How do you defend this case? This argument concerns me

[dubd1c3]

This train of thought had me awake and staring at the ceiling.

BE AWARE: This is a devil's advocate thread. BE AWARE, we MIGHT have to address these scenarios in real life in the future.


It is well known that one of the arguments of anti-smoking groups is that vaping will recruit non-smokers into the world of nicotine use, and some of them may move on to smoking.

Suppose a case is brought against the e-cigarette movement in which an individual who has never smoked starts vaping. Let's leave out the legal aspect, this invididual was an adult. This person, Bob, started vaping because he was at liberty as an adult to decide to start using nicotine. He chose vaping because of his personal preference, but also because of the nature of vaping as a fun thing to do. Mainly, however, he chose it because the health risks were "generally regarded as low."

So now Bob is using nicotine, but over time he finds himself raising the concentration of his e-juice as he develops a tolerance. He is now vaping the strongest juice available. At this time, also, it could be argued that he has developed a dependence on nicotine.

Eventually Bob starts smoking and Bob is now a smoker.

So Bob brings a case against e-cigs saying e-cigs fostered an addiction that "forced" him to leave the low risk, low-delivery e-cigs in exchange for high-risk, high-delivery analogs. Bob says he started smoking against his own free will because of his addiction, and that it's e-cigs' fault.

What are the concepts that we need to think about regarding this case?

 

[Thyestean]

Well first there is the point that it is a completely ridiculous scenario because of the fact that everyone makes their own choices in life and those who try to blame them on others are just pathetic. Unfortunately there will always be those who don't want to take responsibility for their actions so yes it could be an argument some ..... would try to make at some point. But the argument itself is still baseless because, even if he could try and blame the e-cig industry for his nicotine addiction, the choice to move over to cigarettes to get the nicotine, while e-cigs are still available to him, would again be his own choice.

 

[Wafflestomper]

Thats the issue, I think. We have allowed the "powers that be" the ability to save us from ourselves.

People have to be allowed to make decisions and mistakes for themselves.

It could be argued that someone that is predisposed to "try vaping because its fun" would also be predisposed to "start smoking because its cool"

I could stop vaping, but I enjoy it. And I don't feel like there is a monkey on my back like smoking. I ran (fast-walked) a mile this evening and never could before...nicorette never gave me that... cold turkey never gave me that.

I guess I'm ranting now.

It boils down to freedom of choice and personal responsibility. If government wants to intervene, they can warn people and educate, and thats where their involvement should stop imhao.

I personally think a world with no risk, no uncertainty and no excitement would be as close to hell as we could get.

 

[kristin]

I agree your scenario is highly unlikely, as well, because smokers self-regulate. If they need more nicotine, they increase frequency, because they can't increase the nicotine content.

Only with vaping can you increase nicotine content. Once you get to about 3.6%, you are easily at cigarette level, so switching to cigarettes would be pointless - you could just vape more frequently at that point.

Most vapers are former smokers. The theory is that the 20 -25% who find something "lacking" in ecigs need other alkaloids and chemicals found in the tobacco. This would not be the case for your vaper-turn-smoker as he'd only have been exposed to nicotine and not the tobacco alkaloids.

Finally, if your vaper NEVER smoked, cigarettes are a harsh, nasty taste compared to e-liquid. He'd be far more likely to turn to a flavored, smokeless tobacco product.

There simply is no logical reason to expect vapers to turn to smoking - it's the same as with ST. Research in Sweden has shown that ST use (snus) is overwhelmingly a barrier to smoking and is NOT a gateway.

However, in the extremely unlikely event that your case actually happened, the ecig companies could easily argue that ecigs are advertised as having nicotine and nicotine is well known to be highly addictive. Additionally, the dangers of smoking have been well-documented and your vaper could have chosen to use a smokeless alternative or tried to quit rather than resort to the most deadly product on the market. So, there is just no justification your vaper/smoker could make for choosing cigarettes over all of the other alternatives available to him.

 

[rothenbj]

I agree your scenario is highly unlikely, as well, because smokers self-regulate. If they need more nicotine, they increase frequency, because they can't increase the nicotine content.

Only with vaping can you increase nicotine content. Once you get to about 3.6%, you are easily at cigarette level, so switching to cigarettes would be pointless - you could just vape more frequently at that point.

Most vapers are former smokers. The theory is that the 20 -25% who find something "lacking" in ecigs need other alkaloids and chemicals found in the tobacco. This would not be the case for your vaper-turn-smoker as he'd only have been exposed to nicotine and not the tobacco alkaloids.

Finally, if your vaper NEVER smoked, cigarettes are a harsh, nasty taste compared to e-liquid. He'd be far more likely to turn to a flavored, smokeless tobacco product.

There simply is no logical reason to expect vapers to turn to smoking - it's the same as with ST. Research in Sweden has shown that ST use (snus) is overwhelmingly a barrier to smoking and is NOT a gateway.

However, in the extremely unlikely event that your case actually happened, the ecig companies could easily argue that ecigs are advertised as having nicotine and nicotine is well known to be highly addictive. Additionally, the dangers of smoking have been well-documented and your vaper could have chosen to use a smokeless alternative or tried to quit rather than resort to the most deadly product on the market. So, there is just no justification your vaper/smoker could make for choosing cigarettes over all of the other alternatives available to him.

Totally agree Kristin, with a few extra points. I'd like to question the highly addictive quality of nicotine. Even on this forum, we accept this as fact, but I question that premise. I'm sure for some it has addictive qualities, but for many it appears easy to break.

I've read many accounts on here that once they started vaping, they reduced their nicotine level to low or zero. I couldn't give up smoking entirely for over six months and the amount I smoked was increasing even though I started vaping 36mg liquid.

Then I tried Swedish snus and never had another cigarette. I only use two to four portions a day and now vape intermittently, at very low nic levels. I think I saw no nic snus the last time I was shopping, I may buy that as a test.

I'm sure the other tobacco alkaloids are my main "fix" from tobacco, not nicotine. The habit part is also big, I still like vaping while consuming my favorite beverage, but not nearly at the level I did as a smoker.

I think a survey of longer term vapors could be interesting. I'm wondering how many are increasing nic levels or frequency as opposed top decreasing. So many have quit smoking so easily using e cigs that may or may not deliver nic efficiently, I am curious.

One last comment, there are many more failures than your survey suggests. I know quite a few. The biggest issue I've found are these expensive, poorly designed models often bought off the radio or in malls. I wish it were easier to get the good kits. We'd have a lot more converts.

 

[maureengill]

Good points, but I also think that a big part of the addiction is that most of us have been smoking for 20+ years....do anything for 20 years and you just become accustomed to it. Thus making not smoking even harder. Vaping helps us break our addictions 1 piece at a time.

Maureen

 

[PaulB]

It may be beside the point, but one part of the scenario that strikes me as unlikely is "... but over time he finds himself raising the concentration of his e-juice as he develops a tolerance." Tolerance doesn't seem to happen with nicotine, or else we'd all be six-pack-a-day non-filter smokers after a few years. And, I've not noticed over the months any rise in my own need for, or ability to handle, higher mg. juices over extended periods.

At any rate, I guess the world is large enough that someday, somewhere this may occur, or maybe has already occurred. But I think it would be a rare occurrence. Vaping seems way too fussy and difficult to get the hang of to be a habit casually taken up for its own sake, like pipe-smoking (and how many people still take that up anymore as their initial way of getting nicotine?).

 

[mianker]

I agree with what Kristin wrote as well as Wafflestomper regarding personal choice and responsibility.

 

[dubd1c3]

All these responses are totally awesome. I'm so glad so much thought went into them. I'm also glad nobody was just like "that'll never happen vaping rulezz" etc. People analyzed the different parts and looked at the likeliness of various parts of the scenario along with other things.

The types of responses were exactly what I was looking for. More are welcome.

It appears counterclaims are easy to make in this case, which is a good thing. I would have added that due to the nature of absorption of e-cigs they are intrinsically less addictive.

Thanks all!

 

[C6Silver]

Something else to consider from a non-smoker's point of view (i.e. me). When I tried vaping I selected non-nicotine versions of smoke juice and then made my own. The point is that there is no real reason for a non-smoker to seek out nicotine versions of e-juice since there isn't an addiction that must be satiated. Of course this doesn't preclude a non-smoker from going the nicotine route, but it is so unnecessary that I'd think the majority would go the non-nic route as I did.

 

[JerryRM]

A real life story. I have two nieces, one in her late 20's who smokes and her younger sister who is in her early 20's who doesn't smoke.

I have been encouraging my older niece to quit smoking and start using e-cigs. I have let her try a KR808D-1, in my efforts to get her to quit. So far she is not interested in the e-cig.

The younger one was fascinated with the e-cig and wanted to try it. I said no, that she is not a smoker and I didn't want her to start using nicotine. I explained to her about nicotine addiction. That was the end of her interest in the e-cig.

However they are both adults, and free to make their own decisions. I can't force the older one to switch and I can't stop the younger one, should she decide to use an e-cig.

If cigarettes harm the older one, it's her choice, not mine, not cigarettes. Should the younger one someday decide to use e-cigs, it would be her choice, not mine and not the e-cigs.

Every adult has the right to make their own choices, good or bad and if they are bad choices, they have no reason to blame anyone but themselves. I chose to smoke, I chose to quit smoking and I chose to use an e-cigarette, no matter where that decision leads to.

If "Bob", (a non smoker), starts using an e-cig and then starts smoking cigarettes, then as far as I am concerned, Bob is an idiot, end of discussion.

My two cents worth.