How to Get Around Future E Cig Taxes

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CMD-Ky

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OK, then I'll go on record as being in for a four figure dollar amount should CASAA make a commitment to pursuing this route.

I wonder if we should start a new thread, perhaps in the CASAA section of the forum?

It seems we are straying rather far off the original topic of "How to get around future e-cig taxes".

When CASAA makes real commitment to such a litigation proposal, I will participate. My guess is that they will opt for lobbying and massaging rather than boat-rocking and irritating the power.

Is staying on topic required? If so, I will be banned. :>) Now, for myself, I see discussions regarding the confrontation of the government's imposition of taxation to be an effective manner to avoid taxes - if followed by action. Without action, well....probably no.
 

CMD-Ky

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Is there any reason to think that they(bans) are not legal? Any reason to think vapers could win in a lawsuit?

Most of the "bans" in Kentucky are related to the public health, the proverbial "greater good". I think challenges to these are not likely to be successful due to the amount of money it would take to show that there is no rational nexus between the ban and the public health. We have so slipped over the edge that a concept that a private business may have an right to make its own rules for its customers is nearly anathema, incomprehensible, to the public.

These public health bans have a wealth of emotional, if not intellectual appeal. They are "for the children" or for those downtrodden victims who have no choice but to endure the rampaging harm done to them. Emotionally engendered laws or ordinances are so easy for pandering politicians simply because they require, perhaps even have as a prerequisite, no thought.

Consequently, I think "ban" challenges are more costly than beneficial. [All obligatory disclaimers are included by reference in to this post.]
 

Bad Ninja

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Most of the "bans" in Kentucky are related to the public health, the proverbial "greater good". I think challenges to these are not likely to be successful due to the amount of money it would take to show that there is no rational nexus between the ban and the public health. We have so slipped over the edge that a concept that a private business may have an right to make its own rules for its customers is nearly anathema, incomprehensible, to the public.

These public health bans have a wealth of emotional, if not intellectual appeal. They are "for the children" or for those downtrodden victims who have no choice but to endure the rampaging harm done to them. Emotionally engendered laws or ordinances are so easy for pandering politicians simply because they require, perhaps even have as a prerequisite, no thought.

Consequently, I think "ban" challenges are more costly than beneficial. [All obligatory disclaimers are included by reference in to this post.]

No.
It's agenda based legislation hidden behind the lie of public health.
The public is too concerned with the latest spin, and being "politically correct" they they don't even care to notice what's happening under their noses.
It's all about profit and control of money.

The ONLY way to prevent this from happening is to vote the criminals out of office.

We can't play the "lobby" game and win. We are seriously out gunned.
I haven't see anything from CASSA that impresses me.
I'd love to see their gameplan. I'd love to get on board, but it takes more than talk and a loose, vague plan of action.

Id like to see CASSA get behind a candidate for an elected offic. Someone who understands our cause.
Even on a local level.
Show me something substantial and show me the game plan or count me out.
I don't blindly follow anything.
 

Rossum

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When CASAA makes real commitment to such a litigation proposal, I will participate. My guess is that they will opt for lobbying and massaging rather than boat-rocking and irritating the power.
Right. To some extent, I see their efforts as oiling the machine of politics, something I'm not very keen on.

Is staying on topic required? If so, I will be banned. :>)
No, I don't think it's required, but I personally think we should self-regulate a bit, in a manner that's conceptually similar to to vaping respectfully in public.

Now, for myself, I see discussions regarding the confrontation of the government's imposition of taxation to be an effective manner to avoid taxes - if followed by action. Without action, well....probably no.
What kind of action do you suggest? Aside from stocking up on nic base, DIYing, and making it quite clear to them they will never get another penny in those kinds of taxes from me, I'm not sure what other action is possible. On the federal level, the government proved as early as 1794 that it was willing to use force against those who refuse to pay its taxes.

On a personal level, I can put away enough nic to last me the rest of my life for about what I would have spent on cigarettes in 3 months.
 

rolygate

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Yup. Where is CASSA on all this? A challenge based on zero-Nic Vaping should be an easy win.

CASAA does what they can with the resources they have. In fact they do a brilliant job, considering the restrictions they face.

The last legal action that featured vaping vs the US establishment cost half a million dollars. It was won, but the cost ruined those who started it, both financially and reputation-wise. Legal actions in this area cost a fortune, far too much to get crowdfunded. The only people who can possibly afford it are 'big vapor' and if they wanted to spend their cash on that then they would have done so.

Poorly-funded legal challenges tend to be badly conducted and fail. We really don't need fails as it creates case law. A sub-par challenge in Sweden just failed, I believe, and that sets a nasty precedent that badly hurts everyone. The lesson is: don't even consider a legal challenge unless you have $500k or are challenging a village-size authority who clearly acted in a way that the next biggest court will strike down before lunch on day 1 of a hearing.

When there are 50 or so States or 28 countries involved - about the same sort of problem - then the best way to fight it is not 50 times, but once at the federal level. It costs a fortune and should only be attempted by an entity or entities that have millions disposable and can afford to set up the best challenge possible. That isn't CASAA, they do a great job in their field, which is advocacy and related efforts.
 

caramel

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Mhhh am I alone here with the plan of "getting around future taxes" by not using the product (at all or in very limited quantities)?

I am pleased to inform you that I'm on 0mg for three days now and it works fine. My main problem was that without any nic the flavor feels muted and stale. I've already discussed in a different thread my belief that nic acts as a "flavour enhancer" - like MSG does for food taste.

My attempts to fix this via "more flavor shots" failed. Something was missing. And I found the solution - menthol. Add to the liquid a very small droplet of very diluted menthol. It has to be in such quantity that you cannot identify it as being there by taste/flavour. I.e. if you feel menthol taste when inhaling, you used too much. It has to be completely overpowered by the main liquid's flavor. And voila - bang! - it works like taste/flavor enhancer. Your liquid is again fresh / sparkling like it was with nic,

So my plan now is to keep on this recipe until vaping becomes a completely optional activity for me - to be had only in relaxing environments at certain moments like a good espresso.

I also bought a Kayfun and wire. At this type of usage it should outlive me.

Think about it. If I could do it in 3 months, you probably have plenty of time left too before "The Deeming".
 

DC2

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So my plan now is to keep on this recipe until vaping becomes a completely optional activity for me - to be had only in relaxing environments at certain moments like a good espresso.
Even though I still use nicotine I reached this point a few years ago.
And although I could drop the nicotine, I have no intention of doing so because of the potential health benefits.
 

NancyR

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For those who think just buying your e-liquid online or DIY supplies is the way around proposed regulation, I can't speak for every state, but where I live here in WA that won't cut it either.

A short run down of what WA state is trying to pull

A complete ban of online sales
A 95% tax rate on all e-cig related sales
No flavors other than mint, menthol, and wintergreen
No juice over 10 mg nicotine level
If caught bringing it in to the state they can confiscate the mode of transport
If caught selling or intending to sell e-juice without proper licensing it would be a class C felony

Now while not strictly covered, the way the proposed bill is written would make criminals out of those of us who DIY even

Now while this is only currently in WA, you better believe if any state manages to get something this assine passed other states will follow suit
 

Rossum

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Mhhh am I alone here with the plan of "getting around future taxes" by not using the product (at all or in very limited quantities)?
Philosophical question: What else are you willing to give up because busy-body nannies have decided it's bad and should be banned or at least be subject to confiscatory "sin" taxes?
 

caramel

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Philosophical question: What else are you willing to give up because busy-body nannies have decided it's bad and should be banned or at least be subject to confiscatory "sin" taxes?

Gasoline. I want to see confiscatory taxes on employers that insist on physical presence for jobs that can be performed through telecommuting.
 

Bad Ninja

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The CASAA bashing in this thread is a bunch of crap.

No bashing. Observation.
Dial back the knee jerk anger.

I have an honest legitimate opinion, and even made a valid suggestion.
Is CASSA above any honest comment that isn't blindly praising them? IMHO they could use a better stratagem.

With looming taxation and eminent legislation, I would love to see something besides signing petitions.
Backing a few political candidates would do so much more, than sideline demonstrating.

How do you think corporations get legislation passed?
You think they sign petitions?
 
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