Korean government attacks e-cigarettes

[azzaman]

I don't want to get into a big ole debate, i've had one a little earlier about kids and vaping, so I would rather avoid it.

The whole melamine scandal in milk between a few large chinese companies and a NZ owned company was really shocking, and the view that some people are manufacturing unsafe products to make a $$ is a strong argument. I won't bother arguing that, its true and it happens.

Dekang is a reputable chinese owned company. I buy the bulk of my e liquid from them because of their open book policy and the evidence of how they manufacture their goods.

When purchasing any product, a person needs faith in the product. If you don't have it in chinese made goods then that is fine. I retract my statement of racism.

 

[nopatch]

Wise up. Right. Cheers. Your first reply was quite civil but when the a few start digging, you jump in there as well. Oh well...loyalties to the old boys, I guess.

I did see an article with company names listed and that is why I wrote what I did. I don't talk out of my .... on matters. I have an article from 2009 which names a few...this isn't totally "new" news.

http://www.kca.go.kr/servlet/Download?bid=REPORT_DATA&callback=report_data_list.jsp&num=963.

It is surprising how this 2009 study made fresh news in 2012.From what i gather from google translate and some pics this study appears to me made on cartridges preloaded with juice.It is no surprise the cheap plastic things(Pics in report) had pthalates and what not.

 

[Demo]

I am also not looking for trouble and will be more careful with my words in the future. I maintain that I did see names used on one site, but of course, I cannot seem to find it again now. I will keep looking; not to justify myself, but to add more specific information to the thread.

 

[Bill Godshall]

Demo wrote:

I firmly believe that China does not care at all about anyone who is not Chinese. I would bet money, any amount, that some of the juice from there is indeed deadly. Quality control is rare in China

Some evidence please. I haven't even heard/read any e-cigarette prohibitionists making such outrageous allegations.

Is Demo an e-cigarette prohibitionist, or works for the Korean Ministry of Health?

 

[MegaWaterpipe]

It is surprising how this 2009 study made fresh news in 2012.From what i gather from google translate and some pics this study appears to me made on cartridges preloaded with Juice.It is no surprise the cheap plastic things(Pics in report) had pthalates and what not.

What about the polyfills in those cartridges and cartos? It's plastic, isn't it? Seems to me that polyfills soaked in eliquid could leach bad stuff, such as phthalates, into the liquid.

 

[azzaman]

Demo wrote:



Some evidence please. I haven't even heard/read any e-cigarette prohibitionists making such outrageous allegations.

Is Demo an e-cigarette prohibitionist, or works for the Korean Ministry of Health?

lol... a spy!

 

[Demo]

Demo wrote:



Some evidence please. I haven't even heard/read any e-cigarette prohibitionists making such outrageous allegations.

Is Demo an e-cigarette prohibitionist, or works for the Korean Ministry of Health?

I listed three incidents that serve my point. You could look those up if you please. I admit that they are a narrow sampling, but my world is as yours; somewhat myopic in scope. I encourage you to do some research into the Chinese fake trade Bill. I am not trying to pass the burden of proof on to you, but I am not sure that my writing would convince you of anything anyway.

I believe in checks and balances, government regulation and that people, if left to their own devices in an unchecked market, will do bad things. While I will admit that the current attack on e-cigs in Korea is not pure in motivation, we have to take the good with the bad. My house hasn't been robbed lately, so I appreciate that. I understand the implications of my statement; it is expensive for me to buy juice here now and my choices are very limited. This is unfortunate and I would not describe myself as being 'pleased', but as I said, we have to take the good with the bad. There are options that, while not without some personal risk - the aforementioned dangers as well as monetary penalties - are options nonetheless. Options that exist because of the market - the bad side - that I may be able to exploit to circumvent laws and regulations.

As for my attacks against China: not entirely fair, to be sure (though I will maintain that much of the quality control comes from the sellers protecting themselves and their interests instead of from any governing body). A lot of good things do come from China and many countries that manufacture are prone to make suspect decisions, but we aren't talking about other countries right now, or at least I am not. We could open that topic - what countries are exporting products that are questionable ethically (big tobacco is a relevant one; companies making, selling and exporting a product that kills) - but let's save that for another thread. Factually, the majority of the juices for e-cigs come from China, where, as recent history has "proven" - the track record for quality is apparently viewed as spotty. Am I completely convinced of the Korean (or any) governments' analysis and conclusions? No, not entirely, but again, what choice do I have but to accept it, if I am not going to rally the people and oppose this ban? Or fund a study of my own? I am too lazy/busy to carry the torch for the cause. I am just going to have to live with it and hope against hope, that in the majority of situations, the governments act in my better interests. Naive, perhaps, but as I said, I haven't the means/motivation to prove them wrong and don't want to live as a cynic.

 

[DC2]

I haven't the means/motivation to prove them wrong and don't want to live as a cynic.

Doesn't that kind of mean that you have decided to take what they give you.
And doesn't that also kind of mean that you believe they are more worthy of your trust than an unchecked market?

Have you considered that governments might be an unchecked market?
And have you considered that their own interests are their primary motivation?

In an unchecked market (which I don't wholly believe is good) the public has an ability to make decisions.
In a world where the govenment decides for you, that ability is being slowly removed.

To be honest, I have come to the conclusion that no government on earth has the people as their primary concern.
I have also come to the conclusion that it's not possible to be an honest politician and make it to a position of power to effect change.

If I thought it were possible, I would start planning my future political career.
But I suppose you are right, I have certainly become a cynic in this regard.

Just my thoughts anyway.

 

[D103]

Re: Demo - "And then they came for the Catholics,

but I haven't the means or motivation to speak up

So I remained silent.........and when they came for me there was no one left
to speak up for me."

 

[Demo]

Re: Demo - "And then they came for the Catholics,

but I haven't the means or motivation to speak up

So I remained silent.........and when they came for me there was no one left
to speak up for me."

Banning certain e-liquids vs. exterminating Jews. Context is important to relevance of which the quote has none.

 

[Demo]

Doesn't that kind of mean that you have decided to take what they give you.

In a sense. I will order my supplies from elsewhere. I have no intention of taking up the cause and fighting the good fight on this issue, but I will get what I want, one way or another. Let's not forget that the Janty store is 2 blocks away from me. I just don't like the price.

And doesn't that also kind of mean that you believe they are more worthy of your trust than an unchecked market?

By virtue of what governments are (or, perhaps what they were envisioned as and still claim to be), yes.

Have you considered that governments might be an unchecked market?

No. I am not sure I will try to consider that.

And have you considered that their own interests are their primary motivation?

Yes, and I believe I am one of their interests.

Again, I don't like what is going on, but I have to support it until I decide to uncover some conspiracy or rally enough support to occupy Seoul. Life is too short to get my knickers in that much of a twist over e-liquid, so I place my order online or walk 2 blocks to the Janty store. I have more money than time or interest in kicking a wall until it (may) eventually crack. I will leave that fight to people far better than I, with deep-seated convictions and a thirst for justice.

I just wanna vape.

 

[Ande]

It's not really on the scale of a holocaust, I see what you're saying.

Erm, how many people die of smoking related causes each year?

Hyperbole? Probably. But if you look at the dangers of smoking (which seems to have a secure, government protected market) versus the much lower dangers of vaping (which seems to be on the verge of being banned in many places) you can see why some people DO get worked up.

Still- we all have our causes and our interests, and not everybody gets into every fight. You don't have to get into this one.

But I want to repeat for the record- in this most recent wave of publicity, nobody is talking about "banning certain e-liquids." Nobody is talking about "certain eliquids" at all.

What has happened is, after a test of certain brands of ecig products, the highly questionable results have been released without naming which products were tested. I don't see any way to interpret this, if not as an attempt to sway the public to believe that ecigs are dangerous in general. If they wanted to say merely that some eliquids are dangerous, they would have to say WHICH, or the whole market would suffer.

You seem to believe that expensive brands such as Janty/Ovale are safe from this threat, because their products are better quality. (I agree about the quality- vaping a nice Janty RY4 right now.) But if more people are convinced that vaping is dangerous, people will stop shopping with Janty/ovale, and the shops will close.

It's as simple as that- negative publicity about vaping hurts us all.

Best,
Ande

 

[chet]

cound't agree more Ande.

 

[rolygate]

Hey folks, let's please stop the hardline politics and personal stuff. Thank you.

 

[Demo]

If it isn't about certain liquids, then why are some not being sold anymore? Specifically, the cheap ones are no longer available. I have done some pretty heavy legwork over the last 3 days and the results are all the same: only select brands of liquid are available while many others have been discontinued for sale. I had an extensive discussion with the owner of a "Cosmo" brand store and even he is experiencing difficulty. He has 20 cases of nicotine-free liquid, but can't get his hands on approved liquids. I am not looking for trouble here, but in the shops, this is the result of the recent events.

I don't recall getting personal at all and as for "hardline" politics....are we not allowed to discuss things? What would 'softline' look like? Avoiding any critical thought or engaging in discussions which may take opposing points of view? I think it difficult to discuss legislation - or any political themed topics without some level of friendly, respectful contention. I have been in touch with Ande in PMs and I have absolutely no quarrel with him at all; he seems like a standup guy. We are on the same side regarding vaping in Korea and we share the same profession, both have families....I am not at all interested in making enemies or problems for anyone.

 

[Valsacar]

I have no idea what you mean by approved liquids, I have never read, heard, or seen anything that lists approved vs disapproved liquids. Unless by approved you means ones legally imported for the purpose of resale.

Why would some liquids, such as Janty/Ovale as you mention, still be there but the cheaper ones are closing up? Pretty simple really, those big ones are backed by a large international company that can afford a bump in the road. Most of the others are done by individual businessmen with very little financial support to survive a decline in sales. If things continue on the road they are, you will see your Janty stores close up as well.

 

[Demo]

I see your point Valsacar, but why then would the Technomart sellers tell me that certain liquids are no longer for sale? They are not hurting for money and have no dedicated resources to their e-cig section (off to the side of thier cell phone/camera dispaly cases while the half-empty bottles of 'no longer avaliable' fluid still sit on the display) and furthermore, have many kinds of e-cigs up for sale. Maybe 'approved' is the wrong word, but it certainly seems that some are 'sellable', while others, for some reason, are not.

I am just making somewhat educated guesses here...not trying to sound authoritative, but I really think this fight is about the liquids, not the e-cig as a whole.

As for a complete halt of e-cig sales, I am more optimistic. As with many 'issues' in Korea, a big stink is made for a while and weak efforts are made before it is business (pretty much) as usual. Right now, the gov't is making big money from the taxes and they have scared down the competition within the market and for the market, by instilling fear in the population about use and the retailers about using 'non-approved' fluid, giving the appearance of safety. They have to do something when the media gets a hold of a story and then they, like us, wait for it to fade away. Koreans are fickle in both their loves and hates and have a notoriously short memory (US beef is a good example: huge public outcry with candlelight demonstrations that almost cost a presidency, yet today US beef is the most consumed beef in Korea).

Not arguing, just trying to balance your observations and mine.

The story continues...

 

[Valsacar]

Why would Janty tell me that their juice cost here is purely due to taxes when I know a manager for one of their kiosks and he gave me the full breakdown... far from just taxes. Why does immigration give you a different answer for each person you talk to, or even ask the same person the same question... because it's easier to give an answer than it is to give a correct/honest answer.

 

[Ande]

I think we're quite away from a complete end in sales, but I'll add this to the story.

This week, at work (where I vape openly, pretty much all the time) I've had 5 people tell me how unhealthy it is. :-(

Last week. 2 people.

Prior to last week, nobody, ever.

Word is getting out. And the word is, vaping is bad.

This is a country where it's easy to spread ideas. (Blame Confucianism. Or whatever.) And the idea, as it's spreading, doesn't seem to be "avoid cheap eliquids." It seems to be "don't vape."


Best,
Ande