Let's start Looking for Alternatives to SS Mesh

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keenanmcfar

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So both nichrome and kanthal have chromium in them. After doing a fair bit of research on crIV it seems the wire is also a very likely candidate for an inhalation vessel. At any rate its still better by a very large margin than smoking, health wise. Thats even with the ss mesh in the mix. I agree it would definitely be better to eliminate the wick as an additional source, though. Ceramics look very promising. Cotton does wonders but imo will never wick like the mesh did for gennies. Tried it on one before and it was ok but not amazing. Does anybody know if a chromium free resistance wire exists?
 

Hello World

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you do know that the 3/32 wicks are smaller then the 1/8 wicks right? so much for ceramic wicks. anyways the 1/8 are supposed to fit the did's/ ac-9. the 3/32 wicks to fit the cobra/aga/zens
I've ordered 3 more AGA-T2s and will bore one of them out and see how the 1/8" fc-2000 wick fares. I figure the larger ceramic wick is probably a little less prone to accidental breakage.

My Z-Atty is kinda holy to me at this point and couldn't fathom potentially messing it up. Besides, it has worked so ever über-perfect since the day I got it.
 

Rule62

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That's interesting, I never really understood what it is that is supposed to provide electrical isulation to a torched SS mesh. Are these iron carbides, chromium carbides or both? And is it a known fact that carbides insulate, or is it just assumed that something must be doing it and carbides are a good candidate? Is it known if oxides have any role in insulating the mesh? I can't seem to find any solid info on the interwebnets.

Bear in mind that I'm not a metallurgist. I'm just an old welder, with experience in working with various grades of stainless steel. What I say may be subject to correction.
All stainless steel contains carbon, in various percentages, depending on the grade. When stainless steel is heated, the carbon in the metal begins to precipitate toward the surface. In most applications, aside from our purposes, this is something fabricators wish to avoid, because this carbide precipitation has a detrimental affect on the integrity of the stainless. This is why stainless steel, when improperly fabricated, will actually develop rust, in areas adjacent to welds which have been done without proper technique/procedure. It's due to the carbon, which has precipitated to the surface. The most critical temperature range at which this happens is between 800°F and 1400°F. The longer the metal remains within this range, the more of the carbon precipitates. This is why, IMO, it's better to not quench after heating. The quenching stops the precipitation, by quickly dropping the temperature of the material below the 800° threshold, where we want the carbide precipitation to occur.
For our purpose, we actually want this carbide precipitation to occur. As I understand it, this precipitated carbon is what provides the insulation layer on the mesh. As a side note, this is why L grade stainless is harder to oxidize than the non L grade. The L indicates Low Carbon. For example: 316L contains half the carbon content of regular 316. 304L contains half the carbon content of regular 304, etc. It's harder to oxidize because the metal only contains half the available carbon to begin with.
Now, I admittedly don't know anything about the Cr issues. But my feeling is that as long as we are oxidizing properly, by staying within the 800°F-1400°F range, and not over heating, stainless steel mesh is a safe material, for our purpose.
As far as ceramic, which I know nothing about: Why are some folks assuming that it's safe? Just because it's not stainless? Has anybody looked into the material? Are there binders involved that hold the ceramic together? It seems to me that rushing to a different material, just because it isn't the previously used material, without investigating the new material, is premature.
When you think about it, many of the ingredients and materials that we put together and use for vaping, are materials and ingredients that were never intended for creating steam, and inhaling into our lungs. The flavorings we use in juice, whether DIY or pre made, were intended for food, not for vaporizing. The batteries we use were never intended for the abuse we put them through sometimes. Stainless steel was created as a non corrosive material; not to be deliberately corroded, as we are doing. Every time we vape, we are using a material for something other than for which it was originally intended.
 

j4mmin42

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The mesh is glowing red? From the coil?? I can't imagine the coil could ever get the mesh hot enough to have it glow red. The coil does for sure.

Oh yeah, the mesh does definitely glow red during dry-burns, especially if it's either a thinner wick, or lots of wraps/surface area coverage/low resistance wire.
 

foggybottom

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Bear in mind that I'm not a metallurgist. I'm just an old welder, with experience in working with various grades of stainless steel. What I say may be subject to correction.
All stainless steel contains carbon, in various percentages, depending on the grade. When stainless steel is heated, the carbon in the metal begins to precipitate toward the surface. In most applications, aside from our purposes, this is something fabricators wish to avoid, because this carbide precipitation has a detrimental affect on the integrity of the stainless. This is why stainless steel, when improperly fabricated, will actually develop rust, in areas adjacent to welds which have been done without proper technique/procedure. It's due to the carbon, which has precipitated to the surface. The most critical temperature range at which this happens is between 800°F and 1400°F. The longer the metal remains within this range, the more of the carbon precipitates. This is why, IMO, it's better to not quench after heating. The quenching stops the precipitation, by quickly dropping the temperature of the material below the 800° threshold, where we want the carbide precipitation to occur.
For our purpose, we actually want this carbide precipitation to occur. As I understand it, this precipitated carbon is what provides the insulation layer on the mesh. As a side note, this is why L grade stainless is harder to oxidize than the non L grade. The L indicates Low Carbon. For example: 316L contains half the carbon content of regular 316. 304L contains half the carbon content of regular 304, etc. It's harder to oxidize because the metal only contains half the available carbon to begin with.
Now, I admittedly don't know anything about the Cr issues. But my feeling is that as long as we are oxidizing properly, by staying within the 800°F-1400°F range, and not over heating, stainless steel mesh is a safe material, for our purpose.
As far as ceramic, which I know nothing about: Why are some folks assuming that it's safe? Just because it's not stainless? Has anybody looked into the material? Are there binders involved that hold the ceramic together? It seems to me that rushing to a different material, just because it isn't the previously used material, without investigating the new material, is premature.
When you think about it, many of the ingredients and materials that we put together and use for vaping, are materials and ingredients that were never intended for creating steam, and inhaling into our lungs. The flavorings we use in juice, whether DIY or pre made, were intended for food, not for vaporizing. The batteries we use were never intended for the abuse we put them through sometimes. Stainless steel was created as a non corrosive material; not to be deliberately corroded, as we are doing. Every time we vape, we are using a material for something other than for which it was originally intended.

Thanks. Bear in mind that I am neither a metallurgist nor a welder, I just read a lot, so what I say will be corrected. If my tone should ever come across as challenging, it is not meant to be, because I have no answers, just questions. Actually one: what exactly is insulating a torched or otherwise heated ss mesh wick? (I prefer to not use the term "oxidize", because if it the carbides that insulate, oxidizing is not actually what we are trying to achieve). Here are the candidates that I know of on the surface of a heat treated ss wick:

Chromium oxides (the passivation layer): we can rule these out, right? because otherwise native SS wouldn't be conductive, but it is.

Chromium carbides (carbide precipitation): if this is the insulating layer, then as you say, to maximize it we should be putting our wicks in a kiln at say 1000 F for as long as we can afford the electric bill, provided it doesn't lead to the eventual formation of Cr6 as well.

Iron oxides (corrosion, rust): I think I understand that this forms when chromium carbide precipitation robs the chromium from the passivation layer, thus exposing iron to oxidation, and I think that iron oxide is not electrically conductive, but if that is what is insulating, we should all be vaping rust colored juice, the rustier the better.

Martensite transformation: carbon atoms don't have time to migrate out of a rapidly cooling iron lattice, thus disrupting its crystalline structure, and maybe its ability to conduct electricity? If that is the case then we should be quenching.

I agree with you about the ceramic wick bandwagon, especially when you think that many people abandoned glass fiber wicks fearing that they might be linked to silicosis (they are not because the silica in glass fiber is amorphous, not crystalline, and it is the latter that causes silicosis and cancer), whereas ceramic does contain crystalline silica, albeit bound up. But it is porous and fragile, isn't it!
 

Rule62

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Thanks. Bear in mind that I am neither a metallurgist nor a welder, I just read a lot, so what I say will be corrected. If my tone should ever come across as challenging, it is not meant to be, because I have no answers, just questions. Actually one: what exactly is insulating a torched or otherwise heated ss mesh wick? (I prefer to not use the term "oxidize", because if it the carbides that insulate, oxidizing is not actually what we are trying to achieve). Here are the candidates that I know of on the surface of a heat treated ss wick:

Chromium oxides (the passivation layer): we can rule these out, right? because otherwise native SS wouldn't be conductive, but it is.

Chromium carbides (carbide precipitation): if this is the insulating layer, then as you say, to maximize it we should be putting our wicks in a kiln at say 1000 F for as long as we can afford the electric bill, provided it doesn't lead to the eventual formation of Cr6 as well.

Iron oxides (corrosion, rust): I think I understand that this forms when chromium carbide precipitation robs the chromium from the passivation layer, thus exposing iron to oxidation, and I think that iron oxide is not electrically conductive, but if that is what is insulating, we should all be vaping rust colored juice, the rustier the better.

Martensite transformation: carbon atoms don't have time to migrate out of a rapidly cooling iron lattice, thus disrupting its crystalline structure, and maybe its ability to conduct electricity? If that is the case then we should be quenching.

I agree with you about the ceramic wick bandwagon, especially when you think that many people abandoned glass fiber wicks fearing that they might be linked to silicosis (they are not because the silica in glass fiber is amorphous, not crystalline, and it is the latter that causes silicosis and cancer), whereas ceramic does contain crystalline silica, albeit bound up. But it is porous and fragile, isn't it!

Interesting questions, which I don't know the answers to. I do know that quenching and not quenching both seem to work, insulation wise.
 

vapdivrr

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whether ss mesh, or ceramic, i personally dont get involved with any of the hype about possible dangers of either, (keyword possible) for i believe that both are much more safe then cigarettes. for me personally, i just want to find one with great flavor, and so far ceramic is winning the battle. maybe i would pay more attension if i was 17 and just starting out with vaping, but unfortunately i am not. i am almost 50, and am probably wont be vaping that long. i quit cigarettes and this is just a transition to becoming totally free. i do believe that when transitioning from cigs to vapor, it now will be much easier to quit 100 percent. but for now i am enjoying vaping alot. also would like to add that i do think this kind of debate over possibilities of health concerns is good, health concerns are very important and should be considered, for the safe future of these devices is paramount.
 
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StaircaseWit

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On the topic of this thread, alternatives:

I drilled out the wick hole on my AGA-T2 to 1/8", and removed the second "ground post" and also drilled that out to 1/8", allowing me to run a U-wick without having to pass over the center post to the "fill hole".

I ordered 1mm natural hemp twine, on the suggestion of a thread in the Atomizer Mods forum.
I boiled the twine for 20 minutes twice, with a water change and thorough rinsing in between, and a thorough distilled water rinse after.

I did a wicking test with a piece of the twine which had been slightly "fluffed up" (separating the strands) at the end. It wicks *very* well, pulling juice along its length at a nice pace.

I roughly gauged the length I'd need to create the U-wick and wrapped (outside the RBA) a 3/4 coil of 32ga Kanthal using a straightened paperclip as support. I used three pieces of the 1mm hemp twine. The coil measures out at 1.8ohms.

I inserted the whole assembly into the AGA, creating a U-wick with the two drilled-out holes, and connected the coil. It has to sit to one side or the other due to the design of the AGA with the ground screw on one side and the center post representing positive.

Since there's no practical way to do a dry-burn with a natural fiber like hemp, I took a chance and filled the tank about 2/3 full. I carefully watched the wick for juice saturation. Juice had reached the top of the hemp U-wick within two minutes, and it was fully saturated within five minutes. I dripped a bit of juice directly on the coil for fear of burning it for the first test-fire.

Bumped the Provari down to 3.3V (the lowest on my V1 Provari) and gave it a fire. Nice vapor production, with no apparent hotspots. I pulsed it for a bit and all looked good. I took it into a dark room and pulsed looking for hot coil, but there are none at all.

I've been vaping on it for the last hour, slowly raising voltage. I'm at 3.8V now and blowing nice clouds of vapor. I'm getting none of the "woody" or "earthy" taste-tones that people mention with hemp -- I think it's wicking so well with the U-wick that I'm avoiding any scorching. (I have to admit that the flavor juice I'm using is rather strong; it's a juice I don't particularly like and was using in case I have to dump the whole thing.) The hemp looks clean so far under the coil.

There's really no need, as far as I can tell, to tilt the device with this wick. I vape it upright and take off the cap and the wick is simply saturated. If I squeeze it it's literally soaked with juice.

I've seen people make vertical hemp wicks for Genesis-style RBAs and struggle with wicking and require heavy tilting, which is why I thought I'd attempt the U-wick.

So far, this seems like a brilliant option. I'll report any difficulties, but this seems like a winner and only took about 10 minutes to set up.
 
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vapdivrr

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On the topic of this thread, alternatives:

I drilled out the wick hole on my AGA-T2 to 1/8", and removed the second "ground post" and also drilled that out to 1/8", allowing me to run a U-wick without having to pass over the center post to the "fill hole".

I ordered 1mm natural hemp twine, on the suggestion of a thread in the Atomizer Mods forum.
I boiled the twine for 20 minutes twice, with a water change and thorough rinsing in between, and a thorough distilled water rinse after.

I did a wicking test with a piece of the twine which had been slightly "fluffed up" (separating the strands) at the end. It wicks *very* well, pulling juice along its length at a nice pace.

I roughly gauged the length I'd need to create the U-wick and wrapped (outside the RBA) a 3/4 coil of 32ga Kanthal using a straightened paperclip as support. I used three pieces of the 1mm hemp twine. The coil measures out at 1.8ohms.

I inserted the whole assembly into the AGA, creating a U-wick with the two drilled-out holes, and connected the coil. It has to sit to one side or the other due to the design of the AGA with the ground screw on one side and the center post representing positive.

Since there's no practical way to do a dry-burn with a natural fiber like hemp, I took a chance and filled the tank about 2/3 full. I carefully watched the wick for juice saturation. Juice had reached the top of the hemp U-wick within two minutes, and it was fully saturated within five minutes. I dripped a bit of juice directly on the coil for fear of burning it for the first test-fire.

Bumped the Provari down to 3.3V (the lowest on my V1 Provari) and gave it a fire. Nice vapor production, with no apparent hotspots. I pulsed it for a bit and all looked good. I took it into a dark room and pulsed looking for hot coil, but there is none at all.

I've been vaping on it for the last hour, slowly raising voltage. I'm at 3.8V now and blowing nice clouds of vapor. I'm getting none of the "woody" or "earthy" taste-tones that people mention with hemp -- I think it's wicking so well with the U-wick that I'm avoiding any scorching. (I have to admit that the flavor juice I'm using is rather strong; it's a juice I don't particularly like and was using in case I have to dump the whole thing.) The hemp looks clean so far under the coil.

There's really no need, as far as I can tell, to tilt the device with this wick. I vape it upright and take off the cap and the wick is simply saturated. If I squeeze it it's literally soaked with juice.

I've seen people make vertical hemp wicks for Genesis-style RBAs and struggle with wicking and require heavy tilting, which is why I thought I'd attempt the U-wick.

So far, this seems like a brilliant option. I'll report any difficulties, but this seems like a winner and only took about 10 minutes to set up.

pretty awesome alternative, look forward on results in a few days time.
 

Boden

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Stuff about hemp wicks :)

I've been using organic unbleached free-range cotton yarn ;) for about 3 months in my vivi novas and Phoenix dripping RBA atomizers. You will know very quickly if you scorch a natural fiber wick by the burnt popcorn taste. It goes away after about a day of letting it sit or you can just change the wick. I think the magic heat range is under 7W. If you're a high Watt vaper, natural fiber is not for you
 

StaircaseWit

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I've been using organic unbleached free-range cotton yarn ;) for about 3 months in my vivi novas and Phoenix dripping RBA atomizers. You will know very quickly if you scorch a natural fiber wick by the burnt popcorn taste. It goes away after about a day of letting it sit or you can just change the wick. I think the magic heat range is under 7W. If you're a high Watt vaper, natural fiber is not for you

Sorry for my long rambling post. I was trying to avoid "but how did you do it?" responses that clutter the thread. :)

Hemp is reportedly a lot more scorch-resistant than cotton, which is why I wanted to try it. I've used cotton wicks and I know well what you mean. I tend to vape in the 8W range, so we'll see how it goes. I'm up to 3.9V at 1.8ohms now (8.45 watts) and doing fine so far. I'm very happy with the vape and probably won't go above 4.1V (9 watts).

I'm not a 22-watt vaper and never have been, so hopefully it'll work out well.

The thing that makes me hopeful is the lack of wait time for a top-coil atomizer like the AGA. Many suggest a 24-hour soak with cotton to allow full wicking. I waited five minutes with the hemp and it's going strong.
 
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fraghole

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On the topic of this thread, alternatives:

I drilled out the wick hole on my AGA-T2 to 1/8", and removed the second "ground post" and also drilled that out to 1/8", allowing me to run a U-wick without having to pass over the center post to the "fill hole".

I ordered 1mm natural hemp twine, on the suggestion of a thread in the Atomizer Mods forum.
I boiled the twine for 20 minutes twice, with a water change and thorough rinsing in between, and a thorough distilled water rinse after.

I did a wicking test with a piece of the twine which had been slightly "fluffed up" (separating the strands) at the end. It wicks *very* well, pulling juice along its length at a nice pace.

I roughly gauged the length I'd need to create the U-wick and wrapped (outside the RBA) a 3/4 coil of 32ga Kanthal using a straightened paperclip as support. I used three pieces of the 1mm hemp twine. The coil measures out at 1.8ohms.

I inserted the whole assembly into the AGA, creating a U-wick with the two drilled-out holes, and connected the coil. It has to sit to one side or the other due to the design of the AGA with the ground screw on one side and the center post representing positive.

Since there's no practical way to do a dry-burn with a natural fiber like hemp, I took a chance and filled the tank about 2/3 full. I carefully watched the wick for juice saturation. Juice had reached the top of the hemp U-wick within two minutes, and it was fully saturated within five minutes. I dripped a bit of juice directly on the coil for fear of burning it for the first test-fire.

Bumped the Provari down to 3.3V (the lowest on my V1 Provari) and gave it a fire. Nice vapor production, with no apparent hotspots. I pulsed it for a bit and all looked good. I took it into a dark room and pulsed looking for hot coil, but there are none at all.

I've been vaping on it for the last hour, slowly raising voltage. I'm at 3.8V now and blowing nice clouds of vapor. I'm getting none of the "woody" or "earthy" taste-tones that people mention with hemp -- I think it's wicking so well with the U-wick that I'm avoiding any scorching. (I have to admit that the flavor juice I'm using is rather strong; it's a juice I don't particularly like and was using in case I have to dump the whole thing.) The hemp looks clean so far under the coil.

There's really no need, as far as I can tell, to tilt the device with this wick. I vape it upright and take off the cap and the wick is simply saturated. If I squeeze it it's literally soaked with juice.

I've seen people make vertical hemp wicks for Genesis-style RBAs and struggle with wicking and require heavy tilting, which is why I thought I'd attempt the U-wick.

So far, this seems like a brilliant option. I'll report any difficulties, but this seems like a winner and only took about 10 minutes to set up.

Can we have some pics please?
 

Boden

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I'm trying glass fused glass (silica) :D

DSCF4507.jpg
 
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StaircaseWit

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Can we have some pics please?

I'm off to dinner now, and out for the night. I'll try to get some up tomorrow.

So far the vape is only getting better. Got a brief E1 error on the Provari, but forgot I left the positive coil wire loose and it touched ground (d'oh!). Fixed that and it rocks on.

I'll probably re-build it tomorrow because I want my coil more upright than it is now (it leans over with the U-wick), so I'll be sure to take pictures then.
 
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