Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[carpedebass]

It doesn't sit well with me either, even though I threw it out as an unknown earlier. As you say it would be easy to lower a sample. It would also be easy to fake getting a higher concentration if you supposedly ordered say, 36 mg/ml nicotine.

To fake a 270 mg/ml concentration would take quite a bit of really high (like pure) nicotine. If I did the math right (which is a big if...) then you could mix 80 ml of 100 mg/ml with *20 ml* of 990 mg/ml nic and get close to the concentration that the BE nicotine tested at. That's a lot of pure nicotine for someone to be handling. It's within the realm of possibility, but it doesn't seem likely. Since there is that shred of doubt, I don't blame BE for jumping all over it. That's what I'd do if were them. This possibility does need to be addressed if testing like this is going to happen in the future. I just can't think of how. If one does get a nic that seems to be off, you can't know until you open it. You can't test it until you open it, but if once you open it any testing becomes invalid because of the possibility of tampering, then it's never going to be possible to hold a company accountable in this way. (Catch 22ish situation)

Whatever is the case with the really high sample, it does seem clear from the other samples, that QC is not up to par.

Spazzy, we're saying exactly the same things here. If a self-regulating "authority" were to be in place, a proper chain of custody would not be too terribly difficult...especially with sealed bottles. Now, purchasing those samples unknown to the vendor is a different story. I'm not too sure how we'd get around that.

 

[laurel099]

Thanks to Kurt & Cozzi for doing this show. I think you guys did a wonderful public service for the community.

I think even if we toss out the 270mg result due to lack of chain of custody there are still clear quality control issues which Brad did actually admit to....besides saying he was a CEO about 12,000,000 times. Talks a lot...says very little...yup, he could be a politician

Whole thing is a mess. My hope is that this will make more vendors seriously look into testing their product.

 

[Spazmelda]

I was thinking about this some more while driving my daughter to school. If you think about it, the possibility of tampering is even more reason for the nic vendors to instigate some sort of self regulation. This would work out for their own protection. For example, if BE had records of testing from that lot, say they had had independent testing done on 3 aliquots from the first of the lot, middle, and end. Then they could go back to their records from independent lab x and say, "No, look here are our numbers for that lot. They all fall within +/- x mg/ml of the target nic concentration."

 

[markfm]

That would be good for them to do, but Kurt's results indicate that maybe, at best, two of the samples could have been mislabels (the ones that tested 48 and 51 mg/ml are close to 48mg). At least currently BE only seems to sell 36, 48, and 100 mg/ml -- is it credible that the other samples sent to Kurt are all from people out to cause BE harm?

 

[Spazmelda]

That would be good for them to do, but Kurt's results indicate that maybe, at best, two of the samples could have been mislabels (the ones that tested 48 and 51 mg/ml are close to 48mg). At least currently BE only seems to sell 36, 48, and 100 mg/ml -- is it credible that the other samples sent to Kurt are all from people out to cause BE harm?

No it's not credible. And the point here is that if BE is going to call shenanigans they need to have some numbers to back up their assertions. The evidence here weighs heavily that BE has been sending out nicotine that is not the correct concentration and if they don't have testing to show otherwise then calling shenanigans or tampering doesn't really fly with their customers or former customers.

 

[mgordon1100]

You can't test it until you open it, but if once you open it any testing becomes invalid because of the possibility of tampering, then it's never going to be possible to hold a company accountable in this way. (Catch 22ish situation)

This is why all testing will be ultimately invalid. The only way to test, is for a third party to walk into the facilities and take a random sample from their lots on site. Furthermore, testing them on site would remove any doubt from BE's standpoint. This is done all the time in other regulated industries.

 

[salemgold]

The ECF member that first posted about the issue with BE nic seeming wayyyyyyy too strong has been a member here at ECF for quite awhile and did not join here just to create that post. It would be very hard for me to swallow the sabotage pill here but no I have no proof otherwise for those of you that want to beleive that BE is the victim here. All that any of us really have to go on is what we believe to be the truth about the source of the nic. I think that most of us are smart enough based on our own opinions to steer clear of BE nicotine at least until there is some proof that very strict testing procedures are in place.

 

[JackSam]

All I have to say is, wow that's nuts.

BE's response is also equally 'wow that's nuts'.

 

[AzPlumber]

Is there any type of testing that would determine the origin of nicotine? In other words is it possible to determine if all of the nic in one sample is from the same source? It is my understanding that pure nic is actually about .997 or .998. Could that small .003 or .002 be used to indicate origin? Maybe I am in left field here but this whole thing is way out there too.

 

[mgordon1100]

You've got me curious, Plumber. What are you getting at?

 

[carpedebass]

The ECF member that first posted about the issue with BE nic seeming wayyyyyyy too strong has been a member here at ECF for quite awhile and did not join here just to create that post. It would be very hard for me to swallow the sabotage pill here but no I have no proof otherwise for those of you that want to beleive that BE is the victim here. All that any of us really have to go on is what we believe to be the truth about the source of the nic. I think that most of us are smart enough based on our own opinions to steer clear of BE nicotine at least until there is some proof that very strict testing procedures are in place.

I do not see anyone saying or even hinting that BE is a victim in this matter. Far from it!! I'm sure as hades not suggesting that! I just think that if we are going to truly hold their feet to the fire, we need to remove their lame attempt at an argument or excuse.

 

[davelog]

You've got me curious, Plumber. What are you getting at?

I'd hazard that he's going down the road of all vendors being serviced by the same supplier, a concern I have as well.

 

[Switched]

Is there any type of testing that would determine the origin of nicotine? In other words is it possible to determine if all of the nic in one sample is from the same source? It is my understanding that pure nic is actually about .997 or .998. Could that small .003 or .002 be used to indicate origin? Maybe I am in left field here but this whole thing is way out there too.

Anything can be traced back to origin in forensic science.

 

[mgordon1100]

I'd hazard that he's going down the road of all vendors being serviced by the same supplier, a concern I have as well.

Why would this be a concern. Isn't pure nic, just pure nic? It was my understanding that BE dilutes pure nic, just that it's at a different facility than the distribution center. Now, I understand that first email that they sent out. They "know" that they're receiving 100mg because they did the dilution. My concern is that he's discounting the possibility that there's a problem at the first site, whether it be lazy workers not measuring, or a mixing issue.

 

[RippleInStillWater]

Admittedly, I have only visited the thread here occasionally to catch up but one thing I haven't seen yet.....why the hell are they not suspended from the forum yet? Misrepresentation is one thing but endangering my life is not on the table as far as I'm concerned, DIYers have had possible poisoning without any repurcussions for The CEO....

 

[carpedebass]

Admittedly, I have only visited the thread here occasionally to catch up but one thing I haven't seen yet.....why the hell are they not suspended from the forum yet? Misrepresentation is one thing but endangering my life is not on the table as far as I'm concerned, DIYers have had possible poisoning without any repurcussions for The CEO....

Unless I'm mistaken that was covered Ripple. I don't think they're registered suppliers on the forum.

 

[RippleInStillWater]

Unless I'm mistaken that was covered Ripple. I don't think they're registered suppliers on the forum.

Thanks, like I said, I missed a lot -- but members have been 'Moved On' for a lot less......

 

[davelog]

Why would this be a concern. Isn't pure nic, just pure nic? It was my understanding that BE dilutes pure nic, just that it's at a different facility than the distribution center. Now, I understand that first email that they sent out. They "know" that they're receiving 100mg because they did the dilution. My concern is that he's discounting the possibility that there's a problem at the first site, whether it be lazy workers not measuring, or a mixing issue.

According to I'M THE CEO, they receive their nic at a little over 100mg, so that they can mix down as needed. If the supplier screws up and sends BE 298mg and labels it as 115 (or whatever their established incoming concentration is supposed to be) then it is in fact a failing of quality control in BOTH places, the China supplier and Box Elder. That failing at the source could impact other customers as well, I'm sure Box Elder isn't the only company that buys from them.

I'm reminded of audio cassettes back in the day - there were dozens of brand names, but only 3 or 4 companies in the world that actually made the media. Everyone else was just rebranding from the same sources. Nicotine could very well be the same way.

 

[mgordon1100]

According to I'M THE CEO, they receive their nic at a little over 100mg,

Then there's conflicting information out there. Yes, that's what I addressed in my post. They receive it at 100. The conflicting information is that BE also owns the manufacturing center, which is a different site altogether. This could have been avoided if all information was just given up front, as in that first email. He didn't say that he buys his 100mg from an outside vendor, or if he manufactures it himself from a different site. Site, as in location, not web site. (must be clear, you know ) At least, this is what I'm hearing yesterday. They dilute it down themselves, just not at the facility where they receive the 100mg.

This is why it makes sense to me now why they think they can be sure that their incoming is 100, because they themselves mixed it that way somewhere else.

 

[Switched]

According to I'M THE CEO, they receive their nic at a little over 100mg, so that they can mix down as needed. If the supplier screws up and sends BE 298mg and labels it as 115 (or whatever their established incoming concentration is supposed to be) then it is in fact a failing of quality control in BOTH places, the China supplier and Box Elder. That failing at the source could impact other customers as well, I'm sure Box Elder isn't the only company that buys from them.

I'm reminded of audio cassettes back in the day - there were dozens of brand names, but only 3 or 4 companies in the world that actually made the media. Everyone else was just rebranding from the same sources. Nicotine could very well be the same way.

... sorry Dave, they receive pure nic from their suppliers, which they cut themselves (BE) and then send 115-130 mg to their distribution centres