Judge caught vaping his way through high-profile murder trial

[Izan]

The guy is a giant dingus, its no different than the ...... I've seen blowing clouds in movie theaters & restaurants, or the kids doing it in crowded streets in the city next to babies in strollers.

Believe it or not there are people who don't want to be breathing second hand clouds, we already know there's carcinogens/aldehydes above certain temps (which, it's only something like 5% of us is using temp control), leeching metals, etc & more testing needs to be done to ascertain the safety of it. Which, if we're honest with ourselves, we had at least an inkling all these years. In some ways it's more physically obtrusive bc of the size & stickiness. At least smokers have the decency to do it outdoors & away from other people.

HEY!!!
I resemble those statements!

"I think. To the past or to the future, to an age when thought is free, from the Age of Big Brother, from the Age of the Thought Police, from a dead man --- greetings!"
I

 

[Antwoord]

Hey Man. Don't Sugar Coat.

Quit Beating Around the Bush and Tell Us what you Really Feel.

Yeah I think I got a little too bent out of shape there. I've been dealing with gout for a week. Think it's getting to me.

 

[Rossum]

At least smokers have the decency to do it outdoors & away from other people.

Smokers do not go out behind the garbage dumpster by choice.

 

[stols001]

. At least smokers have the decency to do it outdoors & away from other people.

Uh, that's not "decency" that was ever increasing "squeezing" to be moved to hidden corners and unhappy corals.

It's also far harder to stealth smoke. I'm just saying that if some smokers thought they could, they would.

I think e-cigs will continue heading that way due to desire for regulation, not because most vapers "feel" it's a decent idea. Some of them clearly don't (judge).

Anna

 

[untar]

Believe it or not there are people who don't want to be breathing second hand clouds, we already know there's carcinogens/aldehydes above certain temps (which, it's only something like 5% of us is using temp control), leeching metals, etc & more testing needs to be done to ascertain the safety of it.

There's no need to spread studies that were debunked over and over again, we shouldn't do our opponents work for them.

All I agree with is that some people don't want clouds in their face and that is how they feel and that should absolutely be respected. That is enough for me to not bother them with my vaping, I also don't go around in a restaurant and fart into peoples meals. Unless I know I'm welcome to vape I won't, and that is more courtesy than any smoker ever displayed towards me in my entire life.

If, hypothetically, it was shown second hand clouds don't pose any risk at all would that then mean I can go around blowing my vape into peoples faces? Certainly not, so that's not even the argument for not going on peoples nerves. All that's needed for that is some common sense and respect for others, not more studies that show how harmful or not harmful our clouds are.

 

[zoiDman]

Yeah I think I got a little too bent out of shape there. I've been dealing with gout for a week. Think it's getting to me.

I kinda figured there was Something else going on.

Hope you Feel Better.

 

[kiba]

Smokers do not go out behind the garbage dumpster by choice.

At least it's away from others, they know to only do it in the dark corners of the earth, lol.. It's been forever since ifve seen someone try to light up in a busy crowd, restaurant, or someone else's car. but I see vapers do it all the time... Matter of fact my mom was just complaining about my brother's friend, she was giving them a ride to the train & he had kept doing it in her car after she asked him repeatedly to let her pull over. She does not vape, said it smelled gross, filled up the car even though he was blowing it out the window & made her cough.

Uh, that's not "decency" that was ever increasing "squeezing" to be moved to hidden corners and unhappy corals.

It's also far harder to stealth smoke. I'm just saying that if some smokers thought they could, they would.

I think e-cigs will continue heading that way due to desire for regulation, not because most vapers "feel" it's a decent idea. Some of them clearly don't (judge).

Anna

I'm just saying they seem far less arrogant & don't try to do it in public places like it's their right. Been in many restaurants where this happened. Also stealth vaping is something that imo is either never done right, or doesn't exist. I was in a theater for the latest star wars with my gf, next to us was a woman with her kid, behind them was a man who was "stealth vaping" (basically just blowing clouds down under the seats) & making both of them cough, they asked him twice to stop & eventually had to go & get someone. Point being I see this type of arrogance from vapers all the time while smokers seem to know their place.

There's no need to spread studies that were debunked over and over again, we shouldn't do our opponents work for them.

All I agree with is that some people don't want clouds in their face and that is how they feel and that should absolutely be respected. That is enough for me to not bother them with my vaping, I also don't go around in a restaurant and fart into peoples meals. Unless I know I'm welcome to vape I won't, and that is more courtesy than any smoker ever displayed towards me in my entire life.

If, hypothetically, it was shown second hand clouds don't pose any risk at all would that then mean I can go around blowing my vape into peoples faces? Certainly not, so that's not even the argument for not going on peoples nerves. All that's needed for that is some common sense and respect for others, not more studies that show how harmful or not harmful our clouds are.

debunked? Our own members here on ecf have spent significant time & money doing some of these tests in an effort to make vaping safer, if you haven't looked at the carcinogens/temp thread, do yourself a favor. The metals study is also legit.

I think you inferred something extra from what I said, but if vapers can't have the decency to not blow benign vape clouds in someone's face, maybe they *should* consider how safe they are.

 

[untar]

“The “significant amount” of metals the authors reported they found were measured in ug/kg. In fact they are so low that for some cases (chromium and lead) I calculated that you need to vape more than 100 ml per day in order to exceed the FDA limits for daily intake from inhalational medications.”
[...]
“The authors once again confuse themselves and everyone else by using environmental safety limits related to exposure with every single breath, and apply them to vaping. However, humans take more than 17,000 (thousand) breaths per day but only 400-600 puffs per day from an e-cigarette.”
Dr. Konstantionos Farsalinos Research Fellow, Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center, Athens

And yes, I am familiar with high temperature and degrading of liquids and the resulting compounds.
However, it hasn't, to my knowledge, ever been shown that normal operation of a non-temp device results in that temperature range. In fact those are temperatures where cotton starts to burn/smoulder, which can easily be tested with a temperature controlled soldering station and a moderately wet wick.

The reason we shouldn't pester other people with clouds is of social nature first.
The "heavy metals, fine particulate matter and carcinogens clouds" argument isn't relevant for that and I so far haven't seen satisfactory evidence that's even the case in normal operation of our devices.

 

[kiba]

And yes, I am familiar with high temperature and degrading of liquids and the resulting compounds.
However, it hasn't, to my knowledge, ever been shown that normal operation of a non-temp device results in that temperature range. In fact those are temperatures where cotton starts to burn/smoulder, which can easily be tested with a temperature controlled soldering station and a moderately wet wick.

The reason we shouldn't pester other people with clouds is of social nature first.
The "heavy metals, fine particulate matter and carcinogens clouds" argument isn't relevant for that and I so far haven't seen satisfactory evidence that's even the case in normal operation of our devices.

That quote is from farsalinos, who is heavily biased. I looked at the actual study, & while it's still far less dangerous than cigs, it proves there are unknowns still there, perhaps that we haven't even considered yet. I have for a long time been extremely wary of all the stuff that get's put in flavorings for example, but little to no testing has been done on that.

& yeah, it has been proven that temps can easily go within that range if not using temp control especially considering the wattage that some people vape at. Mike, the guy who did the testing, said that he could not taste the aldehydes.

 

[stols001]

Yes, vaping will "win" as a harm reduction method not by saying "second hand vape is harmful." It totally isn't. Not even a little bit and even if one took the "worst" study, I still think it would be less harmful than second hand smoke (and I in no way believe the "worst" studies either).

It should be politeness and also a bit of self-interest too. If you want to wind up being treated like a smoker, then vape like a smoker used to, where the only "safe air" was in elevators, indoors. In short order, vaping everywhere will be banned.... NOT because vaping is harmful, but because people get (rightfully) annoyed. Visible fog or flavor coming out of my mouth isn't going to be harmful, but I don't really expect anyone to enjoy inhaling my visibly inhalable vape, that CAME from my mouth and etc.

It will wind up getting banned anyway, and there's no need to gripe like smokers did, but to just accept the fact that for most of society who has no wish to vape other people's "vape" second hand, and to follow guidelines as indicated in the hopes of "delaying" such actions . They won't be staved off forever ,but every annoyed vaper will be slightly less "rabid" on the topic (possibly) and less likely to vote for draconian legislations.

We "are" the new smokers. I don't quite understand people feeling why vaping would be different, especially given that many of us understand vaping works because it does share some similarities to smoking: visible emission from the mouth/nose, hand to mouth action, nicotine.

I 100% feel that second hand vape is harmless. I 100% feel that the fact I just stated is not (and even perhaps) should not matter.

Anna

 

[untar]

That quote is from farsalinos, who is heavily biased.

Are you saying his argument is wrong?
Or that even if it's right it should be dismissed because of perceived bias?

& yeah, it has been proven that temps can easily go within that range if not using temp control especially considering the wattage that some people vape at

Source?

 

[kiba]

Are you saying his argument is wrong?
Or that even if it's right it should be dismissed because of perceived bias?

Source?

I'm saying he has lost his credibility with me, & don't ask me to do your research for you. lol, that thread is huge. look through mikeE3's post history if you want.

Just be prepared to spend some time.

 

[untar]

don't ask me to do your research for you

You made a claim and therefore it's up to you to provide the source or proof of that claim, not the other way round.
Don't ask me to do your work for you. lol

 

[zoiDman]

And yes, I am familiar with high temperature and degrading of liquids and the resulting compounds.
However, it hasn't, to my knowledge, ever been shown that normal operation of a non-temp device results in that temperature range. In fact those are temperatures where cotton starts to burn/smoulder, which can easily be tested with a temperature controlled soldering station and a moderately wet wick.

....

In No Way a Definitive Result, but here is some Observations for a RTA I have used/use extensively...

Just an Update.

OK... I did a Fresh build on my Subtank Mini. It was 316L 26ga 3mm Coil @ 0.35 Ohms. Put it on a eLeaf Pico with TC set at 420F and 16.0 Watts. e-Liquid is 20%PG | 80% VG Unflavored. Muji Cotton Pancake wicking was flavored with Watermelon/Strawberry DIY. Airflow is set to 35% Open using a Toptank Mini New Style Base.

With my normal 5 ~ 6 Second Hit, on 30 Second Intervals (6 Hits Total), the TC never came on.

Doing a 5 ~ 6 Second Hit, on 5 Second Intervals (6 Hits Total), I did get the TC to come on after the 3rd Hit. And TC did Kick in Very Quickly on the 4th and 5th Hit. On the 6th Hit, TC was on about at the start. And the Normal Flavor had diminished. Not Burnt Tasting. Just Over-Used and in need of Rest tasting.

Also, I was able to get the TC to come on if I did Long Back-2-Back Hits with No Rest Interval between Hits.

Also have a Mild Nic Headache. And am in Need of a Big Glass of Water.

Not sure what Everyone would agree on as being "Normal Operation"? But for what I have read here on the ECF, and seen Outside of the ECF, doing Back-2-Back Hits or even a little Chain Vaping at times doesn't seem all that Out of the Normal.

 

[kiba]

You made a claim and therefore it's up to you to provide the source or proof of that claim, not the other way round.
Don't ask me to do your work for you. lol

It's outside the point, if you don't have any interest in safety then you shouldn't spend the time reading the thread... My point *was* that vapers should be more considerate bc we are fast creating a bad reputation for ourselves.

 

[untar]

My point *was* that vapers should be more considerate

Well we agree 100% on that

Making claims you can't back up is what I don't agree with, as well as dismissing an argument purely on grounds of who said it. That's just not how it works.

 

[kiba]

Well we agree 100% on that

Making claims you can't back up is what I don't agree with, as well as dismissing an argument purely on grounds of who said it. That's just not how it works.

I implore you to read the thread, not gonna say I have read the whole thing but I have at least kept up with the finer points of it. You & anyone for that matter should do the same if interested in safety... maybe @MikeE3 can stop by, if he has the time.

 

[stols001]

Well yes but I think untar's point (and perhaps mine) is that we don't need to cite that second hand vape is so unsafe to be considerate. I don't believe second hand vape is extremely unsafe (and yes, studies can go either way on its "relative" safety, but also some studies are also extraordinarily biased.

I base the conclusion (supported by research I actually believe in) on my own health gains from FIRST HAND vapor. When all my docs and my body are telling me my health has improved, even vaping DIRECTLY, (and I did not use TC my first three or so months vaping, either, and STILL got health gains) I find it hard to credit that my FIRST hand vape is "saving my life" while felling everyone around me with my "second hand" vape. That doesn't make sense. You can find a study on ANYTHING.

Our venerated "TC" researcher has a fish tank in his testing area. Similarly to a canary, I think those fish might have died if "non TC" vaping were so harmful, even. Etc.

So, the argument for me remains AND WILL ALWAYS remain, politeness, courtesy and protecting vaper's social behavior to decrease how soon we will become pariahs. There is no evidence that is credible (to me) about second hand vape, but I don't vape around kids... Mainly for their parent's sake, that and there is no need to "model" harm reduction any more than there is a need to "model" smoking. One of the things I LIKE about vaping is (unlike smoking) unless I AM vaping, no one is going to identify me as a vaper. And I can go far longer without vaping than smoking, etc.

Anna

 

[untar]

Btw I'm aware of that thread, I've read part of it and even posted. Here's a post of mine regarding the subject matter
New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

after that post I sat down and made some experiments with my soldering station. I'm in the process of determining what factors exactly go into the cotton smouldering, I'll put it out when I'm confident I didn't make any stupid error.

I won't go and read 300 pages to maybe find what you perceived to be irrefutable proof of your claim though.

 

[kiba]

I don't think anyone is saying that it's comparable with smoking, what I am saying is that, especially with so many unknowns (we still know basically nothing), normals have the right to have us do it away from them, at least until we know for sure it's as safe as we claim it is... That's not an unreasonable request.

Here's a little story, I recently quit vaping for a while bc #1, I have been doing it for 8 years, #2, for 8 years I have been suffering from some manageable but persistent & annoying health problems & #3, for 8 years my endocrinologist has been bugging me to stop, just to see what happens. During the couple of months I quit vaping those health issues all but disappeared, my appetite increased, more excersize with less fatigue, slept better, had more energy etc.

Also during that time my gf had a talk with me about (she's a vaper) how she thought my vaping had gotten out of hand. The windows were sticky, I was diy'ing batches 3-4 times a week & I had been literally doing it in my sleep without thinking about it, would wake up clutching a mod & when I stopped, her coughing during the night also stopped. I obviously picked it back up again, (traffic is hell in my area) but that conversation caused me to seriously rethink doing it around other people, I now only do it outdoors & in places where people won't be able to breathe it in.