Is it all just an act of futility?

[Jman8]

The thing is, most people claim to hate lobbyists, and 'big money' politics. But the reality is, we only hate the lobbyists who oppose our interests. We love the ones who support our interests, and willingly contribute to them. Everybody has lobbyists. It doesn't matter if you're a gun owner, anti gun, Union member, anti Union, Republican, Democrat, pro life, pro choice, pro vaping, anti vaping, etc. sadly, it's how the game is played. You either fish, or cut bait. I guarantee, $1 million in the hands of a lobbyist goes a lot farther than a million phone calls or letters to the White House or Congressmen.

I think what we hate is the last sentence, and knowledge that it is accurate.

Makes me think you all who are hung up on "voting matters" are a little delusional. If we know that a million phone calls or letters do not matter as much as millionaire's influence on politics of the day, then seems hard to go along with idea that individual votes matter more than what the 1% desire in terms of outcome of an election.

It's like the "voting matters" crowd wants to present the case two ways, that are diametrically opposed. If voting truly mattered for individuals, then a million phone calls from those voters would matter more than any amount of money. Yet, I think it is clear to all who look at the process that money / influence matter way more. And that voting then becomes a way to track / marginalize those who do not have money / influence.

 

[Rule62]

I think what we hate is the last sentence, and knowledge that it is accurate.

Makes me think you all who are hung up on "voting matters" are a little delusional. If we know that a million phone calls or letters do not matter as much as millionaire's influence on politics of the day, then seems hard to go along with idea that individual votes matter more than what the 1% desire in terms of outcome of an election.

It's like the "voting matters" crowd wants to present the case two ways, that are diametrically opposed. If voting truly mattered for individuals, then a million phone calls from those voters would matter more than any amount of money. Yet, I think it is clear to all who look at the process that money / influence matter way more. And that voting then becomes a way to track / marginalize those who do not have money / influence.

Actually, I don't think they are exclusive. I think it's important to do both, vote, and financially support causes. Keep in mind our current President won 2 elections on contributions largely of $20 or less, over super PACs funded by much larger average contributions.

 

[Jman8]

Actually, I don't think they are exclusive. I think it's important to do both, vote, and financially support causes. Keep in mind our current President won 2 elections on contributions largely of $20 or less, over super PACs funded by much larger average contributions.

I find that impossible to believe. Or not credible. Or along lines that a million phone calls to WH on eCigs will carry more influence than BP's 10 billion dollars that are asking for opposite result.

I think 1% has (heavily) vested interest in making sure that votes/individual calls do appear like they matter.

 

[Rule62]

I find that impossible to believe. Or not credible. Or along lines that a million phone calls to WH on eCigs will carry more influence than BP's 10 billion dollars that are asking for opposite result.

I think 1% has (heavily) vested interest in making sure that votes/individual calls do appear like they matter.

There's no harm in trying, though, is there?

 

[bluecat]

Actually, I don't think they are exclusive. I think it's important to do both, vote, and financially support causes. Keep in mind our current President won 2 elections on contributions largely of $20 or less, over super PACs funded by much larger average contributions.

Which would make total sense. 2,000,000 20 dollar contribution = 40 million. 2 20,000,000 contributions = 40,000,000. What did my fellow conservative fail to realize? 2 mill 20 dollar contributions in 2,000,000 votes. Well that is at the simplistic level of course and exaggerated for explanatory considerations. Although my ideals differ drastically than the President. He did that bit right.

 

[bluecat]

I find that impossible to believe. Or not credible. Or along lines that a million phone calls to WH on eCigs will carry more influence than BP's 10 billion dollars that are asking for opposite result.

I think 1% has (heavily) vested interest in making sure that votes/individual calls do appear like they matter.

It won't largely because the individual isn't voting on this. The typical voter will forget what they voted for 2 days later and start worry if their instagram updated or facebook got a like.

 

[Rule62]

I'm a politics nerd, I know that. I haven't stayed home from voting since I turned 21, which is what the voting age was when I started. I've yet to see a candidate where I have agreed with on every issue; nor have I ever seen one where I have entirely disagreed, either on a National or local level.

 

[Jman8]

I'm a politics nerd, I know that. I haven't stayed home from voting since I turned 21, which is what the voting age was when I started. I've yet to see a candidate where I have agreed with on every issue; nor have I ever seen one where I have entirely disagreed, either on a National or local level.

That's kind of a thing for vaping politics. If I vote for candidate that is pro-vaping (in their rhetoric), but on issue I consider bigger has completely opposite stance from me, then what? And(or) if I am in agreement on the larger issue with another candidate, who just happens to be in another party than the previously mentioned one, but is clearly anti-vaping in their rhetoric, promising to make the FDA go further, then what? I find it too challenging to reconcile the two. Then add in fact there are umpteen other issues, and I do wonder how people reconcile all the differences/variations, as some of them are fairly significant. Some of them (arguably most of them) are dealing with morality.

Perhaps whatever responses could be given to this are better done in PM, cause this is only one aspect of around 10 that I either personally struggle with or that I think is inherent flaw within the system and am willing to discuss / not hold back. And most of that probably has nothing to do with vaping, though does have to do with "futility."

 

[Rule62]

That's kind of a thing for vaping politics. If I vote for candidate that is pro-vaping (in their rhetoric), but on issue I consider bigger has completely opposite stance from me, then what? And(or) if I am in agreement on the larger issue with another candidate, who just happens to be in another party than the previously mentioned one, but is clearly anti-vaping in their rhetoric, promising to make the FDA go further, then what? I find it too challenging to reconcile the two. Then add in fact there are umpteen other issues, and I do wonder how people reconcile all the differences/variations, as some of them are fairly significant. Some of them (arguably most of them) are dealing with morality.

Perhaps whatever responses could be given to this are better done in PM, cause this is only one aspect of around 10 that I either personally struggle with or that I think is inherent flaw within the system and am willing to discuss / not hold back. And most of that probably has nothing to do with vaping, though does have to do with "futility."

It is difficult to recconcile. Perfect example: I'm a firearm owner, target shooter, and hunter. But I never have, nor will I ever belong to, or give a dime to the NRA. Why? Because the NRA backs candidates and politicians I vehemently oppose on other issues.
Everybody, regardless of political stripe, has their one or two issues that they are most passionate about, or that they are affected by, the most. My first responsibilities are to myself and my family, and if that conflicts with issues that are farther down the list; so be it.

 

[AndriaD]

Tea party.......naw......French revolutin.......yip......gillotine, gillotine gillotine.......

That's my suggestion too. When these gov't "aristos" are so full of themselves and completely unconcerned about the people they're supposed to be representing... it's definitely time for guillotines... firing squads... Maybe the next hurricane Sandy will do us all a favor and just obliterate WashDC.

Andria

 

[Rule62]

That's my suggestion too. When these gov't "aristos" are so full of themselves and completely unconcerned about the people they're supposed to be representing... it's definitely time for guillotines... firing squads... Maybe the next hurricane Sandy will do us all a favor and just obliterate WashDC.

Andria

People have been crowing about Revolution, for years. It won't happen, because there is no united solution.

 

[Jman8]

It is difficult to recconcile. Perfect example: I'm a firearm owner, target shooter, and hunter. But I never have, nor will I ever belong to, or give a dime to the NRA. Why? Because the NRA backs candidates and politicians I vehemently oppose on other issues.
Everybody, regardless of political stripe, has their one or two issues that they are most passionate about, or that they are affected by, the most. My first responsibilities are to myself and my family, and if that conflicts with issues that are farther down the list; so be it.

Yeah, I'm not sure if I have the passions at that level. Vaping perhaps comes closest. But thus far, at the national political level, it is barely on the radar for them, and I (along with thousands of others) have tried to create it as a significant issue. With seemingly no indication that a politician in DC will help us, even a little bit, the futility kicks in. Now, if a party were to show both favorable rhetoric toward vaping (like Pubs do) and take actions that make the FDA overreach seem like it could be curtailed or kept in check, then I would think this would be something to consider as one issue to go and vote in 2016 for. But Pubs right now control both houses, and thus it ought to be no brainer to tackle the issue in a pro-vaping way, or in a small business way. Though I'm thinking Pubs of the national variety would say this is around concern #96 for them on what they will act on.

And right about now, I'm just looking for anything on the pro-vaping side of the equation. I know what I'd love to see them do, but am willing to be 'realistic' and go for far less. If not even doing that, then it does make me wonder what the purpose of CTA's (to national politicians) was even for. Currently, it seems like almost everyone is suggesting that courts are our best recourse. Thus CTAs (of the national sort) even less necessary.

I do have passion for many many issues, and wish to make that clear. But vaping is the only one, right now (might change) that I would actually be willing to vote in national elections for, because I have reason to believe it will matter.

Now, if I could get over my conviction that national elections are rigged....

 

[Rule62]

Rigged??? Nah...but I'm really not much of a conspiracy theorist.

 

[AndriaD]

People have been crowing about Revolution, for years. It won't happen, because there is no united solution.

There wasn't in the French Revolution either, which is what brought on the Reign of Terror and revolving gov'ts for about 5 yrs-ish until Napoleon came along.

Andria

 

[Rule62]

There wasn't in the French Revolution either, which is what brought on the Reign of Terror and revolving gov'ts for about 5 yrs-ish until Napoleon came along.

Andria

Ok, I'll leave all the revolting to you younger folks. I'm still tuckered out from all that Viet Nam war protesting in the '60s.

 

[Steamix]

I read somewhere recently that it was right around 9 million in the US, I'm not sure how accurate that number is but let's use that as a baseline.

Roxynoodle and I did the math a couple days ago and I believe we were conservative.

Some assumptions, those 9 million are 1 PAD smokers, no more no less
The tax averaged across all states is $1.00
That would be $9,000,000.00 a day that isn't making it to the government coffers

Now here's the good one, annually it would be: $ 3,285,000,000.00

So basically we are just screwing with their piggybank. Better to have you back on smokes!

Check my math

No need for guesswork :

Tobacco Tax Revenue

Not just the piggybank. Not having that kind a dough is baaad news for those who spent it already - i.e. CA with their MSA bonds.


That's why they fighting vaping with a horseshoe in the boxing glove....

 

[Rossum]

I so wanna jump into this. But I won't. This is not the Outside.

 

[AzPlumber]

I so wanna jump into this. But I won't. This is not the Outside.

Just keep your post conservative

 

[AndriaD]

Ok, I'll leave all the revolting to you younger folks. I'm still tuckered out from all that Viet Nam war protesting in the '60s.

Well, I was 12-13 when the vietnam war was over, so I'm probably too old too. But my husband has stocked up on buckshot and slugs.

Andria