Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[mjradik]

Would it be a good idea to start a new thread for people who are doing home testing? I thought about doing this, but my kit hasn't come in yet. It could be a place where we could compare results and techniques. And we could discuss what juices seem to have added acids, etc...

Or does everyone just want to keep all that going in this thread?

I agree. To remain within TOS we should take test specific questions to a different/own thread. (it was late night night and we got a little side tracked.) This thread is about the BE thing

 

[Spazmelda]

Okay, so it seems that mjradik has a thread in the suppliers forum. Maybe we could move home test related discussions and results there?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-suppliers-forum/240767-diy-nicotine-test-kit.html

 

[swedishfish]

lol

+++

There was a reason for repeatedly pushing the (very real) high nic danger, even though it got annoying to the people here who who already knew it well, but I want to hold off a bit the explanation. But a big clue is the recent announcement; it wasn't aimed at people here but to a different audience.

I guess that's the cat out the bag. Not just for the needed recall, but the change of heart. No ploy (the danger is real and the errors were persistent); but it did mean being a bit of a pain in the .... for a while.

This post is going to make me crazy!

 

[markfm]

Back around page 98 is when I published results of my first try of the home kit. Perhaps a mod could do a sweep, move things to a new "Nicotine Home Testing and Results" thread?

 

[kinabaloo]

Okay, so it seems that mjradik has a thread in the suppliers forum. Maybe we could move home test related discussions and results there?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-suppliers-forum/240767-diy-nicotine-test-kit.html

Oh, just created one : http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...esting-e-liquid-strength-diy.html#post4609262

This can be more more general by not being supplier specific. Ok ? If so, some of the good posts that have been made here can be copied . moved across by their posters.

~markfm - yes, a good place to start from. I think we'll have to do it ourselves as it quite a lot of work. Maybe we just need the key bits.

The kit supplier forum can be for questions about the kit, how to use it etc. and the general one for discussing results; and variations / alternatives of testing.

+++

@swedishfish - there was one person who wasn't getting the message so I thought it important to keep that highlighted. Not saying it made a difference but that was the reasoning. To try for the recall and restart of operations at BE was imperative for the vaping world. Fingers crossed, BE can become an example of suuccessful self-regulation rather than a reason to close it down (quite likely the 'regulation' that would ensue).

 

[ScottB]

Absolutely!

However, if I am not mistaken depending on volume and documented accuracy, I believe there is a minimum of samples required to be tested, and if proper protocols are in place an inspection agency can randomly grad a bottle of liquid and test it - and come up with similar results. I am sure there is a bell curve out there for this. Folks in the know please chime in.

Regarding the bold, what "standard of compliance" are you referencing? Are you suggesting QA/QC certification by an outside agency, and if so - do you have an example(s) of such an agency?

I'm asking because I may have something to offer - but it would be a l-o-n-g post - and frankly, I don't want to type & post it if I'm thinking pomegranates when you're looking for apples... Feel free to PM if the explanation isn't in-thread appropriate... Thanks.

 

[rkayw]

Oh, just created one : http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...esting-e-liquid-strength-diy.html#post4609262

This can be more more general by not being supplier specific. Ok ? If so, some of the good posts that have been made here can be copied . moved across by their posters.

~markfm - yes, a good place to start from. I think we'll have to do it ourselves as it quite a lot of work. Maybe we just need the key bits.

The kit supplier forum can be for questions about the kit, how to use it etc. and the general one for discussing results; and variations / alternatives of testing.

+++

@swedishfish - there was one person who wasn't getting the message so I thought it important to keep that highlighted. Not saying it made a difference but that was the reasoning. To try for the recall and restart of operations at BE was imperative for the vaping world.

In a forum community of this size, there is always going to be one who doesn't get the message.
Press ahead...press ahead.

However, in thinking about this...I do like your leave no man behind determination, even if it did involve several beaten horses. lol. Sorry, I couldn't resist picking at you a little.

 

[oldsoldier]

I agree. To remain within TOS we should take test specific questions to a different/own thread. (it was late night night and we got a little side tracked.) This thread is about the BE thing

As each Registered Supplier is allowed 2 open threads in the suppliers forums a thread for test kit questions would not only be a service, but well within the TOS for suppliers. And also way more useful than a good morning what is the weather like where you live type thread

General, non kit specific, testing questions are probably still better asked in here or in this forum because we have Kurt's (and DVAP's) attention.

 

[markfm]

A new thread was started to pick up non be testing, in this forum area. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241231

If it is preferred we keep using this thread, no problem, just trying to avoid side-tracking it too much.

 

[rolygate]

We can transfer across all the posts that are not about BE, but that will need everyone's agreement.

 

[TinyTimberGal]

@Switched

Your sig line, "A vaper without a multi-meter is like a Dr. without a stethoscope" got me to thinking...

"A DIYer without a nic testing kit is like an Indy driver with a blindfold on"

 

[Kurt]

I have done tons of titrations in my life time on boiler water analysis and boiler feed water etc... and all were conducted in a small white ceramic bowl and never in the cylinder (greater surface area) a small dow corning bowl would be excellent for this. One will see the small change in colour happen instantaneously at the surface when the drop is added - very difficult to see in my opinion in a 10ml cyclinder.

After swirling with the glass stirring stick that one drop will in fact change to the "indicator" colour and maybe just require one more drop or two thereafter (in order to maintain the "indicator" colour) at the proper indication point. I have a test kit on order and will see how that works and will report my findings. IME the test sample should remain clear and if it has gone to a chaulky colour, you have gone too far.

@Kurt
The info above is not for nicotine perse but what I was taught. Am I in the ball park? As stated I will know more when I use my kit and post my findings.

PS: For folks that are colour blind, this kit is totally useless it goes without saying

It sounds reasonable. I am going to be doing some of these myself this week to see if I can come up with improvements on the kit. I think a cheap erlenmeyer with syringes is better, but I understand the shipping convenience of the grad cylinder. More on that later. thanks for the input, Switched!

 

[Kurt]

As each Registered Supplier is allowed 2 open threads in the suppliers forums a thread for test kit questions would not only be a service, but well within the TOS for suppliers. And also way more useful than a good morning what is the weather like where you live type thread

General, non kit specific, testing questions are probably still better asked in here or in this forum because we have Kurt's (and DVAP's) attention.

What about a DIY subforum, maybe "QC Research"? Or else sticky this thread? I foresee this expanding to discussions of various QC assays and methods, both pro and home-done.

 

[cozzicon]

What about a DIY subforum, maybe "QC Research"? Or else sticky this thread? I foresee this expanding to discussions of various QC assays and methods, both pro and home-done.

How about "Quality Control Research and Best Practices" as a forum.

While the thread is *really* worthy of being stickied- the overall discussion is really separate threads.

 

[Kurt]

The multiplier to convert acid volume added to reach the titration endpoint to a nicotine concentration doesn't have a name that leaps to mind. It's just a roll-up of all the chemistry and math involved... maybe call it a magic number?

When I developed the methodology on which the test kit is based, I had to match up the pH at titration endpoint with an indicator that would give the required color change within a drop of acid of the point where no more non-protonated nicotine was present. According to the graph I use showing degree of protonation of nicotine -vs- pH, this happens around pH 5.6. BTB leapt to the front of the pack for multiple reasons. It is yellow below pH 6 and blue above pH 7.6, and also possesses the green "warning range". At the concentration used, the amount of excess acid to get from pH 6 to pH 5.6 is quite minimal. Titrating with a meter and plotting acid volume -vs- pH shows this quite dramatically.

The chemistry hiding behind the acid volume required for the color change to yellow is simply moles of hydrogen ion added to the solution to achieve the color change. The moles of H+ added will equal the moles of nicotine present.

The chemist will ask, "How much eliquid was used, how much acid was needed, what was the normality of the acid, and what is the molecular weight of nicotine?". If 5.0 mL of 0.12N (normality being moles H+ per liter) acid was needed to reach yellow for 1.0 mL of eliquid, we have:

(5.0 mL x 0.12 moles H+/L) / 1000 mL = 0.00060 moles H+ required to reach yellow.

This means that the 1.0 mL of eliquid contains 0.00060 moles of nicotine.

The molecular weight of nicotine is 162.26 grams/mole.

So the mass of nicotine represented by 0.00060 moles of nicotine is simply:

(0.00060 moles x 162.26 grams) / 1 mole = 0.097356 grams of nicotine

Then:

(0.097356g x 1000 mg) / 1 g = 97.356 mg

and with 1.0 mL of eliquid used:

97.356 mg/mL

Using 2 significant figures, this gives 97 mg/mL.

It just so happens that 97.356 / 5 = 19.47 (a number familiar to users of the test kit).

If 2 mL of eliquid was used to get the same result, the math would work out to:

97.356 mg / 2 mL = 48.678 mg/mL

So the 19.47 multiplier can be viewed as per mL of eliquid used. (Simply apply the 19.47 multiplier and divide by mL eliquid used).

This is spot on. A chemist would not use a magic number. A chemist would use moles, molaries, volumes and molecular weight. Your numbers, DVap, are precisely what I get for the titration curve, so BTB was the logical choice. But not an easy one to use. It was only when I revisited a curve did I see you were right: you take the BTB to just yellow, not the green zone that would be the norm for a blue-yellow indicator.

 

[markfm]

Kinabaloo opened a separate non be specific thread for home test discussion. Rolygate is willing to move posts there if people agree (i do, of course).

 

[mj64]

Search on "gas chromatography services".

The perfumers apprentice, a popular flavor source for many, does gc/ms. BE used them in early Nov, at least, to do a test. A link to the results is back around pages 28 - 30 in this thread, one of the emails from Brad; it showed 12.8% nic, which is consistent with what the first pass dilution is supposed to be.

Thank you for this answer, and the reference. I'm seeing much more material that interests me now.

 

[GoodDog]

Here's the link to the GC/MS that The Perfumer's Apprentice did on 11/8/11 for Brad. http://www.boxelderchemicalsupply.com/110811pgtest.pdf

 

[AzPlumber]

How about "Quality Control Research and Best Practices" as a forum.

While the thread is *really* worthy of being stickied- the overall discussion is really separate threads.

I agree, a lot of important info will come of this and all of it should not be stuck in one thread.

 

[oldsoldier]

the idea is under advisement ( I passed it up for discussion )