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On that basis, you should take yours, throw it over a high flame, and sit there inhaling the hot fumes all day long.
So glad that people like you are part of the forum, your input has been so valuable to us all.
On that basis, you should take yours, throw it over a high flame, and sit there inhaling the hot fumes all day long.
So glad that people like you are part of the forum, your input has been so valuable to us all.
What, it makes perfect sense. You cook with it, heat it up, and its in contact with your food. When you stir your spaghetti you grind against it. I think the notion that we are ingesting chromium vaping with an oxidized steel wick is preposterous. And if it were the case, then obviously anything we heat up that is SS is a potential hazard.
Pasta doesn't reach 1500 degrees. SS cookware never oxidizes, at least that badly, on the inside... and let's just say that it does (even though it definitely, 100% does not)- EATING something is not anywhere remotely close to inhaling something. Our lungs are some of the most defenseless, sensitive tissue in our bodies.
In some parts of this conversation, I can just hear the responses out there...
"Derr, I shur carnt see nuffin wrong with dat dar SS meysh...leyt's light it on faaar an' smoke eyt!! Derrrr"
In some parts of this conversation, I can just hear the responses out there...
"Derr, I shur carnt see nuffin wrong with dat dar SS meysh...leyt's light it on faaar an' smoke eyt!! Derrrr"
Ingestion is ingestion, and thats what the discussions levels relate to. Beyond that, our atties are not reaching 1500+ degrees either. I enjoy that you are insulting me, clearly logic makes you angry
So if .02 ppb is okay to ingest, you think that the same threshold is ok to inhale?
Our SS mesh wicks ARE heated up to 1500 degrees, building a layer of oxide on them to partially insulate them. What is that oxide composed of?
You're gonna need some better logic to poke any holes in this.
Our SS mesh wicks ARE heated up to 1500 degrees, building a layer of oxide on them to partially insulate them. What is that oxide composed of?
You're gonna need some better logic to poke any holes in this.
volume control:8626625 said:On that basis, you should take yours, throw it over a high flame, and sit there inhaling the hot fumes all day long.
So glad that people like you are part of the forum, your input has been so valuable to us all.
What, it makes perfect sense. You cook with it, heat it up, and its in contact with your food. When you stir your spaghetti you grind against it. I think the notion that we are ingesting chromium vaping with an oxidized steel wick is preposterous. And if it were the case, then obviously anything we heat up that is SS is a potential hazard.
Actually, ss cookware does impart chromium to your food. That has been tested and proven. But not Cr6. Additionally, Cr6 is converted to less harmful oxides when ingested. I believe to a degree when inhaled a well, but not as effectively. Inhalation of Cr6 is the mode by which it causes cancer.
I'll be interested in seeing the results of whatever testing is being done. However, I'm not ready to toss all of my ss mesh just yet, and going back to soft wicks, ceramics, etc. The trend today seems to be toward minimizing wick oxidation, or not oxidizing at all, except for whatever amount the coil itself imparts, in the case of non oxidized wicks. Not many people seem to be burning the crap out of their wicks anymore; not because of health concerns; but because it hinders performance.
My experience with stainless steel has been that the more it is heated to plastic state(red), and the longer it stays in that plastic state, the more degraded it becomes. Eventually, it ceases to be stainless. The carbon, which is present in all stainless steel, precipitates to the surface. This is why oxidation works. It's the phenomenon of "carbide precipitation". How do I know this? It's not recent knowledge, as a result of vaping, or building RBAs. It's from over 35 years of working as a welder, much of that time having been spent welding, cutting, and fabricating stainless steel piping systems. In that time, I've been exposed to every contaminant stainless steel could ever emit. Whatever harmful effects stainless steel could have on a human being would have already happened, to me. So far, they haven't.
But, by all means, I can understand the need to be proactive, in dealing with health. We find out things all the time which were either previously unknown, or kept from the general public. If anyone is uncomfortable using something like stainless steel mesh, by all means, don't use it. Just make sure you aren't substituting yet another material that poses greater risk.
Nobody ever said vaping was risk free, or completely safe. If anybody ever did, it was foolhardy. Vaping is saf-ER than traditional smoking. Much of the medical community agrees with this. The saf-EST alternative is to do neither.
My experience with stainless steel has been that the more it is heated to plastic state(red), and the longer it stays in that plastic state, the more degraded it becomes. Eventually, it ceases to be stainless. The carbon, which is present in all stainless steel, precipitates to the surface. This is why oxidation works. It's the phenomenon of "carbide precipitation". How do I know this? It's not recent knowledge, as a result of vaping, or building RBAs. It's from over 35 years of working as a welder, much of that time having been spent welding, cutting, and fabricating stainless steel piping systems. In that time, I've been exposed to every contaminant stainless steel could ever emit. Whatever harmful effects stainless steel could have on a human being would have already happened, to me. So far, they haven't.
But, by all means, I can understand the need to be proactive, in dealing with health. We find out things all the time which were either previously unknown, or kept from the general public. If anyone is uncomfortable using something like stainless steel mesh, by all means, don't use it. Just make sure you aren't substituting yet another material that poses greater risk.
Nobody ever said vaping was risk free, or completely safe. If anybody ever did, it was foolhardy. Vaping is saf-ER than traditional smoking. Much of the medical community agrees with this. The saf-EST alternative is to do neither.
Good comment.
I have gone to juice burns only. Hoping that is below the threshold. When I started using SS wicks, I would torch them red. That is what the videos show and seemed to be the consensus on how to do it. It certainly made it easier. But not torching is possible if you are patient.
To oxidize being the key point here. They are not heated to that point while vaping. This is why its important to oxidize a wick prior to use. Chromium exposure is notated with symptoms such as headache, nausea, and sore throat. I believe we would have a lot of cases of those switching or using SS wick complaining of these problems if there was a situation of overexposure.
And to further my other note, if stainless cookware gave off chromium, who is to say its not also coming off in the steam, which you would likely inhale? Electric ranges glow red hot, wouldnt they also be a threat? Im not trying to "poke holes", im trying to figure out why the sudden huge amount of concern over this, and no concern over unrelated situations that involve the heating of SS that we have been using in life for 100+ years
I totally agree with you on ALL of that. I dont think any of us, at this point, are out there to change people's minds...Personally, I just want to research some things that might be better alternatives. If test results come out that would compromise the reputation of SS, then I would consider using my blog and other resources to get the word out. But at this point, I'm only taking personal steps, getting rid of my own SS and such. At the same time, I'm not going to sit by and watch people go around comparing apples to firetrucks, and saying because they're both red that they MUST both be safe. Fallacies are more dangerous than inconclusive evidence.
Even with only the knowledge we have right now, I would choose silica over SS. But I have my reasons, and everyone's opinion will be different on this- at least until more research appears. I guess we'll see.
So none of my alternative wick materials arrived today, looks like another night spent with carto's...silica in genesis systens doesn't work :/
The point is the oxidation is there on the coils and the mesh, at high levels, before you even start vaping. Any dry-burning increases the amount that's there.
Maybe there needs to be two threads: one that's, like, "SS mesh isn't bad for you, it's like cookware!" , and this one.
Maybe there needs to be two threads: one that's, like, "SS mesh isn't bad for you, it's like cookware!" , and this one.
It probably is coming off in steam, I think I read that as well but I wasn't concerned becuase the temperature for forming the harmful oxides are not present.
I think stainless steel can be safe. I don't know for a fact that the temps we use to oxidize a wick approach the temps necessary for Cr6 formation. It is hard to find facts as to when it begins to form. I have looked. I suspect 1300F based on what I have been able to find. I can't guarantee that it isn't forming at 700F. I suspect it is different depending on the alloy.
I don't think Ninja's is necessarily correct that we are heating to 1500f by torching. That seem awful high. But, given that we don't have to torch the wick, why take that chance.
Is there a reason why the chromium imparted from cookware is not cr6 and SS mesh would be? Is it the heat levels or the direct contact with the heating element? I take it this would obviously mean that an SS atty itself would be ok since it is not really heating up as much as say the wick or coil (lots of heating element wire also contains chromium, but from what im reading the oxidization of kanthal is a safer material than nichrome.
But to be fair, I don't think you know what oxide is there, you don't know at what temp CR6 forms, and you don't know what temp wicks are being heated to, and you don't know if Cr6 is present, if it can be disolved or vaporized when we vape.
It is heat level. What level? I don't know. When melted it definitely is there. I would think that at normal cooking levels it isn't or we would know that and be warned about using SS at temp levels above x degrees. Also, earlier on one of these threads I posted about stainless lined ovens that go up over 1300F. I suspect they wouldn't exist if they gassed CR6.
From wiki: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighter):
Specialized "windproof" butane lighters are manufactured for demanding conditions such as shipboard, high altitude, and wet climates. Some dedicated models double as synthetic rope cutters. Such lighters are often far hotter than normal lighters (those that use a "soft flame") and can burn in excess of 1100 °C. Contrary to common misconception, the windproof capabilities are not achieved from "higher pressure" fuel. Windproof lighters use the same fuel (butane) as standard lighters, and therefore develop the same vapour pressure. The difference is that windproof lighters mix the fuel with air, and may also pass the butane/air mixture through a catalytic coil. An electric spark starts the initial flame, and soon after the coil is hot enough to sustain a catalytic reaction and cause the fuel/air mixture to burn on contact. In essence, the flame is constantly reignited by the coil.[citation needed]
-and this is just the cheap, gas-station torch lighters, not the higher-power chefs toches/MAPP torches etc.
Specialized "windproof" butane lighters are manufactured for demanding conditions such as shipboard, high altitude, and wet climates. Some dedicated models double as synthetic rope cutters. Such lighters are often far hotter than normal lighters (those that use a "soft flame") and can burn in excess of 1100 °C. Contrary to common misconception, the windproof capabilities are not achieved from "higher pressure" fuel. Windproof lighters use the same fuel (butane) as standard lighters, and therefore develop the same vapour pressure. The difference is that windproof lighters mix the fuel with air, and may also pass the butane/air mixture through a catalytic coil. An electric spark starts the initial flame, and soon after the coil is hot enough to sustain a catalytic reaction and cause the fuel/air mixture to burn on contact. In essence, the flame is constantly reignited by the coil.[citation needed]
-and this is just the cheap, gas-station torch lighters, not the higher-power chefs toches/MAPP torches etc.
We DO have preliminary evidence suggesting that CRVI is present on most of our wicks, in reasonably high amounts. If there was no evidence, I wouldn't be here wasting my time on this subject.
The other thread has more details of this, there was at least one round of lab tests done, and another in the works.
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