If I could, I would...

[chaseman]

Here's what I don't understand. Mind you, I've only been here for 2 months, so excuse my ignorance. In the 2 months that I've been vaping, I've seen HC stop the sale of nic juice from from 2 CAN vendors. Why just these 2? There are many more CAN vendors selling parts & nic juice, what about them? . And moreso, why has HC not shut down the big brewers like JC, MLV, Jugs, GRBC & FC ?

In short, HC is largely incompetent, especially when compared to the FDA. Many intelligent individuals would suggest they shut 'er down and let the FDA take over here (not necessarily my opinion).

The larger more loaded answer involves too many factors for me to put me worthless commentary into.....but here's a tidbit:

This too shall come to an end.

It saddens me that our industry has done nothing to fight this in the only way it can be fought.....money!

You can write all the letters you want and contact all the MPs you'd like, but nothing will win this battle except cold hard cash, and tons of it, in the hands of a "capable" law firm. Just follow the money! This product is golden, and it poses a serious risk to BP, BT and the recipient of its tax spooge, HC.

Our suppliers are too small and too scared for their own well being to pool together any reasonable sum of money to get this done properly. I have hope, but very little.

Your ignorance is forgiven, however, I'd be more diligent when labeling suppliers as big brewers

We've sunk too far into this mess and it feels like groundhog day all over again, albeit with a 0 nicotine product plastered all over the main stream (as both a medical device and novelty toy), a larger pool of bath tub brewers and shoddy product/tax/customs/legal skirters who drive prices into the ground at the expense of the public and future legitimate market for our product in Canada.

 

[Toronto_Mike]

I agree, it seems like the same ol' way, the feds have handled contraband cigarrettes. Just make a bust once a year to let the public know that they are still upholding the Canadian Law. We all know the reality of this - 95% of all contraband reaches it end user & as much as 50% of all the Tobacco tax never makes it to Ottawa. It's a battle that both sides will never completely win. Just a fight. Well, I'm willing to fight this war! If I have to stockpile nic juice in my garage & sell it to friends while hiding from PO PO - I will. The feds will have a tougher time controlling e-juice - unlike cigs, e-juice ingredients are easy to get hold of & anyone can DIY. Just taxing the juice will just cause more to DIY & only the wealthy will buy from BP. Let's face it, here - we've already won this war - we just haven't stopped it, yet.

 

[twohandedcreations]

EDIT: never mind, just realized this was in the canada forum, my opinion doesn't really matter here!

 

[ChellyNelly]

EDIT: never mind, just realized this was in the canada forum, my opinion doesn't really matter here!

Awwwww now now, we're easy going Canadians!

 

[kanadiankat]

[Until then......go Canadian e liquid makers!!!!!]

Ok. But tomorrow, I am an e-liquid maker. Where do I need to apply for certificats? As far as I know, there is no certification program set up. So what? You contact your supplier and ask him if he can show you his regulation paper on its kitchen facility? Why a kitchen though? Do you need to boil or cook something? What is the definition of a regulated kitchen? I'd rather have a certified shed.

Even better than that, to promote my business, I just have to show customer's a nice certificate printed with the newly invented logo of "Certified by CELS*" ! A ton of money.

*CELS: Canadian E-Liquid Supplier

There are regulations. They are being put down on paper now and compliance models are coming into place.

It is VERY difficult to do this though when the men and women charged with overseeing standards compliance in our great country are standing with their pitchforks ready to destroy anyone who is doing what you are talking about doing.

There is a lot of misinformation about the origin and conditions that eliquid is produced under in Canada - even who is producing it. Most of this information thrives cause no one wants to give the pitchfork guys directions.

Unfortunately the "kitchen regulation certificate" is only available through the pitchfork guys - and they really don't care if someone's working with standards that makes the pharma industry look sloppy - when it comes to eliquid - their answer is always "NO", followed by - "Please forward your full name and address so we can close you down - and that of all your business associates so we can close them down as well".

 

[MattB]

It's nice to see there are some level headed people here amidst the undue hype.

I'd agree about the HC registered facility and inspections, however, there are definitely options to create a more acceptable environment for health and safety.

Regulations for basic food items meet immense criteria before being sellable on the Canadian market, we should place the same care/concern on our products as self regulators at the very least.

Regarding a chemist....tough beans. If you can't afford to have a "legit" business, you shouldn't have one, as unfair as that seems, in my opinion. Nicotine is a schedule F drug in Canada an should be treated with care and concern, regardless of concentration.

We should at the very least be placing put food grade standards on this drug.

Just a question here, but does every post you make have to sound so damn condescending? Lighten the f%$^ up dude.

Just a wild guess, but you dont come off as the type of person who actually uses the product this community forum is built around. Am i right or am i wrong?

If i'm wrong, then i take it you enjoy being able to use such vaping products as my as we do, as well as being able to vape juice including nicotine.

In a perfect world where every supplier had TONES of cash to hire chiemists and run the battery of tests needed to meet you stamp of approval, sure i'd be all for it. But given that the world isnt all unicorns and rainbows, and that the alternative would lead to this product not existing and me still having to smoke the stinkies ... i'm ready to accept lower levels of QC.

The point is, NOT ONE supplier has the means to hire and maintain a chemist on staff full time. The business just isnt that lucrative. Which is why most of them are praying for the day HC man's up and does their job and regulates the products.

"Legit" business? What supplier do you KNOW(and i dont mean just hearing from another) that has a chemist on board? Do you have any idea how much a chemist makes a year in any reputable(not to say the e-cig business isnt ... but you know what i mean ...) industry? Easily in the 6 figures ... not a single e-cig merchant could afford one. I'm ready to bet on it.

So ... what would you rather have?

Rules and regulations out the yin yang that would close down every single e-cig vendor out there? Not being able to buy and enjoy e-cigs and nic juice anymore. Having to start smokeing again? Getting lung cancer and dying sooner than you have to?

Or,

Having self regulated, if somewhat lacking, suppliers who TRY to do their best in keeping things clean and safe as possible. Still being able to buy these things, still being able to clear all the black gunky tar buildup on your lungs. Being able to see your grand children grow up, maybe even attend their graduation if your lucky. Not having to smell like the dirty ashtray at the old pub back in 1942.

I'm sorry, but the choice is crystal clear for me. I've pumped my lungs full of crap all my life. I'll take PG & VG and Nic juice over tar and cyanide and carbon dioxide any .....ing day of the week.

 

[kanadiankat]

....Regarding a chemist....tough beans. If you can't afford to have a "legit" business, you shouldn't have one, as unfair as that seems, in my opinion. Nicotine is a schedule F drug in Canada an should be treated with care and concern, regardless of concentration. ....We should at the very least be placing put food grade standards on this drug.

Nicotine is NOT a schedule F drug. When inhaled in dosage units of 4mg or less it is exempt from Schedule F.

As for "food grade" regulations - every eliquid in the main stream in this country meets and exceeds those standards. Every ingredient is either food grade or USP.

If the guys with the pitchforks were even remotely open to offering a regulatory certificate for the producers - you would likely be shocked at how many exceed the qualifications.

 

[chaseman]

.....dosage unit! Not dosage. VERY different things.

This is (by far) the most commonly misinformed translation of the law interpreted by far too many people, IMO.

Find a lawyer who specifically represents tobacco or pharmaceutical companies and you'll get the only answer you need.....the legal one.

 

[chaseman]

Just a question here, but does every post you make have to sound so damn condescending? Lighten the f%$^ up dude.

Just a wild guess, but you dont come off as the type of person who actually uses the product this community forum is built around. Am i right or am i wrong?

If i'm wrong, then i take it you enjoy being able to use such vaping products as my as we do, as well as being able to vape juice including nicotine.

In a perfect world where every supplier had TONES of cash to hire chiemists and run the battery of tests needed to meet you stamp of approval, sure i'd be all for it. But given that the world isnt all unicorns and rainbows, and that the alternative would lead to this product not existing and me still having to smoke the stinkies ... i'm ready to accept lower levels of QC.

The point is, NOT ONE supplier has the means to hire and maintain a chemist on staff full time. The business just isnt that lucrative. Which is why most of them are praying for the day HC man's up and does their job and regulates the products.

"Legit" business? What supplier do you KNOW(and i dont mean just hearing from another) that has a chemist on board? Do you have any idea how much a chemist makes a year in any reputable(not to say the e-cig business isnt ... but you know what i mean ...) industry? Easily in the 6 figures ... not a single e-cig merchant could afford one. I'm ready to bet on it.

So ... what would you rather have?

Rules and regulations out the yin yang that would close down every single e-cig vendor out there? Not being able to buy and enjoy e-cigs and nic juice anymore. Having to start smokeing again? Getting lung cancer and dying sooner than you have to?

Or,

Having self regulated, if somewhat lacking, suppliers who TRY to do their best in keeping things clean and safe as possible. Still being able to buy these things, still being able to clear all the black gunky tar buildup on your lungs. Being able to see your grand children grow up, maybe even attend their graduation if your lucky. Not having to smell like the dirty ashtray at the old pub back in 1942.

I'm sorry, but the choice is crystal clear for me. I've pumped my lungs full of crap all my life. I'll take PG & VG and Nic juice over tar and cyanide and carbon dioxide any .....ing day of the week.

I love e cigs. I'd love it if the world converted tomorrow. I'm also a realist and believe I know how the legitimate fight should NOT be fought.

I would say YOUR response is representative of condescending, in my opinion.

I tend to argue in favor of proper business practices, the law, and what Canadian consumers deserve.

I won't call out vendors or individuals or products and if I do in any way I'll state its my opinion, as everyone has theirs. This is a forum, which I'm a paying member of. I respect the industry, product and it's users here in many ways that I don't need to back up. Everyone has their opinion and I'm entitled to mine. That's what makes it a free country.

I apologize if you are offended at my opinion of the truth.

While the selfish, customer side of me wishes to partake in the saving of dollars in my pocket, I still side with proper business and to say these issues don't matter because people don't have the money is opening up a big can of worms, IMO.

I believe this CAN be fought. We need to get our stuff together from the business community FIRST.

Please don't put people down

 

[smokum]

Remember the please....... attack the POST NOT the POSTER !

And kindly keep discussion/rebutals civil, as circumventing the language filter can get you infracted and/or eventually banned if kept up should it get out of hand and used in the context of personal attacking.

Thank-You

 

[kanadiankat]

.....dosage unit! Not dosage. VERY different things.

This is (by far) the most commonly misinformed translation of the law interpreted by far too many people, IMO.

Find a lawyer who specifically represents tobacco or pharmaceutical companies and you'll get the only answer you need.....the legal one.

The legal work has been done and is ongoing.

The dosage unit was already interpreted to accommodate the Nhaler. This part in legislation was actually written for the purpose of making the Nhaler legally available over the counter.

The details of this work is not yet available though - for reasons that can't be shared.

I like your comments though on building a respectable and accountable industry. It shouldn't be this hard.

 

[chaseman]

The legal work has been done and is ongoing.

The dosage unit was already interpreted to accommodate the Nhaler. This part in legislation was actually written for the purpose of making the Nhaler legally available over the counter.

The details of this work is not yet available though - for reasons that can't be shared.

I like your comments though on building a respectable and accountable industry. It shouldn't be this hard.

Very interesting and worth a side chat, eventually, one day

I never do this, but I happen to find Kat to be arguably one of, if not the most well rounded, outspoken advocates on behalf of our industry. It takes a LOT to be honest, forthcoming, bold and open minded, while running a business, and few, if any others, have accomplished this here, IMO.

I won't comment any more on this thread as my opinions have already been stated and people are entitled to their own, however......

I would strongly encourage any n00b (or otherwise) to look into companies that have stood the test of time in this country (hint, there really, sadly aren't many) and are around to tell the tales. Not only do they offer wisdom to new businesses currently setting themselves up for eventual failure, but a precedent for what it means to be an "upstanding" business in this country and fledgling, struggling industry. HC is aware of everyone. It is most definitely possible to do this....and win, but we MUST do it the right way.

I truly and sincerely wish there were more people like you, Kat.

 

[Nergost]

I think I have to agree that it will take somebody to spend a lot of money to get this legal. I would think that the large Cigarrette companys would consider it. There must be some board room discussions and some top secret research and development going on. If not them, then maybe the pharmacutical companys.

And if some big company spent the money and got this going then we could all rest easy that our juice was safe. Cause they would never add 4000 cancer causing chemicals to it right?????

 

[MattB]

And if some big company spent the money and got this going then we could all rest easy that our juice was safe. Cause they would never add 4000 cancer causing chemicals to it right?????

BT would never dare do that now would they? Especially not while BP is dropping millions in their corperate pockets. That would be unheard of ...

P.S. This forum really needs a "tone" option so i can start pointing out the obvious sarcasm.

 

[cactusgirl]

I've tried DIY to mix my own flavors and such but I sucked at it so badly I gave up. I can cut down the nic content pretty good but to get something that doesn't make me do a lemon face everytime.....um, no. I'm ok with getting it from someone else who marks it up for their own profit. I'm willing to spend more for a consistent flavor rather than go through the hassles of trying to make my own only to go "ick" after all my mixing. I am very, very picky with juice flavors......I am cursed I guess.

For those who are able to DIY their own stash - I tip my hat to you all

I'm with you Lori!! I am also very picky with flavours and have absolutely no patience for DIY!!