I'd like a definitive answer once and for all: do amps matter?

[dr g]

What I'm saying is that you guys are arguing about some theoretical thing that's probably impossible.

If you vary something, you change the other characteristics. All the variables are interdependent.
If you have the same ohms, and same watts, the other values (volts, amps) are the same. If you change something, say amps, the other values change too.

What exactly are you saying is impossible? The whole thing is a bit of a thought experiment but it seems many people have an inability to grasp it without some real-world example. You also might want to re-read the OP's original question and examples.

The question was whether AMPS per se affect vape. Amps only, he specified the same power (watts). Yes that does mean the same thing as whether resistance or voltage affects vape per se.

The answer to all three is no. They only affect vape in the way the builds differ. And they may not differ, so it's really the build that is the determinant.

 

[AttyPops]

Do the math. Add in surface area and coil cubic mm distribution and possibly thermal lag for different gauges too. Identical is identical. Different is different.

Well then why do you and M.P. keep arguing?

Different coils are different. Different setups are different.

If for nothing else, the different voltage, even for the same watts....makes for a different vape. Higher voltages have less thermal sag/lag. That said for any given watts, it's basically the same thing if you have basically the same coil. But basically the same coil, includes things more than just ohms...it includes things like watts per cubic mm and wire-heatup-lag.

EDIT:
So yeah, it does matter. If amps are different, the other stuff is different too. You can't view the build in isolation from the other stuff. The question was about amps. And yeah, it's all related.

The question is a bit of a fallacy. Because you can't isolate amps from everything else.

Basically, in order to keep the wattage the same, you have to change the coil ohms for different volts. If you keep the power system the same, and you don't change the coil config (giving different cubic mm, surface area, whatever even for the same ohms) then you have the same coil and same power = same setup.

And that's all assuming a theoretical perfect battery with unlimited amps.

Allow me to elaborate: I've been vaping for over a year and every time I've ever heard this discussion come up several different viewpoints are claimed with equal levels of confidence and self assuredness lol so I still don't know what to believe. The question is, if you have a low ohm build like .25 with a standard amount of voltage, let's call that 4 volts compared to a build with a relatively high resistance like 3 ohms at 13.85 volts would they vary at all in the Vape experience (ie flavor, vapor production, throat hit, and vapor density)? Since they both result in the same amount of power going to the coil, just being achieved in different ways, the only difference is the amperage being pulled from your battery in either case. Also, let's assume that we are smart vapers and are only using power cells that can handle these loads.



In the first example the setup of .25 ohms @ 4 volts results in 64 watts and 16 amps

In the second example the setup of 3 ohms @ 13.85 volts results in 64 watts and 4.6618 amps
(13.85641 to be exact, just in case anyone's feeling particularly .... lol)

to to summarize both builds have the Same power ie wattage from their respective coils, despite very different resistances. The difference comes down to the amp draw on the battery, so does amperage effect Vape experience or will these to builds be identical in flavor, vapor production, vapor density, and throat hit? I honestly look forward to your responses and any insight or informed explanation anyone can provide on the subject. Thanks in advance and remember to always Vape safely and with the most enjoyment that's practical as well as socially acceptable lol
Keep on vaping all you cloud-chasing cowboys (and cowgirls) =]

 

[dr g]

So yeah, it does matter. If amps are different, the other stuff is different too. You can't view the build in isolation from the other stuff. The question was about amps. And yeah, it's all related.

This is untrue. The build is isolated from other stuff. You can build two coils of the same resistance in completely different ways.

 

[AttyPops]

This is untrue. The build is isolated from other stuff. You can build two coils of the same resistance in completely different ways.

But they won't have the same surface area or heat density (watts per cubit mm) or thermal lag.

That's what I mean by it's different. You have to account for all stuff. You can't just view it in isolation.

Sure, you can "black box" the power supply, but since the OP's question was about the volts/amps/ohms/watts ...I don't know why you would.

And if you and M.P. are "discussing" different coil builds with the same power supply, that's a different question/thread. But STILL, you can't view the coil properties in isolation either. So just keeping the ohms the same doesn't account for all the other differences....unless it's an identical build.

 

[tj99959]

Many think volts/amps/ohms/and watts are all that make an atomizer work instead of thinking in terms of thermodynamics. We get that part of the argument. So do we want to talk about what makes an atomizer work, or do we want to talk about ohms law? BTW there are LAWS of thermodynamics too.

While it's true that two coils of the same resistance can be completely different, and with the amperage being the same they would perform differently, nether coil would perform the same if the amperage was changed.
Ironically, the lower the resistance the more noticeable that change in performance becomes.
In a mechanical, as the battery depletes, the amperage changes.
Grade school math tells me that a 1 ohm resister @ 4.2 volts will use 4.2 amps, and that same resister at 3.2 volts will only be using 3.2 amps, and the thermodynamics of the atomizer will become very different. Thus the amps matter just as much as the voltage.

 

[AzPlumber]

Okay back to the question at hand. I have reconstructed our conversation albiet a bit abbreviated but hopefully you can follow. My question as stated in the quote below. What differences would Steam Engine have to account for?

Yes I am confused how parallel coils when wrapped at the same time around the same wick are different then parallel coils wrapped separately. What differences would Steam Engine have to account for?

A single wire coil has less angularity than a parallel coil, and the angularity on a parallel coil increases as the number of wire it is comprised of increases. This effect both shortens the length of each wire in the coil and increases the leg mass.

Steam engine does not figure for this increased angularity or the shortened wire lengths. Steam engine assumes when you select parallel that you are speaking about single wire coils mounted in parallel.

Parallel coil
View attachment 369829

Let's make this simple. In your example in this picture carefully unscrew the black coil from the red one. Don't disturb the pitch or spacing or angularity of each coil. Now you have two separate coils, one black one red with the same coil spacing. They are the same coils except not nested together,

Yes you are correct.

what changed to make them different? Absolutely nothing.

Correct again, they are exactly the same diameter and each coil would be the exact same length, no change.

As you can clearly see you agree that the parallel coils are identical regardless of their orientation within the circuit. One does not have a shorter wire or increased leg mass just because both coils were wrapped at the same time around the same wick. One does not have longer wire or less leg mass just because the coils were wrapped separately. I ask again, what differences would Steam Engine have to account for.

 

[AttyPops]

@dr g: If you're saying that an X ohm load looks that same as a different X ohm load to the battery....yeah, sure (discounting things like inductance being different in the loads).

But that doesn't mean the different coils vape the same. It just means the ohms are the same. And the amp draw would be identical too.

 

[AzPlumber]

Many think volts/amps/ohms/and watts are all that make an atomizer work instead of thinking in terms of thermodynamics. We get that part of the argument. So do we want to talk about what makes an atomizer work, or do we want to talk about ohms law? BTW there are LAWS of thermodynamics too.

While it's true that two coils of the same resistance can be completely different, and with the amperage being the same they would perform differently, nether coil would perform the same if the amperage was changed.
Ironically, the lower the resistance the more noticeable that change in performance becomes.
In a mechanical, as the battery depletes, the amperage changes.
Grade school math tells me that a 1 ohm resister @ 4.2 volts will use 4.2 amps, and that same resister at 3.2 volts will only be using 3.2 amps, and the thermodynamics of the atomizer will become very different. Thus the amps matter just as much as the voltage.

Try this one, two identical atomizers both having two one ohm coils wrapped with the same type and gauge wire. The coils are positioned the same in both atomizers. The difference is one atty is parallel (.5 ohm) and one is series (2 ohms). Adjust the voltage so they both produce the same wattage (50). Obviously the amps would be very different (10 amp @ .5 ohms & 5 amps @ 2 ohms). They both produce the same power, watts, BTU's. Do amps make a difference in this example? In terms of heat I say no.

 

[tj99959]

Try this one, two identical atomizers both having two one ohm coils wrapped with the same type and gauge wire. The coils are positioned the same in both atomizers. The difference is one atty is parallel (.5 ohm) and one is series (2 ohms). Adjust the voltage so they both produce the same wattage (50). Obviously the amps would be very different (10 amp @ .5 ohms & 5 amps @ 2 ohms). They both produce the same power, watts, BTU's. Do amps make a difference in this example? In terms of heat I say no.

Change the amperage and see if either vapes the same! The amperage is an intricate part of both of your equations. The amperage matters equally with the volts, ohms, and wattage. You can't have the watts without the amps.

 

[AzPlumber]

Change the amperage and see if either vapes the same!

Well that's obvious, if you create a difference in wattage between the two setups there will be a difference.

 

[tj99959]

Well that's obvious, if you create a difference in wattage between the two setups there will be a difference.

I rest my case .......... amps matter!

 

[KillerShark1978]

from my limited vaping experience, hardware is just a over hyped up world of mods and cons, when all you need is a Vision Spinner 2 with a Pro-Tank 2, hell I don't even vape the vision on full power I only set it to 3.8v using standard coils that I get for £2 each at my local vaping shop, and the results in taste I get defeat anything I get from other tanks I have tried like the Nautilus or mod coils with cotton.

so I would say "No" Amps don't matter ...., all that matters is 3.8v on a vision spinner with standard coils for a Pro-Tank 2 then what flavours you are using.

 

[tj99959]

from my limited vaping experience, hardware is just a over hyped up world of mods and cons, when all you need is a Vision Spinner 2 with a Pro-Tank 2, hell I don't even vape the vision on full power I only set it to 3.8v using standard coils that I get for £2 each at my local vaping shop, and the results in taste I get defeat anything I get from other tanks I have tried like the Nautilus or mod coils with cotton.

so I would say "No" Amps don't matter ...., all that matters is 3.8v on a vision spinner with standard coils for a Pro-Tank 2 then what flavours you are using.

Those 3.8v can't do a thing without amps to push through the rsistance.

Volt is your battery, ohm is your atomizer, and amp is your vape.

 

[KillerShark1978]

Well obviously the 3.8v setting on the Vision 2 is taking care of all I need to know about amps, been vaping this thing for a month without once having to worry about amps.

 

[tj99959]

Well obviously the 3.8v setting on the Vision 2 is taking care of all I need to know about amps, been vaping this thing for a month without once having to worry about amps.

Understand that, but the amps are there giving you the vape that you enjoy.
You see the 3.8v are there all the time, even when you're not vaping. It's only when you push the button that the amps appear to be pushed through the resistance of your atomizer.

 

[AttyPops]

Az....

Maybe think of it this way: YOU cannot change the amps. The amps just "happen" because of the other things.

But they are an integral part of the process. They represent the # of electrons flowing past a given point per second. (more or less...physicists may dispute that simple definition). So how can they not "matter"? Electrons flowing is what gives us electricity to use.

However, the # of them flowing is a result of a lot of stuff....voltage & resistance in particular.

 

[AttyPops]

It's like you're saying "the H2O molecules in the stream don't matter....it's the design of the riverbed and the waterfall that counts".

Yeah, but.....well....it all works together. What good is a waterfall with no water?

 

[AttyPops]

Well obviously the 3.8v setting on the Vision 2 is taking care of all I need to know about amps, been vaping this thing for a month without once having to worry about amps.

The main reasons you would ever want to know about the amps are:

1) Hitting "amp limits" (or watts limits) on a particular device. Take dual coil atomizers as an example. People would buy those things and not realize they'd need to crank stuff up to 4.8 volts to get em to work and they'd exceed the amp rating of the devices. Since 4.8 volts at 1.5 ohms is 3.2 amps (and 15.36 watts). Some devices were limited to about 2.5 amps.

2) Those using mech mods need to worry about battery amp limits for safety reasons.

 

[skoony]

And the difference between "not much" and "great" difference is ... the build. NOT amperage!

again we are not talking about the build,we are talking a straight up comparison between similarly built coils.
take 2 one ohm coils in series. at ten volts you get 5 amps and 50 watts total power.
take a single one ohm coil at 7.05 volts for 7.05 amps and 49.7 watts of power.
the single coil is dissipating more power per wrap of coil,hence more heat per wrap,heat being the main factor when
generating vapor.

the voltage source does not care how many single coils are in a series resistance just the total resistance.
we are not load balancing here,amperage does matter.

regards
mike

 

[beckdg]

Nvm

opcorn: