Korean government attacks e-cigarettes

[rolygate]

Bill, the report was sent to me from Korea, and is faulty: many words are missing. This looks like a formatting/publishing issue rather than redaction.

It is easily translated on Google Translate but I failed to get a hard copy from this, there is some sort of issue with the pagination.

I'll try to get a better-quality original for translation but this is not likely. The original is not really of any kind of document quality even by PR standards. It appears to be a cross between a press release and a lab report, badly put together, and faulty in its Word doc format.

I don't think the Health Ministry will be much help here: they deliberately seem to have left out the brand names tested, which must have included Dekang and Hangsen; and then went public with it just before the Chinese New Year, when Dekang and Hangsen would be closed for two to three weeks. Similar to the way the Dutch government banned e-cigs the day before Christmas - they want to minimise the opportunity for immediate response to the attack.

This is all about a media attack at the most opportune time, removing the victim's ability to respond.

 

[nopatch]

Please note that despite repeated allegations by environmental extremists, there is no scientific evidence indicating that pthalates pose any health risks to humans (or rodents).

The American Council on Science and Health (ACSH) issued a report on phthalates at
Blue Ribbon Panel Report on Plasticizers > Health Issues > ACSH

Apparently ACSH reversed their stand on phthalates.I was just going through wikipedia on acsh.The article says

ACSH had previously defended the safety of phthalates, most recently publishing a critical review in the Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health.[8] ACSH’s advocacy on the issue extends back to 1999, when they worked with former U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop to defend the ingredient used in many soft plastics.[9]

The wikipedia article also say;
ACSH frequently defends industry against claims that its products create risks of injury, ill-health or death, although this contravenes the precautionary principle which is a statutory requirement in some legal systems.[6]

 

[Bill Godshall]

nopatch wrote:

Apparently ACSH reversed their stand on phthalates.

I can assure you that ACSH has not reversed their position on phthalates. As they staunchly opposed legislaiton (sponsored by Sen. Diane Feinstein D-CA) last year that would have banned the use of phthalates in food containers throughout the US.

And just yesterday, ACSH issued a critique about a hospital system in the US that recently decided to not purchase products containing phthalates at
“Green” medical devices: ideology, not science > Facts & Fears > ACSH

nopatch also wrote:

I was just going through wikipedia on acsh.

The first comment on wikipedia cited by nopatch just confirms my statement that ACSH issued a report on the products.

But the second comment on wikipedia cited by nopatch was posted by environmental extremists who oppose ACSH for truthfully informing the public about the actual health risks of various products, and for exposing the extremist goals, strategies and tactics used by environmental extremists (which are very similar to the extremist goals, strategies and tactics used by abstinence-only tobacco prohibitionists who falsely portray themselves as public health experts.

The problem with wikipedia is that it allows organized groups of extremists to go online and attack the character of entities that they don't like, and to engage in historic and scientific revisionism.

Several years ago, some anti-tobacco extremists created a entry on wikipedia for Mike Siegel, which made outrageous and false attacks on him. Wikipedia agreed to eliminate some of the ad hominem attacks only after Siegel repeatedly contacted wikipedia to claim that he was falsely accused.

 

[chet]

Interesting.
When a bottled water is opened and left for few days it usually tastes awful.
Isn't this because of Phthalates?

 

[rolygate]

Perhaps it would be useful to:

- Collate references to research that reports pthalates may have health risks
- Collate references to research that reports pthalates appear to have no health risks
- Try to apply the numbers found to the Korea report

From our point of view it doesn't seem to matter whether or not pthalates have health risks, because to the best of my knowledge, all known e-liquid suppliers use food-grade plastic bottles from which pthalates cannot leach out. Of course, this may not apply to local suppliers in Korea who are unknown here.

I was told by an e-cig industry chemist that one in twenty tests on e-liquid come up positive for pthalates in very low quantities (trace amounts found), and that the vendors change to food-grade bottles on learning of this.

As far as the ACSH goes, we are happy that they refute unfounded accusations against suppliers that are based on speculation, not evidence. This is the reason they support us: there is zero evidence that e-cigarettes have caused or will cause harm (in fact the opposite, since almost all the ingredients are widely used in inhalables and ingestables already).

But if there is some sort of evidence (not speculation) that pthalates may be harmful, in the amounts found in food or otherwise, then it might be interesting to see it.

 

[Vocalek]

Interesting.
When a bottled water is opened and left for few days it usually tastes awful.
Isn't this because of Phthalates?

Nope. Water tastes awful after it sits for a few days regardless of what container it is in. One reason is that all the dissolved oxygen evaporates from the surface of stagnant water. The taste can sometimes be improved by putting the water in a closed container and shaking it up to reintroduce oxygen. Another reason may be that microscopic mold has begun to grow, and mold affects the taste as well. If you leave water sit for many days, a green scum will form on top even if it is in a glass container.

 

[chet]

Nope. Water tastes awful after it sits for a few days regardless of what container it is in. One reason is that all the dissolved oxygen evaporates from the surface of stagnant water. The taste can sometimes be improved by putting the water in a closed container and shaking it up to reintroduce oxygen. Another reason may be that microscopic mold has begun to grow, and mold affects the taste as well. If you leave water sit for many days, a green scum will form on top even if it is in a glass container.

Thanks for the info Vocalek. Whenever I open a bottled water, have a sip or two only and leave it for few days it tastes bad(especially during hot tempreture days), and I find it much less so when I use other type of bottles. Maybe this is BPA thing rather than phthalate... I don't know.

 

[nopatch]

I misread the wikipedia article about acsh.As Bill says ACSH didnt retract their opposition to restrict phalates.

They softened their stand(As per article written by Kramer).

ACSH, it appears is also adamant in their opposition to ban/restrict BPA(Bisphenol).Seems they really look for welfare(Read profitability) of industry.

The wikipedia article is accurate about ACSH defending industry.

 

[nopatch]

Thanks for the info Vocalek. Whenever I open a bottled water, have a sip or two only and leave it for few days it tastes bad(especially during hot tempreture days), and I find it much less so when I use other type of bottles. Maybe this is BPA thing rather than phthalate... I don't know.

BPA(Bisphenol) is ok as per ACSH .

 

[Valsacar]

FYI I'm hearing about this report a few times a day now, and I've been told many brick and mortar stores have closed due to this report. It is definately having the effect that they had intended.

 

[azzaman]

That's a real shame.

 

[Demo]

I have to say I am fine with this. A couple of years ago, baby formula from China killed a couple of kids here. Then some Chinese-made kimchi was making people sick. Then the toxic coffee whitener a year ago, again from China. Watch "the fake trade" on youtube and you will agree that maybe there is something good in this. I buy my juice at a Janty store and while pricey, is clear from the ban. This gives me a measure of confidence. My mate, the guy who prompted me to start vaping, said that some bottles of juice we $30, while others were $3. I told him the $3 stuff would kill him. I firmly believe that China does not care at all about anyone who is not Chinese. I would bet money, any amount, that some of the juice from there is indeed deadly. Quality control is rare in China and only enforced when the company that outsourced to them enforces it. Thus, the bigger names - the ones who have a reputation, like Ovale - need to keep themselves out of the muck. Their juice comes from China, but as I said, they must enforce some measure of quality standard, as they were not named in the investigation. I have been in Korea for 16 years now, and the government is typically lethargic about this kind of consumer intervention. When they do, it is for a reason and as I said, I am thankful for it. I pay a premium for my juice, but the alternative scares the juice out of me. They are not banning the sale of the stuff; they are culling the sick from the herd. I think the title of this thread was somewhat inflammatory; they didn't attack e-cigs per se, just some of the poisonous juice makers.

 

[azzaman]

I am reading a huge racial undertone in your writing.

 

[Ande]

I have to say I am fine with this. A couple of years ago, baby formula from China killed a couple of kids here. Then some Chinese-made kimchi was making people sick. Then the toxic coffee whitener a year ago, again from China. Watch "the fake trade" on youtube and you will agree that maybe there is something good in this. I buy my juice at a Janty store and while pricey, is clear from the ban. This gives me a measure of confidence. My mate, the guy who prompted me to start vaping, said that some bottles of juice we $30, while others were $3. I told him the $3 stuff would kill him. I firmly believe that China does not care at all about anyone who is not Chinese. I would bet money, any amount, that some of the juice from there is indeed deadly. Quality control is rare in China and only enforced when the company that outsourced to them enforces it. Thus, the bigger names - the ones who have a reputation, like Ovale - need to keep themselves out of the muck. Their juice comes from China, but as I said, they must enforce some measure of quality standard, as they were not named in the investigation. I have been in Korea for 16 years now, and the government is typically lethargic about this kind of consumer intervention. When they do, it is for a reason and as I said, I am thankful for it. I pay a premium for my juice, but the alternative scares the juice out of me. They are not banning the sale of the stuff; they are culling the sick from the herd. I think the title of this thread was somewhat inflammatory; they didn't attack e-cigs per se, just some of the poisonous juice makers.

I guess I sort of DO see it as an attack on ecigs per se. Their refusal to name WHICH juices, cartridges, or products they tested certainly points in this direction- if they only wanted to crack down on substandard products, not damage the whole market, they would name names. Then nobody who wasn't guilty need be affected.

BUT...if you look at some of the worries about the lab test (read through this whole thread) you'll see that, in fact, there might not be any substandard products in their test- for all we know it was laboratory error.

Even if the results were legit, though- the refusal to name names points at a calculated design to damage the market as much as possible.

I don't know what makes you think that Janty/ovale were NOT implicated. Without names being named, there's no way to know. And Janty stores are no less likely than any other stores to suffer and close when folks decide that ecigs are bad and go back to cigarettes.

Best,
Ande

 

[Ande]

FYI I'm hearing about this report a few times a day now, and I've been told many brick and mortar stores have closed due to this report. It is definately having the effect that they had intended.

Many brick and mortar stores were sort of worrying anyway (high prices, ignorant staff) but I'm worried to see them closing. And I can confirm that several have shut recently, though I can't confirm the reasons.

Homeplus in Daegu, until recently my local supplier for reasonably priced juice, has taken ecigs and supplied off the shelf. Again, hard to say why, but when I enquired a staff member yelled at me about how unhealthy they are.

Not happy about this.

Ande

 

[ckim111]

I have to say I am fine with this. A couple of years ago, baby formula from China killed a couple of kids here. Then some Chinese-made kimchi was making people sick. Then the toxic coffee whitener a year ago, again from China. Watch "the fake trade" on youtube and you will agree that maybe there is something good in this. I buy my juice at a Janty store and while pricey, is clear from the ban. This gives me a measure of confidence. My mate, the guy who prompted me to start vaping, said that some bottles of juice we $30, while others were $3. I told him the $3 stuff would kill him. I firmly believe that China does not care at all about anyone who is not Chinese. I would bet money, any amount, that some of the juice from there is indeed deadly. Quality control is rare in China and only enforced when the company that outsourced to them enforces it. Thus, the bigger names - the ones who have a reputation, like Ovale - need to keep themselves out of the muck. Their juice comes from China, but as I said, they must enforce some measure of quality standard, as they were not named in the investigation. I have been in Korea for 16 years now, and the government is typically lethargic about this kind of consumer intervention. When they do, it is for a reason and as I said, I am thankful for it. I pay a premium for my juice, but the alternative scares the juice out of me. They are not banning the sale of the stuff; they are culling the sick from the herd. I think the title of this thread was somewhat inflammatory; they didn't attack e-cigs per se, just some of the poisonous juice makers.

What an ignorant statement. Do you realize how much of every day items you use and consume is imported from china? If china really did not care about qc at all, and they only cared about themselves, we'd have a lot more dead and sick people all over the world. Hell maybe even the computer you are using to read and write on this forum might explode and kill you since its most likely made in china too.

China is a big country. The media will portray only the bad because that's deemed newsworthy. However there are many fine items from china that helps keep costs down and allow many of us to afford the everyday luxury items

 

[Ande]

The only reason (that we can be sure of) that Ovale (or any other company) wasn't named in the investigation is that NOBODY was named in the investigation. It has nothing to do with quality control.

This "investigation" if I can dignify it with that name is worrying because it's trying to turn the public here against ecigs. One clever thing they've done to further that end is to play on a common local prejudice against products (and people) from China.

Ande

 

[Demo]

I am reading a huge racial undertone in your writing.

Regarding China? That's humorous (which I will explain momentarily) and quite fine; I make no secret of my disdain at the Chinese for flooding world markets with fake medicines and foods that hurt and kill people. Am I talking about all the Chinese? No, I am talking about some Chinese and the fact that the vast majority of fake foods and medicines flow from from China. Are you aware of the proliferation of fake AIDS medicines coming out of China and being sold at full market price, which is no better for victims than a placebo? Most of African pharmaceuticals are fake; even the pharmacists know it, but can do nothing. They have no FDA to protect them and no money for research. Chinese 'exports' have killed many and will continue to do so until the world takes control of this tide of poison. Did you know they make and market fake eggs? Yes, eggs, made from chemicals in a dirty little shop. Now, you called it racism, which is funny; do you know what race the Chinese are? Yes, the same as my wife and adopted children: they are Asian. So cry racism if you like, but it only undermines your credibility. Just as many people don't like America for one reason or another, or any country for the same arbitrary reasons, I don't like many aspects of China, but my reasoning is very sound and well-informed. I have spent a third of my life in Korea and have many Korean, Japanese, Filipino, Thai, Mongolian, Malaysian and Chinese friends, colleagues and students. I have no quarrel with any man, regardless of skin color, until they start willingly taking advantage of unwitting, helpless people and the broken, underdeveloped, fallible systems in which those victims must trust, all for monetary/economic gain. Now, more on topic: The Chinese have once again affected me directly and you indirectly. The garbage juice coming out of China will be part - a huge part - of e-cigs not gaining widespread acceptance and many people will continue to die from cigarettes. The media and big tobacco will use the numbers and carcinogenic stats that will arise from this cheap, low-quality juice to trump up the evils of this life-saving alternative and as I said, ultimately, people will continue to die. Sure, many people profit from evil things, and big tobacco is no exception. However, a 1 minute Google will show you factually what you are smoking; there is no veil in front of tobacco. People choose this, unlike fake foods and medicines where poeple think they are making choices, but they are in a zero-sum game; they are duped and doomed. I am very, very passionate about this issue and again, if you read racism, you are simply unenlightened. You should be reading a big anti-China tone - not undertone, as I make no obscurity about my feelings in my writing. This is however, an extremely well-informed decision which I will avidly speak of and support until it stops or I die. There is an agenda at work here, my fellow vaper; a dark agenda indeed. Please, I invite you to do some research on China and the markets it prospers in. I realize you may be asking if I wear a tinfoil hat - and perhaps understandably - but I assure you, I do not. I am a rational, pragmatic person by nature, but with that, I also must admit to be being a realist. Sorry for the rant, but for you to imply that I am racist is just ignorant, considering how little you apparently know about what I am writing of or what I actually write. There was zero racism in my post.

 

[Demo]

A follow up on Demo's post - read this whole thread. Please. And you'll see that the only reason (that we can be sure of) that Ovale wasn't named in the investigation is that NOBODY was named in the investigation. It has nothing to do with quality control.

This "investigation" if I can dignify it with that name is worrying because it's trying to turn the public here against ecigs. One clever thing they've done to further that end is to play on a common local prejudice against products (and people) from China.

Looks like it's working.

Wise up,
Ande

Wise up. Right. Cheers. Your first reply was quite civil but when the a few start digging, you jump in there as well. Oh well...loyalties to the old boys, I guess.

I did see an article with company names listed and that is why I wrote what I did. I don't talk out of my .... on matters. I have an article from 2009 which names a few...this isn't totally "new" news.

http://www.kca.go.kr/servlet/Download?bid=REPORT_DATA&callback=report_data_list.jsp&num=963.

 

[Ande]

This thread is to important to those of us who vape in Korea to let it get divisive and divided. I edited my previous post to remove rudeness.

Those of us who live here (and others) need to see this for what it is. It is NOT a quality control measure. It's an attack on the ecig industry as a whole, by deceitful methods.


If we don't hang together, we're gonna hang separately.

Ande