How to Get Around Future E Cig Taxes

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kristin

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CASAA's past, present and future actions will have NO effect on the future of vaping. CASAA has NO influence when dealing with "BIG" business/government, which could care less about CASAA and their signature/letter based opinions. CASAA=FRUITLESS ENDEAVOR

EDIT: I do support CASAA, but I feel that they will have little to no effect on the future/regulations of ecigs.

I'm glad to hear you still support CASAA, but you are actually wrong that CASAA hasn't had or will never have an effect on the future of vaping.

During the comment period, CASAA met with the OMB and had a significant impact with the board. While industry groups got their allotted 15 minutes, the OMB kept CASAA for well over the alloted time, asking questions and we saw the results in the FDA actions. (We can't ever know if CASAA's comments and answers to the OMB's questions were what made the difference, but we do know that the OMB took CASAA very seriously, based on what happened at their meeting.)

State-level actions all over the country have been stopped with the "signature/letter based opinions" coming from hundreds of members. Dr. Burstyn's study, funded by CASAA members, has had an impact and been used as a source in subsequent studies. While CASAA hasn't been able to get on panels as experts yet, CASAA has spoken to numerous government bodies regarding the issue. CASAA networks with those who travel in the same circles as those in power.

Making a name and being officially recognized takes time and CASAA has only been around 5 1/2 years. Lawmakers and policymakers need to know CASAA isn't some fly-by-night that won't be around next year. CASAA has to have a large membership to point to. These things take time, but once it hits the tipping point, CASAA will be all the more influencial. What CASAA has managed to build and accomplish in such a short time is noteworthy and not something to easily dismiss. Many other groups have come and gone, yet through the shear willpower of a few dedicated people, CASAA has not only stayed together, but grown.

But there is still a lot of work to do and without vapers' support, it won't be possible. If people don't join to add to our numbers and don't support CASAA, they are just guaranteeing that CASAA will have little to no effect. It becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy. So, it's good that even if you have doubts, join and at least add to CASAA's numbers and the power of CASAA's voice, so we at least have a chance.
 
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kristin

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It's the way the world turns. We have to live with the levers we have. Big Vapor will decide how and when to get involved in legal action. So will CASAA and ACLU. We have to live with that or get involved in those organisations. Or start our own.

A new Vapor Advocacy group like you suggest would need dedicated people to set it up, and a huge amount of money and expertise. And everyone who might have an interest would also have their own opinions on the best way to proceed. Like whether to spend their time and money on fighting every law, or concentrate their fire on a handful of laws as an example. Should it go after public vaping laws or concentrate on laws that will stop vaping completely. A lot of vapers don't care about public vaping laws or think they are the least of our problems. Others think that is the thin end of the wedge and needs to be implacably opposed. Should we fight for a goal of ensuring that some form of vaping survives, or take an all or nothing approach.

There are a thousand opinions out there. People might not give money to a group that didn't take the approach they favor. Do we have a thousand groups representing all the possible approaches?

The good thing about existing groups, like vendor organisations or CASAA is that they have a cohesive agenda. If we want to change their approach then become active in those groups. Or start our own if we feel we can do better.
Just to piggyback on this...

When CASAA first started, we fought all of the local laws, but we became overwhelmed. Right now CASAA is fighting STATE-level laws in over a dozen states. Unfortunately, we are a 9 member board of unpaid volunteers, who have jobs and families that keep us from traveling to every state. It would be a full time job for at least 10 people to go to every state right now, imagine if we were trying to go to every county and town - there are several dozens right now. Even if we could, local lawmakers are generally wary of outside groups. They react far better to their own constituents fighting a law. Just sending an out-of-state "lobbyist" to fight for vapers in an area isn't very effective - locals MUST participate and step up to fight. Our "wins" have all been in places where local vapers stepped up and spoke out. They called and wrote their lawmakers and showed up at meetings. That's far more effective than one CASAA lobbyist calling, writing or speaking.

CASAA tries to empower it's members to fight the local fights. A dozen or more local groups have formed to fight againt both state-level and local-level laws. (I even formed WSAC, which is a group to fight local laws locally in Wisconsin.) This is what vapers need to do, because CASAA cannot do it for them. We'd need millions of dollars to be able to afford to hire and train staff or hire lobbyists in every state, to fight every battle on the state and local level. Most of our donations are in the $5 to $10 range, which results in CASAA having only around $200,000 total. We'd need to get that amount, if not more, every MONTH to fight every proposed law at every level.

It's important to remember that CASAA was formed by vapers right here on ECF. But we weren't formed or set up to be a lobby organization. We were formed to educate people and spread factual information about vaping and tobacco harm reduction. We ended up fighting these laws by default because no one else was. But our process always involved getting local vapers to act and just trying to support THEIR efforts, not be the ones doing the fighting for them. We simply don't have the manpower or funding to act in that capacity and unless we start getting about 10 times the funding and 10 times the volunteers, I don't see us ever doing that.

As a side note, starting an organization is not easy. A lot of people will say they are all for it, but when it's time to do the dirty work, very few can be found or they don't stick around long. It's a huge amount of work. CASAA only stayed together because of a very few dedicated people who were willing to keep it going. We started with 13 elected directors, but only half of them ever did anything. Today, just 2 of the original directors are still involved with CASAA. It takes a lot of personal time and some directors are working 40+ hours a week just to get things done. (We are finally getting to the point where we can afford to be looking into hiring some help. But even that takes time vetting and training people - which we'd have to do.)

Starting WSAC, it's been hard to get people to join. After 2 months we have less than 300 registered members, even though there are at least 4,000 vapers in the Wisconsin vaping groups on Facebook. People are more occupied doing "hand checks," talking about their devices and liquids and posting cloud videos. We haven't even started asking for donations. People just have to fill out a form with their name, email and county and they won't even do that. Unfortunately, people generally don't get involved until a ban or law hits their own town and even then, just 1% will actually step up and do the work that needs to be done.
 
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Bad Ninja

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Kristin, instead of fighting the politicians from the outside, why hasn't CASSA found local politicians that support our rights, and supported them?
Not every candidate is our enemy. Wouldn't this be cheaper, easier and more effective than battling from the outside?
Lobbying elected officials is much too costly. Supporting a fresh candidate, not so much.

This is how our opposition gets ahead of us.
Their candidate wins while we play catch-up.

IMHO, we should start looking at the long view.
 

kristin

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Again, manpower. Who is going to travel to 50 states and spend weeks meeting with individual lawmakers? Or even spend hours and hours making the phone calls to find a sypathetic lawmaker? Even when we do get a lawmaker on our side, getting vapers involved is still essential. In Wisconsin last year, we had a bill proposing to exempt e-cigarettes from the smoking bans. Wisconsin vapers should have showed up in Madison in droves to speak and support this law, but about 10 people showed up. The law didn't pass. Another lawmaker is proposing a similar law this year. We started a petition to support it and so far, only around 1,600 have signed it. (As I mentioned, at least 4,000 vapers are in Wisconsin Facebook groups.)

If you mean supporting an actual candidate, CASAA isn't allowed to do that with 501c4 status. We cannot endorse candidates and even if we did, most people vote on overall agreement on issues not related to vaping. Very few people will vote for a candidate based on one issue. We've seen this in our FB group when people have tried to endorse a candidate based on their vaping stance. Unless they can agree on the other issues the candidate supports or opposes, as with any other candidate, support is 50/50. Just because they support vaping doesn't change that.

(As an example, while I supported the bill in Wisconsin last year, I never would have voted for it's author. He's a bit of a nut and some of his other policies and proposed bills were horrendous!)
 
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zoiDman

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Kristin, instead of fighting the politicians from the outside, why hasn't CASSA found local politicians that support our rights, and supported them?
Not every candidate is our enemy. Wouldn't this be cheaper, easier and more effective than battling from the outside?
Lobbying elected officials is much too costly. Supporting a fresh candidate, not so much.

This is how our opposition gets ahead of us.
Their candidate wins while we play catch-up.

IMHO, we should start looking at the long view.

If a person wants to Support a Pro-Vaping Candidate, I think that is Great.

But I question if we have Enough Time to change the makeup of a State Senate or the Federal Congress thru the election process?
 

beckdg

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If you Feel that you have No Representation when it comes to e-Cigarette/e-Liquid Policy, perhaps you should read the Post above this one.
Rofl... and perhaps you should read the one following.

And perhaps you realize our elected "representatives" represent their own agendas?

And perhaps you realize WE (vapers, CASAA, Mlitia, etc.) REPRESENT OURSELVES? (As the lovely Kristin pointed out for us.)

Though perhaps you don't realize the arrogance is misplaced? Perhaps you don't realize I'm not from this state and haven't been here long enough to vote in a primary yet? Perhaps that hasn't dawned on you yet? Perhaps it's possible to take time out of my busy schedule to send emails and not remember names I don't give a squat about?

But since you happen to have all the time in the day, perhaps you can enlighten some people instead of attempting to belittle them on the basis of facts you know nothing about pertaining to them?

Oh... nvm... :glare:

I highly respected you at one point. Maybe not so much now...

Tapatyped
 

jseah

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With all the debate about whether e-cigs should be considered a tobacco product and regulated by the FDA, what's more concerning is whether the feds and states will beginning taxing e-cigs like other tobacco. The obvious target for taxation is e-juice, since it is nonsensical for them to tax the actual vaporizing gear (they don't currently tax you for buying a pipe or cigarette papers. The problem is that this will effectively drive out all of the small companies who make e-juice since I doubt they would want to deal with the headache of getting the requisite tax stamps for each state, and this would also limit where you could buy from to just local vendors, not to mention doubling the price of the e-juice we are buying today.
 

philoshop

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The only real concern for most politicians today, particularly at the state and federal level, is re-election. This is what consumes their waking/working hours, and guides them as they make decisions that affect all of us. It takes the force of a lot of voters to effect any change in their thinking on any specific issue. If there aren't the numbers, they won't change their views.
Getting a seat at the big table of vaping discussion is important, but having a crowd of people standing behind that seat is critical to getting anything done at this point.
 

zoiDman

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Rofl... and perhaps you should read the one following.

And perhaps you realize our elected "representatives" represent their own agendas?

And perhaps you realize WE (vapers, CASAA, Mlitia, etc.) REPRESENT OURSELVES? (As the lovely Kristin pointed out for us.)

Though perhaps you don't realize the arrogance is misplaced? Perhaps you don't realize I'm not from this state and haven't been here long enough to vote in a primary yet? Perhaps that hasn't dawned on you yet? Perhaps it's possible to take time out of my busy schedule to send emails and not remember names I don't give a squat about?

But since you happen to have all the time in the day, perhaps you can enlighten some people instead of attempting to belittle them on the basis of facts you know nothing about pertaining to them?

Oh... nvm... :glare:

I highly respected you at one point. Maybe not so much now...

Tapatyped

Of course we Represent Ourselves. This is what Anyone should do when they are in a Minority or when their Representatives Views run counter to what a person wants.

This is I think where the Clash occurred when I disagreed with others that said we are Not Represented.

If Self Representation doesn’t work or make a difference, then I wouldn’t Support advocacy groups like CASAA or SFATA. But I believe they can.

But Self Representation depends on the Individual playing an Active Role. And that is something I think Vapers could do a Better job of if they Really want their Voices to be Heard.
 

zoiDman

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The only real concern for most politicians today, particularly at the state and federal level, is re-election. This is what consumes their waking/working hours, and guides them as they make decisions that affect all of us. It takes the force of a lot of voters to effect any change in their thinking on any specific issue. If there aren't the numbers, they won't change their views.
Getting a seat at the big table of vaping discussion is important, but having a crowd of people standing behind that seat is critical to getting anything done at this point.

If there was Some Way we could use that to Advantage.

That would be Very Powerful.
 

zoiDman

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As a minority you'll have to accept that you're at the receiving end and look at other venues.

There was a Member in this Thread that said Her Rep was doing a Pretty Good Job and his views on e-Cigarettes seemed Reasonable.

What would be Wrong with doing something that might Help Him get Re-Elected?
 

AndriaD

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There was a Member in this Thread that said Her Rep was doing a Pretty Good Job and his views on e-Cigarettes seemed Reasonable.

What would be Wrong with doing something that might Help Him get Re-Elected?

I think you must be referring to my comment about my own congressman for the area I live in. I did something for him: I voted for him back in November, and so did my husband, as a direct result of my new-found vaper status, and looking into the kind of job he's doing. Before I was a vaper, I just voted for the opposing party, whoever was running, as a strictly knee-jerk reaction. Fortunately, he's a fairly young guy, at least in terms of so many congress and senatorial critters; I doubt if he's 50 yet, but probably past 40.

I base my opinion of his job-worthiness on the fact that after I sent him one of those letters with my vaping/quit-smoking story, he sent me a personal email with his opinions, which were that no further federal regulation ought to be imposed on e-cigs; if *any* further regulation is needed, he feels it should be on a state and local level. Now I do realize that he more than likely did not actually type that email himself, it was one of his staffers -- but he addressed all the points I made very succinctly, thus indicating that not only did he read my msg, he actually considered it, and his reply. It's hard to ask for much better than that. So he got my vote and my husband's, and will continue to do so in future elections. BTW, his name is Rob Woodall.

Andria
 

kristin

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This gets back to the question I posed in my reply to roly: where is the ACLU in all this? Clearly a great many state and local gov'ts are trying as hard as they can to violate the civil liberties of their vaping and smoking residents with their plans to impose all these impediments to vaping -- why isn't the ACLU working on this problem? And how can we get them to work on it?

Andria

The ACLU has been contacted in a couple of states (I don't recall which they were) in the past and has declined to help, when they bothered to reply at all.
 

kristin

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I think that profit making entities are probably the only adequate and realistic source of funding for legal challenges. The companies would then control the tenor and direction of the litigation which may be a mixed bag. I inferred from a comment by Rolygate that CASAA may be unwilling to participate in any assistance from profit making entities.

While I can admire the integrity of that stance, I question the practicality of the stance. However, it is their organization and, oddly enough in our society these days, CASAA may value its integrity more than company money - -go figure [a joke, folks, don't go berserk anyone].

So, the solicitation would have to come from other consumers groups - preferably a large group. Say, ECF or a group who will remain unnamed..

CASAA takes donations from anyone except companies that sell combustible tobacco products. We just don't approach them - they have to do it in their own. And they should not expect to be given any publicity for donating, as we don't publish names of donors. We encourage members to encourage their suppliers to join and support CASAA.

I had to chuckle at the post that said they wouldn't pay for a t-shirt if it was to pay for administrative costs, yet they want groups like CASAA to mount multi-million dollar lawsuits or launch million-dollar media campaigns.

If people want CASAA to take actions like an organization with millions of members and millions of dollars, they need to help make us that organization. I'm not sure what people expect us to do with 9 unpaid volunteers and $200k. They want us to do all of this stuff, yet very few offer to help or donate. CASAA is limited most by the lack of involvement and support by the vaping community and industry. If you want CASAA to do something different, get involved and help. If people aren't willing to do that, they can't complain when CASAA can't do the things they want it to do.
 

CMD-Ky

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If one-half of the 40,000 members of CASAA sent in $10 that would be a sizable war chest of $200,000. The cost to each individual is small. We watch or, better, participate with CASAA; If CASAA uses the $200K wisely, then those who can afford to do it again, should. I am going to do it now.

Any more takers? Money talks; {self-regulation] walks.
 
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