Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[Jman8]

I agree to an extent, when the fair packaging and labeling act does mandate what will your juice bottle label say ? free of "no" chemicals known to have no harm for inhalation ?

Pretty sure I get what you're asking, but would ask you to clarify just a bit. I'm prone to respond with idea that if the mandate is framed to be strict as heck, then another market will arise where such restrictions are not necessary to meet demand.

 

[sparkky1]

Start here:
CDC - Flavorings-Related Lung Disease - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic

Kinda old news. OSHA has far surpassed CDC. Occupational Exposure to Diacetyl and Food Flavorings Containing Diacetyl; Proposed Rule - 74:3937-3947 so I'm not sure were your going with this ......

 

[sparkky1]

Pretty sure I get what you're asking, but would ask you to clarify just a bit. I'm prone to respond with idea that if the mandate is framed to be strict as heck, then another market will arise where such restrictions are not necessary to meet demand.

Then it would consist of about 5 flavors otherwise unflavored.... How can the FDA deem not having x /y /z compounds and disregard the other compounds as safe for inhalation ?
They will try and simplify it by deeming it a tobacco product if that doesn't work they will deem it as harmful "black label", either way HELLO sin tax ......

 

[stevegmu]

So you have no "fact" MSDS nor toxicology reports stating other compounds "butyric acid" being used ?

Halo has never come under question for lying about ingredients. I imagine if they were, they would release such reports. I also imagine their juice has been thoroughly tested by competitors and 'gotcha' types.

Perhaps you should ask on the Halo forum-

Halo | E-Cigarette Forum

I'm sure Johnny Blaze or Rockin Randle will answer your questions...

 

[sparkky1]

Halo has never come under question for lying about ingredients. I imagine if they were, they would release such reports. I also imagine their juice has been thoroughly tested by competitors and 'gotcha' types.

Perhaps you should ask on the Halo forum-

Halo | E-Cigarette Forum

I'm sure Johnny Blaze or Rockin Randle will answer your questions...

Seriously ?
OK then friend and fellow vapor I will have to agree to disagree with your analogy ............

 

[Jman8]

Then it would consist of about 5 flavors otherwise unflavored.... How can the FDA deem not having x /y /z compounds and disregard the other compounds as safe for inhalation ?
They will try and simplify it by deeming it a tobacco product if that doesn't work they will deem it as harmful "black label", either way HELLO sin tax ......

And HELLO black market...

 

[stevegmu]

Seriously ?
OK then friend and fellow vapor I will have to agree to disagree with your analogy ............

You are asking questions the vendor would be able to answer. You seem to think because you can't make an e-liquid without diacetyl and AP that professional e-liquid makers can't either...

 

[zoiDman]

Yes dangerous to be inhaled for 8 hours straight. Once again the amount that was being inhaled in the workplace was astronomical to anything even remotely close to what vapors vape.. I crunched the numbers for you in my first post, if you want to ignore them fine. You would need to vape 30ml of Five Pawns Gambit daily to reach the daily exposure levels of people who were exposed to .02ppm per day.

What do the Numbers look like for Five Pawns Gambit when 2,3 Pentandedione (Acetyl Propionyl) is run thru Your Calculation method?

http://fivepawns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/5pNa064R-Summary-.pdf

BTW - If there is 360ug of Acetyl Propionyl in every ml of Five Pawns Gambit. And if a Vaper uses 4ml of Gambit per day. Then it sounds like 1440ug of Acetyl Propionyl were inhaled by this Vaper in one day. Or 1.44mg/day

 

[Jman8]

Seriously ?
OK then friend and fellow vapor I will have to agree to disagree with your analogy ............

Halo consistently states it is not in there, which apparently is good enough for some consumers.

Though when searching "lab tests" on Halo forum, I found zero results. So, I guess we can just take their word that they are DA / AP free, and consider that informed choice. Me, if I cared enough to know it's in there, or not, and I vaped their stuff regularly, I'd do my own testing, so I'd be truly informed. As I don't vape their stuff, but have tried it, I find myself gravitating to other, more tasty, vendors.

ETA: I do see that they have lab results on their site, and that this has been published as of 7/27/17, or almost 2 weeks. I also notice that according to their tests, they are are in the "not detected" range for all their flavors. Still would want to do my own tests if I truly cared about this issue.

 

[sparkky1]

You are asking questions the vendor would be able to answer. You seem to think because you can't make an e-liquid without diacetyl and AP that professional e-liquid makers can't either...

My job lintels speaking with and visiting dozens of vendors a month and not one of them make there own flavor concentrates "possibly extracts" I don't think you have a clue how many chemicals it takes to produce one flavor let alone the price tag.
You ever notice when you walk in a supermarket / walmart / walgreens that the ejuice isn't in there ?

 

[stevegmu]

My job lintels speaking with and visiting dozens of vendors a month and not one of them make there own flavor concentrates "possibly extracts" I don't think you have a clue how many chemicals it takes to produce one flavor let alone the price tag.
You ever notice when you walk in a supermarket / walmart / walgreens that the ejuice isn't in there ?

Perhaps this is why there is a difference between large, lab juice vendors- like Halo, Johnson Creek and NJOY, and those who visit the cake section at Walmart to buy their ingredients. Perhaps this is why Halo, Johnson Creek and AIV cost more than vendors like MBV...

 

[sparkky1]

Halo consistently states it is not in there, which apparently is good enough for some consumers.

Though when searching "lab tests" on Halo forum, I found zero results. So, I guess we can just take their word that they are DA / AP free, and consider that informed choice. Me, if I cared enough to know it's in there, or not, and I vaped their stuff regularly, I'd do my own testing, so I'd be truly informed. As I don't vape their stuff, but have tried it, I find myself gravitating to other, more tasty, vendors.

But what are they substituting it with, I know exactly what my two flavor manufactures use and is it a safer alternative for inhalation ? do you think there subbing the process chemically free ?

 

[Jman8]

But what are they substituting it with, I know exactly what my two flavor manufactures use and is it a safer alternative for inhalation ? do you think there subbing the process chemically free ?

2nd question reply: absolutely not.

I consistently state in this ongoing debate that the substitute (or lack thereof) are items that we do not have long term studies for, and that our monkeying with this issue at this time could just as well lead to problems 20 years down the road. If we change things now, it could arguably put us on a path where things are wrong, and we won't really know a) how the original path would've gone 20 years from now, and b) whether we created additional risks. I see it as a gamble either way, and feel science will keep pointing out "some sort of risk" as clearly there are zero chemicals that are risk free.

 

[sparkky1]

There is a reason why it taste so funny and it's not from being all natural unless you can call butyric acid natural. Reviews ?
Cinnerin™ Johnson Creek Vapor Liquid

 

[Asbestos4004]

If you read his posting history you'd be very hard pressed to know what gear he vapes on, or what juices he vapes, or how he vapes. The only thing you would learn about him is that he repeats all the standard ANTZ propaganda talking points repeatedly and endlessly, like a BOT.

not true...he uses a ProVari and a Kayfun...but only when he's on holiday in Prague. On a day to day basis, he uses a ProVari and a carto tank...sometimes spinners if I'm not mistaken. He vapes Halo eliquids mainly.
His posting history tells me he's not worried about making forum pals...he states what he believes or researches and leaves emotion out of it. Other times, he's just plain funny as hell while everybody else goes postal. Steve's a lot of fun.

 

[stevegmu]

not true...he uses a ProVari and a Kayfun...but only when he's on holiday in Prague. On a day to day basis, he uses a ProVari and a carto tank...sometimes spinners if I'm not mistaken. He vapes Halo eliquids mainly.
His posting history tells me he's not worried about making forum pals...he states what he believes or researches and leaves emotion out of it. Other times, he's just plain funny as hell while everybody else goes postal. Steve's a lot of fun.

You forgot to mention Sandra's belly...

 

[sparkky1]

2nd question reply: absolutely not.

I consistently state in this ongoing debate that the substitute (or lack thereof) are items that we do not have long term studies for, and that our monkeying with this issue at this time could just as well lead to problems 20 years down the road. If we change things now, it could arguably put us on a path where things are wrong, and we won't really know a) how the original path would've gone 20 years from now, and b) whether we created additional risks. I see it as a gamble either way, and feel science will keep pointing out "some sort of risk" as clearly there are zero chemicals that are risk free.

Now that's the smartest response iv'e heard yet and back 150 %

 

[Mike 586]

Like I said, it is my own personal decision to trust vape-friendly medical researchers (who are NOT anti-vaping, who are not ANTZ) because they have no financial incentive to their pronouncements........over politicians, vaping activists, and bottle fillers who are less able to be as objective for obvious reasons and who do not have medical/research training.

If some vendors want to eventually prove, with actual peer reviewed published studies, that I need not be concerned, then I will re-consider my decision NOT to vape AP and DA.

Where it stands now is that it has taken me over a year just to get test results from vendors, and then it seems like some of them turn out to be HUGE arguments about who did it, if they did it correctly, what the lab settings were, the dates it was done, and differences between their own labs and somebody else's labs, etc.

In other words, a ton of obsfucation.

I don't need it. I'm not here to protect anyone's brand or bash it either. All I want is straight numbers......not excuses about numbers.

Now, unfortunately, we not only have members attacking other members, but vendors attacking members here (basically, calling Steve an ANTZ).

It's really getting out of hand.

As a matter of fact, name calling and also calling ECF members, who are vapers, by names like ANTZ is probably not even allowed by ECF terms of membership. There were a number of posters who were famous for doing this, and they have since been discouraged from doing so by moderators.

I get where you're coming from man. My wife watches that show Orange is the new black a lot and I just can't help thinking of this particular character when someone starts hurling around slurs like ANTZ or accuse someone of being on "the other side".

(I'm sure the character has a name...but all I remember is "Oh that crazy chick")

Far too many of these threads get taken over by those types.

 

[Jman8]

Far too many of these threads get taken over by those types.

I dunno, some are taken over by these types:

 

[Asbestos4004]

You forgot to mention Sandra's belly...

Oh yeah.... not only does he wick his kayfun with alpaca hair wicks....his fiance has a belly that should be pictured on each and every drip tip sold. It's even more amazing than Whitney Houstons performance of the National Anthem.