Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jode

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 9, 2014
1,083
4,419
61
Seabrook, NH, USA
But in 6 years of live studies, no humans were harmed. My sympathies to the rats. Rats should not vape those flavorings, for sure.

This made me chuckle!!! Thanks for this and your attention to this debate. I have been silent because you, @Jman8 and a few others have stated my views way better then I ever could. The only thing I will add to this conversation is to say that I feel badly for anybody that lets fear of the unknown rule their lives.
 

Jode

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 9, 2014
1,083
4,419
61
Seabrook, NH, USA
These millions of vapers have been monitored for the past 5-6 years? Can you provide a link for the study involving vapers under clinical monitoring and study over the past 5-6 years?

Maybe not in an actual study but I would say most adults do go for an annual exam and most are probably pretty honest with their doctors about vaping so it follows that if doctors were seeing a trend of decreased lung function we would be hearing about it.
 

stevegmu

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 10, 2013
11,630
12,348
6992 kilometers from home...
Maybe not in an actual study but I would say most adults do go for an annual exam and most are probably pretty honest with their doctors about vaping so it follows that if doctors were seeing a trend of decreased lung function we would be hearing about it.

I think most new vapers these days are barely adults and more than likely don't go to a doctor for yearly exams. Look at all the posts on the forum where someone can't breathe or is having chest pains and they ask on here first if what they are experiencing is normal. I have also seen a number of posts where they won't tell their doctor they are vaping for fear of insurance rates going up...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Racehorse

Mr.Mann

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 30, 2011
17,401
40,572
48
All over the place
None of their flavors are creamy or buttery; there's a reason for that...

Yeah, buttery flavors don't taste as good out of cartos. Ha! In the beginning they were kings of cartos and at that time tobacco flavors reigned supreme. I wonder if Halo, if they were a new company, would come out with the same line-up. Don't think so. But I love Halo, or rather, I love Prime 15. I liked it better before it got smoothed out, but it's still good. I just find it hard (or odd) to compare old vendors to new ones. It's like comparing cartos to RDAs. And I am not saying that Halo couldn't change if they wanted to, but why would they? They got their segment of the market sewed up. But is that segment really where the bulk of us are? I think in this situation it would be more apropos to talk about MOV or vendors like them. Just my thinking.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rossum

stevegmu

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 10, 2013
11,630
12,348
6992 kilometers from home...
Yeah, buttery flavors don't taste as good out of cartos. Ha! In the beginning they were kings of cartos and at that time tobacco flavors reigned supreme. I wonder if Halo, if they were a new company, would come out with the same line-up. Don't think so. But I love Halo, or rather, I love Prime 15. I liked it better before it got smoothed out, but it's still good. I just find it hard (or odd) to compare old vendors to new ones. It's like comparing cartos to RDAs. And I am not saying that Halo couldn't change if they wanted to, but why would they? They got their segment of the market sewed up. But is that segment really where the bulk of us are? I think in this situation it would be more apropos to talk about MOV or vendors like them. Just my thinking.

If the FDA comes town far harder than expected, who do you think is going to be around after- Sour Batch kids or Halo?...
They are the largest or second largest e-liquid manufacturer in the U.S., I believe...
Never heard of MOV...
 

stevegmu

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 10, 2013
11,630
12,348
6992 kilometers from home...
This is Something that I find Extremely Disturbing.

Research threads concerning insurance and you will see a number of posters who have stated they lie to their insurance and doctors. I once stated the insurance company would never know if they were honest to their doctor and someone posted they work in insurance processing, or some such, and the doctors report/ notes go to the insurance company...
 

Mr.Mann

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 30, 2011
17,401
40,572
48
All over the place
If the FDA comes town far harder than expected, who do you think is going to be around after- Sour Batch kids or Halo?...
They are the largest or second largest e-liquid manufacturer in the U.S., I believe...
Never heard of MOV...

Sour who? Never vaped them before (but I just got done eating some...for real! Like 10 minutes ago).

Mountain Oak Vapors Premium Tennessee E-Liquid There is MOV. Check out every liquid they sale, and it's quite a few, for their test results.
 

stevegmu

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 10, 2013
11,630
12,348
6992 kilometers from home...

stevegmu

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 10, 2013
11,630
12,348
6992 kilometers from home...
Yeah, if the FDA comes down hard, what nic percentage do you think will be the first to go? :rolleyes:

p.s. I do still vape 24 mg/mL though (at least in the mornings). So I feel ya'.

Could be, hopefully they will start with 3.6% if they touch nic. levels at all, but disposables are upwards of 4.8%...
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,618
1
84,741
So-Cal
Research threads concerning insurance and you will see a number of posters who have stated they lie to their insurance and doctors. I once stated the insurance company would never know if they were honest to their doctor and someone posted they work in insurance processing, or some such, and the doctors report/ notes go to the insurance company...

I've seen it Many Times.

And I Can't Say that I Blame Someone who does Lie about Vaping or Tobacco Use.

There is Just Something Wrong with a the System when someone has to. And a Doctor can not give the Best Medical service if He/She doesn't know Everything that a Person is putting in their Body.
 
  • Like
Reactions: stevegmu

VNeil

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 30, 2014
2,726
6,868
Ocean City, MD
Research threads concerning insurance and you will see a number of posters who have stated they lie to their insurance and doctors. I once stated the insurance company would never know if they were honest to their doctor and someone posted they work in insurance processing, or some such, and the doctors report/ notes go to the insurance company...
More Theater of the Absurd? Are you really trying to convince everyone that the vape world is divided into two groups, teenagers and then people who refuse to even acknowledge their vaping to their doctors? Thus creating a silent epidemic of millions of vapers suffering popcorn lung but no one knows it?

Anyone with eyes and a brain in their head, and reads these fora knows that those are OUTLIERS. Yes, those things are discussed from time to time but the vast majority of people here are adults, middle aged and up, and openly discuss their medical issues with their doctors and discuss that here.

It would be so nice to have an intelligent conversation about this topic but I'm afraid that will not happen.
 

stevegmu

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 10, 2013
11,630
12,348
6992 kilometers from home...
I've seen it Many Times.

And I Can't Say that I Blame Someone who does Lie about Vaping or Tobacco Use.

There is Just Something Wrong with a the System when someone has to. And a Doctor can not give the Best Medical service if He/She doesn't know Everything that a Person is putting in their Body.

I actually don't see how it is legal for a doctor's notes to go to the insurance company...
 

Rossum

Eleutheromaniac
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 14, 2013
16,081
105,232
SE PA
Why Our E-Liquids Are The Best | Motley Brew

Anybody get a chance to grab a free bottle today ?
I'd never heard of them before.

They claim to be DA-free, but say nothing about AP.

They also claim "Formulas FDA Registered / All formulations on file with the FDA". What does that mean, exactly? Is the FDA already accepting product registrations for stuff that it hasn't yet deemed to be under its jurisdiction?
 

stevegmu

Moved On
ECF Veteran
May 10, 2013
11,630
12,348
6992 kilometers from home...
I'd never heard of them before.

They claim to be DA-free, but say nothing about AP.

They also claim "Formulas FDA Registered / All formulations on file with the FDA". What does that mean, exactly? Is the FDA already accepting product registrations for stuff that it hasn't yet deemed to be under its jurisdiction?

According to some, if it doesn't have DA it must have AP...Seems a little shady...
 

WharfRat1976

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 31, 2014
4,731
5,981
Austin, Texas
Is it?

I've been pretty supportive of da/ap not being present in juices and for transparency in ingredients present in juices, however a few weeks ago I thought about it and realized that the numbers people were exposed to in the manufacturing settings are enormous.

From my understanding ppm is a measurement of volume, so there are 1 million parts to each ml.

The lowest detectable levels found in the manufacturing settings from what I have read were .02ppm.

Now the average human at rest breathes in approximately 7 to 8 liters of air per minute. If we multiply this number by 60(minutes) and then by 8(hours), the average human would be inhaling between 3360 - 3840 Liters of air within an 8 hour work day (This estimate is low as it is applicable to only resting rate of breathing). We then multiply 3360 (L) * 1000 (ml) and that gives us between 3,360,000 ml - 3,840,000 ml of air inhaled per day.

If the lowest concentration per ml that was detectable in these manufacturing areas was .02ppm that would mean that the lowest amount these workers were inhaling across a 8 hour work day was approximately 67,200 ppm - 76,800 ppm

What are your thoughts on this?
The question is simply will that .02 over time create popcorn lung via vaping Diketones in eliquid. The premise answers nothing like all threads on this subject matter.
 

Vapey_McVape

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 8, 2015
185
220
Los Angeles
Going back to the beginning:


Is that by weight or by volume? It doesn't matter too much when we're talking about liquids that have a similar density, but here I think it might. Let's assume it's by weight...


Math so far seems reasonable. Call it 3500 liters of air, just as a round number. That would be 3.5 cubic meters. At standard temperature and pressure, that would be ~4.5 kilograms of air. One part per thousand would be 4.5 grams. One part per million would be 4.5 milligrams. Multiply by 0.02 and we get 0.09 milligrams or 90 µg exposure per day.

Now we have something we can compare to the ppm (aka µg/ml) values we see in e-liquid test results. If you vape say, 5ml a day of a liquid with 500 µg/ml, your daily exposure is 2500 µg.

Still think it's overblown?

Your calculations are way way off, example



NIOSH submits letter to the editor concerning our diacetyl study
"Based on mild and moderate activity, the NIOSH-estimated safety exposure limit would be 86micrograms/day (mild activity) and 302micrograms/day (moderate activity) for diacetyl, and 132micrograms/day (mild activity) and 638micrograms/day (moderate activity) for acetyl propionyl. Our initial calculations considering resting ventilation rate was 65micrograms/day for diacetyl and 137micrograms/day for acetyl propionyl. Thus, the NIOSH-set limits are approximately 50-400% higher than what we considered in our original study, using the worst case scenario."

My calculations fall directly in line with Dr. F's and niosh numbers.

The safety limit number they used for da was .05ppb.

If you convert ppb to ppm its .00005ppm present in the air per each ml of air taken in.

Now, multiply that .00005 by the amount of ml of air taken in a day, what does it give you?
168-192ppm per day, or in other words falls directly in the middle of their numbers.
What are their numbers? 86 - 302ppm per day.

The NIOSH safety limit in the air was .05ppb, vs. the .02ppm number I used that was one of the lower values measured in office settings.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread