Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[stevegmu]

I'm not TRYING to win an argument. That's the whole point and why I haven't and dont' become "viscious". Its not a matter of desperation for me.

Even the people arguing against me have said in the topics that I have not been viscious and that I have been polite. So I do take exception to having my posts characterized otherwise.

All I've ever said is that based on the limits I've seen, as well as thoughts from Dr. F. and Dr. Hubbs, I have concerns about vaping DA and AP, which don't even have to be in ejuice.

Like I said, it is my own personal decision to trust vape-friendly medical researchers (who are NOT anti-vaping, who are not ANTZ) because they have no financial incentive to their pronouncements........over politicians, vaping activists, and bottle fillers who are less able to be as objective for obvious reasons and who do not have medical/research training.

If some vendors want to eventually prove, with actual peer reviewed published studies, that I need not be concerned, then I will re-consider my decision NOT to vape AP and DA.

Where it stands now is that it has taken me over a year just to get test results from vendors, and then it seems like some of them turn out to be HUGE arguments about who did it, if they did it correctly, what the lab settings were, the dates it was done, and differences between their own labs and somebody else's labs, etc.

In other words, a ton of obsfucation.

I don't need it. I'm not here to protect anyone's brand or bash it either. All I want is straight numbers......not excuses about numbers.

Now, unfortunately, we not only have members attacking other members, but vendors attacking members here (basically, calling Steve an ANTZ).

It's really getting out of hand.

The vendors on here posting are upset because they can't make an e liquid anyone would buy without it being laden with diacetyl, AP or butyric acid. Mix some Hangsen with 20% diacetyl and it would probably fly off the shelves... I wouldn't be shocked if thats what some vendors are doing...

 

[Wow1420]

Here is the link to the study I mentioned... A retrospective study on the health effects of vaping | E-Cigarette Forum
Very interesting read, and as expected positive health changes after vaping/quitting massively overwhelmed the very few reported negative changes.

From the linked survey -

There were 120 previous smokers surveyed who had no adverse events documented while smoking. Of these 120 people there were two who developed adverse effects after beginning to use electronic cigarettes. One was in a 48 year old female who had been a half pack a day smoker and who had switched to vaping approximately one year prior. Her adverse effects were shortness of breath, acute and chronic bronchitis, and recurring respiratory infections.

So one person out of 120 did report adverse effects. You keep saying these people don't exist. Could it have been caused by prior smoking? Sure. And the adverse effects from years of smoking are much, much worse. I'm not saying that one person self-reporting proves anything. But I wanted to point it out since you keep going on about how no one at all ever reports problems.

 

[KattMamma]

Alice In Vapeland, Halo, Johnson Creek, NJOY... Would you like me to research a whole list for you? If you think a vendor can't make good e-liquid without suspect ingredients, so be it...

I haven't looked into the others, but I did check out Alice in Vapeland. Their website says they use "natural flavors" and that they are diacetyl-free. No mention of AP.

TPA's blog says it is virtually impossible to make a custard flavor without diacetyl, AP, or acetoin. They use acetoin in their DX flavors. I haven't seen any discussion of acetoin, but I don't believe it has been "studied".

And "natural flavors" - haven't we heard from numerous sources that natural extracts are likely to be more dangerous than artificial flavors?

I'm not trying to say that X is more dangerous than Y, or safer. Just noting that there isn't enough info to draw a conclusion either way. There IS a whole lot of speculation.

To make claims or demands that could affect the public perception of vaping and possibly change the entire industry as a result, is irresponsible without some relevant (to vaping) facts to base such claims on.

 

[englishmick]

Smoking's Impact on the Lungs - Joel's Library

Thanks. This was informative. A bit cringe-making though. I wish he had included pictures of lungs of ex-smokers to show what if any improvements occurred, other than the regrowth of cilia. I'm going to look around the web for that.

 

[stevegmu]

I haven't looked into the others, but I did check out Alice in Vapeland. Their website says they use "natural flavors" and that they are diacetyl-free. No mention of AP.

TPA's blog says it is virtually impossible to make a custard flavor without diacetyl, AP, or acetoin. They use acetoin in their DX flavors. I haven't seen any discussion of acetoin, but I don't believe it has been "studied".

And "natural flavors" - haven't we heard from numerous sources that natural extracts are likely to be more dangerous than artificial flavors?

I'm not trying to say that X is more dangerous than Y, or safer. Just noting that there isn't enough info to draw a conclusion either way. There IS a whole lot of speculation.

To make claims or demands that could affect the public perception of vaping and possibly change the entire industry as a result, is irresponsible without some relevant (to vaping) facts to base such claims on.

The vendor who was upset was saying extraction required esters, diacetyl or AP. Some research into flavor extractions shows there are 'natural' methods of extracting flavors which produce a flavor without the unwanted chemicals. Actual steeping. It costs more and produces less flavoring and even more mild flavor by volume. My guess is this is how Alice In Vapeland has their flavors extracted, especially as some have complained their flavors are a bit mild for their tastes. They also don't make a custard that I know of.
Perhaps he simply can't make a good e-liquid without the chemicals. Many apparently do...

 

[Racehorse]

Some liquid makers took concerns about diketones seriously as far back as 2010, when they were barely discussed on ECF.

Obviously you have done your homework. I have some reading material to share in case anyone wants to revisit earlier discussions, since you are correct, this isn't "new".

I also read almost every post dating back to 2009 on diketones. Including those by Kurt our resident chemist, whose posts first introduced me to the topic of diketones. It wasn't like I manufactured my "concerns" out of thin air.......I didn't even know what diketones were back in 2012 but I started reading:
Search Results for Query: diketones | E-Cigarette Forum

There have also been a number of pharmacists and people with chemistry backgrounds who posted into those topics. Back in 2010, Bill Godshall called people concerned about chemicals in ejuice "chemophobes".
Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids! | Page 34 | E-Cigarette Forum


Most all those topics ended up in (political) flame wars. Even back then, if you had any concerns about vaping diketones and other chemicals, you were hailed as somehow the enemy, helping the ANTZ, and it was pretty much an underlying thought that you shouldn't even bring it up in public, as it "hurt the cause."
Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP | E-Cigarette Forum

I realize the vaping industry has been under a lot of scrutiny but that is no reason to put the cabash on this subject matter and certainly no reason to start calling consumers who are vapers by names like ANTZ and enemies.

I think there has been some rudeness in the topics, by both members and by vendors, and I think (hope) we can express our concerns without engaging in personal attacks and name-calling.


We all deserve the right to make an informed choice about what we inhale without being called names.

Their website says they use "natural flavors"

It is true that organic flavors cannot be made diacetyl free because there are naturally-occuring chems in them......in lab made flavorings those things can be removed.

Dunno what "natural flavorings" is though. Seems like a nebulous term. Organic versus lab-created synthetic are the only kinds of flavorings there really are that I am aware of?

 

[englishmick]

If your not partaking in diketones anymore what are you substituting them with ?

I really don't know. I only came to the decision to avoid DK's a few weeks ago. All I can say is that I have juice on my table made with flavorings from a vendor who I have some level of confidence doesn't include DK's. All I'm doing is making a choice based on my best assessment of very limited information.

 

[VNeil]

From the linked survey -


So one person out of 120 did report adverse effects. You keep saying these people don't exist. Could it have been caused by prior smoking? Sure. And the adverse effects from years of smoking are much, much worse. I'm not saying that one person self-reporting proves anything. But I wanted to point it out since you keep going on about how no one at all ever reports problems.

She was an outlier, representing less than 1% of that group within the survey, with no other info provided. She may have had an unrelated respiratory infection at the time she completed the survey (there was just not enough data there to make much sense of it).

I would hope you would take my comments in the spirit they were intended. And if you have knowledge of these outliers, feel free to link them here.

 

[stevegmu]

When agency worker Martin Muir (right) was offered a full-time job by flavourings firm Firmenich in 2003, he thought he was lucky. “It was alright. I could see I could get further up if I put my head down and got on,” he recalled.

Within three years, exposure to an artificial butter flavouring used in thousands of products including frozen dinners, baked goods, home baking products, crisps, snacks, sweets, butter substitutes, sprays and oils and other processed foods, had cost the father of four his marriage, his health and his job. “When you do lung function tests it gives you a lung age. I come out about 80 years old,” Martin said. “If I run upstairs, I’m out of breath. I was fit as a butcher’s dog before, I’ve always been healthy. They reckon I’ve lost 25-30 per cent of my lung capacity. It doesn’t sound like a lot but when you try do anything you realise it is.”

In December 2005, the firm, based in Thirsk, North Yorkshire, referred him to a chest physician, who confirmed he had bronchiolitis obliterans, a normally rare but sometimes life-threatening condition. The work link was only spotted at all because he was by chance referred to one of the few UK specialists familiar with the US cases.


Diacetyl - the lung destroyer

In the US, hundreds of food workers have been affected by bronchiolitis obliterans, caused by exposure to diacetyl – a flavouring found in brand name products present in most UK kitchens. So far over 500 claims have been filed. Around 100 compensation claims totalling tens of millions of pounds have already been settled, one single claim agreed at around £10 million. At least three affected workers have died.

<Snip> [Moderated due to Forum rules regarding Copyright]





Food flavouring wrecked my lungs - Hazards 101 - January-March 2008

 

[sparkky1]

There are a few juice manufactures making there own flavor concentrates none of them being mentioned in the above, I can concur that it is the vanilla / coffee flavor concentrate, most flavors contain 6 chemical ingredients is the most I have gotten out of 5 pawns / Gemini but what they don't tell you is the master chef is adding a dollop of creme / caramel to make the recipe have it's "pop" amazing taste.To answer your question the ones I mentioned above and (I could add 25 more) need to go through a multiple compound ester fermentation process in which they develop keystones, to say the least would not be feasible and make no sense to there profit margin and what there not telling you is they have it made for them from an outside flavor lab so my sources say and are patented so to speak so not to be available to public.

Look at the terminology "extracted / all natural" they use on "certain" recipes as if the whole recipe or others contains no chemical compounds......
Grand Reserve "Crèmè De La Crème"
Castle Long - Five Pawns

As for Halo "no Diacetyl added" ask them what there "chemist" are substituting it with for there GRAS approved food additives ........

 

[VNeil]

From the linked survey -


So one person out of 120 did report adverse effects. You keep saying these people don't exist. Could it have been caused by prior smoking? Sure. And the adverse effects from years of smoking are much, much worse. I'm not saying that one person self-reporting proves anything. But I wanted to point it out since you keep going on about how no one at all ever reports problems.

You really ought to be absolutely amazed at the near unanimity of that survey. Unless you have an agenda that forces you to nit pick any possible angle to try to disprove and discredit what I said. I know I was amazed because I would have thought some higher percentage of people would have had unrelated issues (that they might not be able to untangle) or, in other groups, issues related to smoking that they could not untangle.

 

[stevegmu]

As for Halo "no Diacetyl added" ask them what there "chemist" are substituting it with for there GRAS approved food additives ........

Halo doesn't make a custard flavor...
The test results speak for themselves...

Halo's eLiquid Test Results | HaloCigs Blog

 

[sparkky1]

Halo doesn't make a custard flavor...
The test results speak for themselves...

Halo's eLiquid Test Results | HaloCigs Blog

Do they make there own creme flavor ?

 

[stevegmu]

Do they make there own creme flavor ?

I don't know. Which flavor are you referring to which is creamy? I have vaped all of their liquids and can't think of one which is creamy...

 

[sparkky1]

Safety Assessment and Regulatory Authority to Use Flavors: Focus on E-Cigarettes | FEMA

 

[sparkky1]

I don't know. Which flavor are you referring to which is creamy? I have vaped all of their liquids and can't think of one which is creamy...

Shamrock E-liquid | Halo E Liquid I think there better known for there tobacco flavors to say the least.

 

[sparkky1]

How about the best sellers as to date that the other 147,000 people admire the most ?

 

[stevegmu]

Shamrock E-liquid | Halo E Liquid I think there better known for there tobacco flavors to say the least.

You consider that a creamy flavor? Have you vaped it?

Perhaps you should ask in the Halo forum...

Halo | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[sparkky1]

I haven't looked into the others, but I did check out Alice in Vapeland. Their website says they use "natural flavors" and that they are diacetyl-free. No mention of AP.

TPA's blog says it is virtually impossible to make a custard flavor without diacetyl, AP, or acetoin. They use acetoin in their DX flavors. I haven't seen any discussion of acetoin, but I don't believe it has been "studied".

And "natural flavors" - haven't we heard from numerous sources that natural extracts are likely to be more dangerous than artificial flavors?

I'm not trying to say that X is more dangerous than Y, or safer. Just noting that there isn't enough info to draw a conclusion either way. There IS a whole lot of speculation.

To make claims or demands that could affect the public perception of vaping and possibly change the entire industry as a result, is irresponsible without some relevant (to vaping) facts to base such claims on.

Sorry I just read this.
I back your analogy 150 % That's all these flavor chemist do all day is make insanely flavorful concentrates and to think they have come up with some magic fairy dust to make a specific concentrate for e juice inhalation without keytones let alone some vape chef you need to wake up.

 

[sparkky1]

Halo doesn't make a custard flavor...
The test results speak for themselves...

Halo's eLiquid Test Results | HaloCigs Blog

What are they using as a substitute "magic" ?