Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[sparkky1]

What are natural flavors, really? - CNN.com
Facts About Natural And Artificial Flavors - Business Insider
Natural Flavoring Made From .... Secretions of Beavers? - The Alternative Daily
What Are "Natural Flavors"? - Isagenix Health

 

[sparkky1]

This is why your juice can sit around for months on end without going bad, how long would a banana / apple last on your counter ? how long does candy last and why ?

 

[Jman8]

What are natural flavors, really? - CNN.com
Facts About Natural And Artificial Flavors - Business Insider
Natural Flavoring Made From .... Secretions of Beavers? - The Alternative Daily
What Are "Natural Flavors"? - Isagenix Health

Can you please stop providing such information in this thread? It is confusing those of us who have already made up our mind on this issue and are sure vaping "natural flavors" is extremely harmful.

 

[Dixie1954]

I have tried many different brands of flavorings since I make my own juice. I know that most sellers of ready to vape juice use the same products I use - I seriously doubt they all have the time or want to spend the money to come up with their own. They do however probably use more additives than I use - there are lots of them available. But most flavoring companies do not claim that their flavorings are safe for vaping. It is the mixers of the flavorings that try to say that. On an aside I do know of 1 vaper that vapes 30ml a day and this person is a new - less than 3 month vaper. I will just and

 

[Rossum]

Going back to the beginning:

The lowest detectable levels found in the manufacturing settings from what I have read were .02ppm.

Is that by weight or by volume? It doesn't matter too much when we're talking about liquids that have a similar density, but here I think it might. Let's assume it's by weight...

Now the average human at rest breathes in approximately 7 to 8 liters of air per minute. If we multiply this number by 60(minutes) and then by 8(hours), the average human would be inhaling between 3360 - 3840 Liters of air within an 8 hour work day (This estimate is low as it is applicable to only resting rate of breathing). We then multiply 3360 (L) * 1000 (ml) and that gives us between 3,360,000 ml - 3,840,000 ml of air inhaled per day.

Math so far seems reasonable. Call it 3500 liters of air, just as a round number. That would be 3.5 cubic meters. At standard temperature and pressure, that would be ~4.5 kilograms of air. One part per thousand would be 4.5 grams. One part per million would be 4.5 milligrams. Multiply by 0.02 and we get 0.09 milligrams or 90 µg exposure per day.

Now we have something we can compare to the ppm (aka µg/ml) values we see in e-liquid test results. If you vape say, 5ml a day of a liquid with 500 µg/ml, your daily exposure is 2500 µg.

Still think it's overblown?

 

[Mr.Mann]

Halo has never come under question for lying about ingredients. I imagine if they were, they would release such reports. I also imagine their juice has been thoroughly tested by competitors and 'gotcha' types.

Perhaps you should ask on the Halo forum-

Halo | E-Cigarette Forum

I'm sure Johnny Blaze or Rockin Randle will answer your questions...

Perhaps this is why there is a difference between large, lab juice vendors- like Halo, Johnson Creek and NJOY, and those who visit the cake section at Walmart to buy their ingredients. Perhaps this is why Halo, Johnson Creek and AIV cost more than vendors like MBV...

Yeah, just don't ask JB what Halo's PG/VG ratio is. I see it as the same thing, sorta. Not really, but to some people, yep. For the sake of balance though, those that take issue with this just don't buy from them.

 

[stevegmu]

Yeah, just don't ask JB what Halo's PG/VG ratio is. I see it as the same thing, sorta. Not really, but to some people, yep. For the sake of balance though, those that take issue with this just don't buy from them.

Not disclosing ratios is a lot different than lying about DA or AP...

 

[Mr.Mann]

I do have personal feelings about diketones, but my issue has, since almost the beginning of my issues, been about vendors making objective claims about their products when they don't have any proof. Just don't say, say it with proof, or say you don't know and there's nothing to prove. Right now if I wanted to vape some diketone rich liquids I would know where to buy them. I don't care about them selling that stuff, but I do take issue when I KNOW they are selling diketone-rich liquids and they have the words "no added diacetyl" or "dicaetyl-free" with no proof.

Not disclosing ratios is a lot different than lying about DA or AP...

Maybe to you, but not to someone with sensitivities to certain solvents. I have never heard of a diketone allergy. hahaha. My comparison was to show that if a vendor is exalted for transparency, they need to be brought back down to earth for a lack of transparency for the most simple of requests. Not comparing the what but the how.

 

[zoiDman]

Going back to the beginning:


Is that by weight or by volume? It doesn't matter too much when we're talking about liquids that have a similar density, but here I think it might. Let's assume it's by weight...


Math so far seems reasonable. Call it 3500 liters of air, just as a round number. That would be 3.5 cubic meters. At standard temperature and pressure, that would be ~4.5 kilograms of air. One part per thousand would be 4.5 grams. One part per million would be 4.5 milligrams. Multiply by 0.02 and we get 0.09 milligrams or 90 µg exposure per day.

Now we have something we can compare to the ppm (aka µg/ml) values we see in e-liquid test results. If you vape say, 5ml a day of a liquid with 500 µg/ml, your daily exposure is 2500 µg.

Still think it's overblown?

As long as we are Trying to be Comparative...

I wonder if the Absorption Rates be for a Chemical such as a Diacetone would be the same when it is Airborne in a 35% ~ 40% Relative Humidity verses being Inhaled in a PG/VG produced Vapor?

 

[Rossum]

As long as we are Trying to be Comparative...

I wonder if the Absorption Rates be for a Chemical such as a Diacetone would be the same when it is Airborne in a 35% ~ 40% Relative Humidity verses being Inhaled in a PG/VG produced Vapor?

Good question. Notice I said "exposure".

Oh, and Diacetone? Is that in our liquids too?

 

[stevegmu]

I do have personal feelings about diketones, but my issue has, since almost the beginning of my issues, been about vendors making objective claims about their products when they don't have any proof. Just don't say, say it with proof, or say you don't know and there's nothing to prove. Right now if I wanted to vape some diketone rich liquids I would know where to buy them. I don't care about them selling that stuff, but I do take issue when I KNOW they are selling diketone-rich liquids and they have the words "no added diacetyl" or "dicaetyl-free" with no proof.



Maybe to you, but not to someone with sensitivities to certain solvents. I have never heard of a diketone allergy. hahaha. My comparison was to show that if a vendor is exalted for transparency, they need to be brought back down to earth for a lack of transparency for the most simple of requests. Not comparing the what but the how.

Who said they are exalted for transparency? They are popular for making lab quality e-liquid which is consistent, vapes well and free of diketones/AP. Since they began they have been on top of the diacetyl/AP issue and chose not to use such ingredients.
If someone feels they are allergic to PG they should look elsewhere. They have always said they are greater than 50% PG...

 

[Thundernoggin]

......Maybe to you, but not to someone with sensitivities to certain solvents. I have never heard of a diketone allergy. hahaha. My comparison was to show that if a vendor is exalted for transparency, they need to be brought back down to earth for a lack of transparency for the most simple of requests.

Exactly. I bought a bunch of Halo as my first vendor to quit smoking, had no idea that I was PG sensitive, and no way of knowing that Halo was chock full of it. I sounded like Bea Arthur for a few weeks before I figured it out and it wound up souring me on the brand. If it wasn't for finding ECF and the Velvet Cloud thread I would have went back to cigarettes.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Exactly. I bought a bunch of Halo as my first vendor to quit smoking, had no idea that I was PG sensitive, and no way of knowing that Halo was chock full of it. I sounded like Bea Arthur for a few weeks before I figured it out and it wound up souring me on the brand. If it wasn't for finding ECF and the Velvet Cloud thread I would have went back to cigarettes.

Hell, a few years ago there were threads popping up all the time about this! (People that don't know can do a search here for "Halo PG/VG ratio" and see.) People were really ...... and just wanted disclosure. I am only pointing this out because it was weird for me to see Halo being brought into this as being transparent. It was kinda funny really.

 

[Rossum]

I also started with Halo (both their juice and their Triton tanks). I'm not particularly sensitive to PG, but their juices do dry out my mouth and throat more than I'd like, and I'm much happier vaping something that's at least 60% VG. If I had to vape Halo juice, I'd cut it 50-50 with straight VG. But unless you want tobacco or menthol/mint flavors, their selection is rather sparse. In fact, I can only think of two flavors they have that don't include either tobacco or menthol/mint notes.

 

[zoiDman]

Good question. Notice I said "exposure".

Oh, and Diacetone? Is that in our liquids too?

Perhaps? I was going to Test the Bottle of Five Pawns that I have but I am afraid they will Sue Me if I make the Results Public.

Diketone



---

Yes... Exposure and Absorption are definitely two Different Animals.

What I was just wonder is if the Same Amount of a Chemical like say Acetyl Propionyl is present in the given volume of "Air" and in the Same volume of e-Cigarette Vapor, if the Absorption rates would be the Same?

 

[stevegmu]

Perhaps? I was going to Test the Bottle of Five Pawns that I have but I am afraid they will Sue Me if I make the Results Public.

Diketone



---

Yes... Exposure and Absorption are definitely two Different Animals.

What I was just wonder is if the Same Amount of a Chemical like say Acetyl Propionyl is present in the given volume of "Air" and in the Same volume of e-Cigarette Vapor, if the Absorption rates would be the Same?

You can test it at home like beer. You need 2 samples. Heat one to a certain temperature and leave the other. The one which is heated should smell somewhat buttery compared to the one which isn't heated. Smell both and compare...

 

[Mr.Mann]

In the end, I just think people want options--whether anyone sees their desired options as valid or not isn't really the point. Obviously having the option of finding a vendor open enough to post their PG/VG ratio is as easy as clicking your mouse, so Halo could easily be passed up in lieu of others that reveal the simplest of the simple. Diketone-free vendors was up until recently VERY hard to find. And while some may dislike the whole push for this, the fact is that now vapers are able to find at least what they think they want or don't want. After the whole VS tests being posted, even Mr.Good Vape is reformulating for diketone-free. That is huge and shows that this is important to even some vendors (and I doubt anyone would call those vendors out as creating a panic for doing this, even though them doing this shows they feel it is worth it for some reason -- even if they're just either trying to do the "right" thing or trying to keep money flowing.) Not all have to do this nor will most, but at least now vapers have options. We can all have our coke and a smile and shut-up!

 

[Racehorse]

Shamrock E-liquid | Halo E Liquid I think there better known for there tobacco flavors to say the least.

I have this one. I've vaped all the HALO stuff (I can't use because of high PG and I can only handle about 20% before the leg cramps start for me) and the Shamrock is just some menthol and chocolate, probably a clear chocolate. I mostly taste the menthol.

Honestly, looking thru HALOs menu, i kinda knew there wouldn't be diketone levels, I mean, they don't have any flavors like that. Most are tobaccos, the rest are menthols or variations on menthols.

 

[Racehorse]

You consider that a creamy flavor? Have you vaped it?

Perhaps you should ask in the Halo forum...

Halo | E-Cigarette Forum

see my reply above. It's not creamy in the least. Tastes like menthol with a little tad of clear chocolate flavor....the juice is very light colored.

 

[stevegmu]

see my reply above. It's not creamy in the least. Tastes like menthol with a little tad of clear chocolate flavor....the juice is very light colored.

None of their flavors are creamy or buttery; there's a reason for that...