45 GMT
To: XXX@XXX.XXX
Subject: Subject: Box Elder Product Recall

Hello Everyone,

Due to recent indications by the public of high Box Elder nicotine strengths, we are issuing a product recall for any bottle of unflavored e-liquid that have been purchased between May and August 2011. We are investigating this problem to the fullest extent possible and we regret to inform you that we will not be selling nicotine products on Box Elder Chemical Supply until we can fully verify the nature and source of this problem. We are very sorry for any inconvenience this may cause you however, we are convinced that for our customers, company and industry, that a recall is the safest course of action due to the nature of this product.

We humbly request that if you have purchased a bottle of unflavored e-liquid from us between May and August 2011, that you place the bottle in a zip-lock plastic bag and mail it back to us.

We do ask that before you ship a product back to us that you contact us at customerservice@boxelderchemicalsupply.com or call 888-962-5877.

Please have the date of purchase or the order ID number and we will be more than willing to issue a Return Merchandise Authorization Number.

We also ask that if you return a product to us that you do so via the US Postal Service and that you send the product via Flat Rate Priority Mail to the following address:

Brad Bacher

1170 Sycamore Dr.

Brigham City, Utah

84302

Any refunds will be issued within 24 hours of the date of an arrival of product back to our facility and will include the cost of return

shipping if Flat Rate Priority Mail is used. We apologize for this problem and thank you for your attention on this matter.

Sincerely,


Brad Bacher

Box Elder Chemical Supply

I am happy to see that Brad has stepped up and is doing the right thing here. I truly wished he had done this on Cozz's show (the one with Kurt) in the first place. But, he IS doing it. We NEED our vendors to step up and take full responsibility for the products they sell to us. As Kurt seems to indicate BE's nic is of high quality (other then the measurement/transparency issues (and accuracy of content), hopefully when BE comes back (re-opens) they will be in a position to set a good example of the kinds of standards that prove quality control, accuracy and transparency the industry can and should be implementing and that ALL vaping customers can rely on with confidence.

I have never purchased any BE product (unless it was in some premixed juices I may have purchased from other vendors - I did purchase samples from GV and HV when each first opened), but if they do this right, and develop consistent accuracy policies and procedures and transparency, I might consider buying their product in the future.

Finally, I would hope that Brad takes the time to review and analyze the affected lots, look to see the ENTIRE range of GV and HV products that could possibly have included ANY nic from those lots, and offer ALL customers (GV and HV) that could possibly have product with nic from those lots - the same full recall offer. To go one step further, I think Brad could also review and analyze any and all vendors of other juices (his commercial nic customers) who purchased nic from the affected lots and notify them in case they may also choose to offer voluntary recall.

I cannot applaud KURT enough for all he has done, is doing and will continue to do. I support Kurt, have in the past and will continue to do so into the future. Kurt has been a long time advocate of "smart/responsible" vaping, was one of the "Experts" form the former "Ask the Experts" section here in ECF and was the very first person to really help me get started learning about some of the technical aspects of vaping (back when I first joined ECF and began my adventures into the vaping world). I think we could all learn from his example and take pages from his "book" (examples he has and continues to set) towards advocating safety in vaping, teaching and sharing accurate information with others, and establishing new levels of respectability, responsibility and professionalism within the overall vaping community and in the ways we interact with each other.

Thank you again KURT, vapors around the world owe you a debt of gratitude (at least IMHO).

 

[Paradisevap]

a chemistry 101 thread would be nice

 

[rkayw]

Kurt, do we all get a 'Certificate of Completion' from our awesome instructor after learning all of this chemistry? lol. j/k.

Never thought I'd have to learn this to vape, but... going back to analogs being an alternative is not an option on the table for me either.

 

[Kurt]

Kurt, do we all get a 'Certificate of Completion' from our awesome instructor after learning all of this chemistry? lol. j/k.

Never thought I'd have to learn this to vape, but... going back to analogs being an alternative is not an option on the table for me either.

Lol! Sometimes in academia the only certificate you get is the satisfaction of having learned something. I'm very glad you have learned something, and well enough to take some control for your own safety!! Priceless. I said from the beginning when I started vaping in Sept 2009: Vaping is ALL chemistry, and chemical engineering. That people are now seeing this, and realizing 1) how important it is, and 2) its not that hard with a little effort, makes me very happy indeed.

If you need to do chemistry, be the chemist. Do what a chemist would do, with all the details and care, even if the apparatus is simple and the procedure fairly elementary. Data is a precious commodity. Own it, and know that you can own it, and do everything in your power to be able to own it. If I can help people be able to do good analysis that they can own, that is one of the reasons I am here this go around in life.

 

[GoodDog]

ECF and all it's members and readers are very lucky to have you Kurt. This could/would have turned out differently without you here. I've cherished every word you have written in the DIY forum over the last 2 years and have grown to respect all that you do. Thank you!

 

[Iffy]

VSA #7

To those that have offered to contribute to defray Kurt's expenses:

Please PM me for his PayPal addy.

I contacted Kurt to obtain his permission to post this and he reluctantly agreed.

You deserve some rest, Kurt!

 

[Seabrook]

I am happy to see that Brad has stepped up and is doing the right thing here. I truly wished he had done this on Cozz's show (the one with Kurt) in the first place. But, he IS doing it. We NEED our vendors to step up and take full responsibility for the products they sell to us. As Kurt seems to indicate BE's nic is of high quality (other then the measurement/transparency issues (and accuracy of content), hopefully when BE comes back (re-opens) they will be in a position to set a good example of the kinds of standards that prove quality control, accuracy and transparency the industry can and should be implementing and that ALL vaping customers can rely on with confidence.

I have never purchased any BE product (unless it was in some premixed juices I may have purchased from other vendors - I did purchase samples from GV and HV when each first opened), but if they do this right, and develop consistent accuracy policies and procedures and transparency, I might consider buying their product in the future.

I am warmly touched that you have such a forgiving spirit as your essence.

However, Brad has no other choice than to step up and do something about his critical blunders as a vendor. As you can see by member’s posts, it’s gone international! It’s either do that or go bankrupt and/or get sued. Possibly worse, perhaps going to jail for negligence which ended in the death of another person.

I would rather see Brad bussing dishes at his local greasy spoon than going back to furnishing vapers with nicotine.

Now you may argue that “everyone deserves a second chance,” and usually I would agree, but not when people’s lifes depend on his skill and accuracy and he has failed so miserably in the past.

Besides, Brad already had a second and a third and fourth ( etc.) chance. People were emailing him like crazy about their bad nicotine – but ECF members aver that he wouldn’t respond to these emails – bad customer service were the first compaints he got.

This critical issue could have been caught and corrected months ago if he would have taken heed to the urgent emails being sent to him about the flaw in his product. In fact, I’m quite sure that he cut his own throat of his nicotine supplier venture.

Fool me once, shame on you
Fool me twice, shame on me

 

[NebulaBrot]

Seabrook, as with all/everyone, you are certainly entitled to your position. I choose to not focus on persecution and/or prosecution. What is done is done and I (along with everyone) certainly wish this never happened and that ALL venders, juice mixers, suppliers, etc would take 100% responsibility and make 100% certain that only the very best quality ingredients are used, perfectly measured, cleanliness standards maintained, transparency provided etc. However, in reality we know that not all do. There are various grades of ALL ingredients, accuracy of measurements, cleanliness standards (and/or lack thereof), etc. I am choosing to focus on what can be learned, gained, implemented, examples set, etc so that going FORWARD perhaps we can all learn from this debacle, place positive pressures on ALL vendors and suppliers, and move in constructive and productive directions to ensure our community and the commercial endeavors which supply us are ever closer to that idillic environment we might all hope we could have.

Your anger is understandable; I just choose to look forward in the hopes that our industry learns from this and makes sure nothing like this ever happens again.

 

[Kurt]

I agree with both of you! Brad needs some quiet time to sort out what went wrong. I wish him well, and do not wish him ill. But this is not the product to mess up like this, and I don't think he will be ready to return for some time. I hope this is a turning point for him, both at a business level and a personal level, but I do not think he is suited for this business.

@Gooddog: Thanks! We all worked very hard this week, and I feel so good about where the momentum of the industry is now going...as long as we keep working.

@Iffy: you are like my guardian angel!! Thanks to all that have been so generous. It means everything, and the money will be going to getting equipment and developing a testing and training program. Its all expensive, so anything people can do, I would be very grateful. I can use the university equipment for the time being, but obviously in the long term this is not prudent. I am, and have been, reluctant to start sounding like NPR, but it does all cost money.

I know I have been the spearhead for this, mainly because of credentials and access to equipment. But it was the first people that tested and knocked on BE's door that should also be getting huge credit. Warriors, all of you, and we would not be here now if not for you. So big thank you.

I am unplugging for the evening, read a book, listen to music, sleep well, and head into the lab tomorrow. So stay tuned...

 

[Kurt]

Seabrook, as with all/everyone, you are certainly entitled to your position. I choose to not focus on persecution and/or prosecution. What is done is done and I (along with everyone) certainly wish this never happened and that ALL venders, juice mixers, suppliers, etc would take 100% responsibility and make 100% certain that only the very best quality ingredients are used, perfectly measured, cleanliness standards maintained, transparency provided etc. However, in reality we know that not all do. There are various grades of ALL ingredients, accuracy of measurements, cleanliness standards (and/or lack thereof), etc. I am choosing to focus on what can be learned, gained, implemented, examples set, etc so that going FORWARD perhaps we can all learn from this debacle, place positive pressures on ALL vendors and suppliers, and move in constructive and productive directions to ensure our community and the commercial endeavors which supply us are ever closer to that idillic environment we might all hope we could have.

Your anger is understandable; I just choose to look forward in the hopes that our industry learns from this and makes sure nothing like this ever happens again.

I so like the way you think! Thanks for these thoughts.

 

[Seabrook]

Your anger is understandable; I just choose to look forward in the hopes that our industry learns from this and makes sure nothing like this ever happens again.

Nebula, I have no anger. I've never vaped Box Elder nicotine. What I have is confusion on how this could have happened over and over again with so many people starting in May of this year. The webmaster of my website and I were very careful on what host we went with it, because we know that emails and orders can be lost on a cheap, slow server -- but almost 6 months of this? I doubt it. Furthermore, I agree with Kurt,

Brad needs some quiet time. ... But this is not the product to mess up like this, and I don't think he will be ready to return for some time. ... but I do not think he is suited for this business.

 

[kinabaloo]

Bring in the right staff and it could work out. Put in place the right systems and training; add a testing procedure and make sure the tracking and computer systems are all efficient and backed up.

 

[rkayw]

I feel like all of this has put me right back at kinda the same apprehension I felt at quitting analogs. Vaping wasn't suppose to mean a degree in chemistry or all of this worry and so fourth.

I know...nothing is 100% safe sometimes, not even the air we breathe.

I believe it was Salem (or maybe it was Sea) that stated something similar to this effect...and I agree...if I could quit vaping and confidently feel I would not go back to analogs...I would stop vaping right now all together.

What started out as a way off analogs for me is feeling like a major PITA. And before anyone flames me for the way I'm feeling right now, trust me. I know!!
I like vaping.

That said...I believe I will get off of here and go vape some Grape Bubblegum while watching a late night movie. lol.

 

[Skeeter T]

I don't know if I'm out in left field on this, but ...

For arguments sake, let's say ...
Out of 1,000 vapers in the US, 10% of them read e-cig forums, which is 100 vapers per 1,000.
Out of those 100 vapers, 10% become aware of what this thread is all about, which is 10 vapers per 1,000.
Out of those 10 vapers, 10% of them will do some testing on their juice, which is 1 vaper per 1,000. (.1%)

So you don't like the numbers. Then lets change each 10% to 20%.
1,000 x 20% x 20% x 20% = 8 per 1,000 (.8%).
1,000 x 30% x 30% x 30% = 27 per 1,000 (2.7%).

After seeing these numbers does anyone think the vaping comunity (consumers) can mount enough effort to police the industry? It's noble a few in the community will seriously think about it, but will there be enough support, money, resolve and talent to actually get it going and maintain it? I don't know if it's possible, but miracles do happen.

Can the wholesale and retail vendors do it? I haven't heard any of them give their opinion on the matter yet. Maybe they're waiting to see what happens to BE or maybe they're contemplating it. Does anyone reading this know? I for one believe the destiny of the industry lies in their hands.

Someone in this thread said government should regulate the industry because they ASK hard questions. My observation of government regulation in industry is different ... they TELL you what you must do and they shut you down until you do.

 

[Seabrook]

Bring in the right staff and it could work out. Put in place the right systems and training; add a testing procedure and make sure the tracking and computer systems are all efficient and backed up.

Now that's a good idea, kin!

Brad could bring in a chemist and lab assistant to do the nic calculations, blending, etc. And if Brad just stuck to janitorial, disinfecting bottles, cleaning labware, post office runs, checking the mail, correspondence, etc., this could possibly work out to another position for him in his company.

 

[kinabaloo]

Now that's a good idea, kin!

Brad could bring in a chemist and lab assistant to do the nic calculations, blending, etc. And if Brad just stuck to janitorial, disinfecting bottles, cleaning labware, post office runs, checking the mail, correspondence, etc., this could possibly work out to another position for him in his company.

I was thinking more hands-off investor.

+++

The testing kits that gaining popularity now will catch issues much sooner and allow specific feedback to vendors - 'this liquid measured as x'. This is i think can play a big role. Just the knowledge that consumers have this power shuld focus the vendors more on ensuring accuracy in what is sent out.

 

[Katya]

Someone in this thread said government should regulate the industry because they ASK hard questions. My observation of government regulation in industry is different ... they TELL you what you must do or they shut you down until you do.

Are we talking about the same government that just classified pizza as a vegetable?

 

[DVap]

Kurt,

The amount of work you've taken on is staggering, and I think you can already see that the appreciation of the community along with the importance of the message can go a long way toward making it all worthwhile. Being at the center of a firestorm is at once exhilarating and exhausting.... it drives you forward but it rides you hard at the same time. Been there, done that with WTA.

I agree with you when you express preference for a volumetric syringe rather than a volumetric flask for doing an indicator titration. I wrote the original "hard" nicotine determination method around the classical burette titration, but in practice, I abandoned the burette in favor of a volumetric syringe very quickly. On nicotine standards I prepared, the syringe routinely gave results within 5% of the known concentration, probably more like 2%. I'll take the 10 uL graduations on a 1 mL syringe any day of the week.

When Þornbjörg started asking me questions back in 2009, I actually wasn't too enthused by his desire to simplify the procedure I wrote. It was probably the chemist in me chafing against the compromises in accuracy made by the simplified procedure. I was cooperative in helping him to simplify the procedure, but I recall I was pretty crabby with him about it at times (how dare someone make chemistry easy?!) But, here we are more than a couple years later and the test kit based on the simplified procedure is out there, available, and being used to generate useful, important, and sometimes alarming data. Meanwhile, my original method in all it's precision isn't really being used, it's just too expensive, requires a ton of glassware, and it's pretty hard for a non-chemist. Funny how things work out!

As you stated in so many words, the test kit will arm anybody who wants to know what they're being sold with the means to find out. it tips the balance of power from the vendor who would simply say, "Trust me", to the customer who can now say, "We'll see".

 

[McDougal]

This whole situation is why I have no problem whatsoever with FDA regulation of e-cig juice. To those who want to bring up taxation, that is a completely different issue at the state level.

The problem with shady companies is that they often change their name and the name becomes a shell for the same company. Hopefully, enough people are keeping an eye on this.

Kurt, thank you for doing the vaping community an incredible service, as your work on this and transparency regarding these companies is very, very important.