Likes/Dislikes Nivel vs DNA20D

[mamu]

I know there's modders, and vapers, that are up in the air (read: confused ) on which to choose to mod with, and which to choose to vape with.

After modding with, and vaping with, both the Nivel and the DNA20D I have likes/dislikes between the two that I thought I would share.

Modding:
Nivel - it comes pre-wired with only a fire button required as an external component (adding an LED is optional). The LCD is easy to mount and secure in the case. The only dislike about modding with the Nivel is that the LCD is not centered on the board, which makes for a bit of finagling when trying to center the LCD in the case.

DNA20D - it's not a difficult board to mod with, but there are quirks with it. It doesn't come pre-wired like the Nivel and requires more external components in addition to the fire button (specifically up/down watts buttons or POT). If I had my preference, the up/down watts feature would be built into the fire button like the 5x clicks on/off feature. The most obvious bugaboo with the DNA20D is the short, dangling cable attached to a piece of glass on one end and to the board on the other end. Most modders have lost a screen or two (or more ) because of the screen breaking or the cable breaking away from the board so not only a frustration/stress factor, but also the expense adds up to replace the whole thing, rather than just the OLED/cable if you want the display. It would be much much better to have a detachable cable/OLED to secure in the case, then attach the board to the cable.

Onboard Protection:
Nivel has full onboard protection whereas the DNA20D has onboard protection, but does not have reverse polarity protection. None of Evolv's products have reverse polarity protection which I feel is a major oversight or failure to consider the importance of it. Not a factor with modders and users who build and have mods with internal batteries, but a HUGE concern for modders and users that have user replaceable batteries. Putting the battery in backwards will immediately fry the DNA20D board and it will then need to be replaced. Not only that, but the battery will get hot hot hot really fast due to the release of current. Not a major concern with protected batteries, but is a major concern with IMR batteries.

User Interface:
Huge like - DNA20D. The all-in-one display is absolutely great! Easy readability of the battery charge level, ohms, volts, and watts without having to access a menu system to see the data is a major plus.

Nivel - has a learning curve with how to use the menu system/standby mode/operating mode to access data or change vaping preference and can be confusing/frustrating for the user until they learn the ins and outs of it.

Capability/Specs:
Nivel - vv (3.0 - 6.0 volts) or vw (3 watts - 15 watts) option with 3.5A max current capability. Downside: for me being a high watts vaper the 15 watts is in my vaping range, but notice a bit of sag at that load. Upside: those who vape very low to low to mid watts (up to about 14 watts) will have a stable, consistent, reliable hit.

DNA20D - vw option only with a range of 7 watts - 20 watts with 6A max current capability. Upside: absolutely no glitches in load when vaping at higher watts. The 20 watts max and 6A cushion make for a stable, reliable, consistent hit when vaping high watts. Downside: those who want lower watts, lower than 7 watts, will not be able to vape with the DNA20D. Also, when vaping at 7 watts with low ohm resistance, the DNA20D kicks into unregulated mode (will see a flashing ohms reading). So the DNA20D is suitable for low to mid to high watts vapers, but not the very low watts vapers.

Features:
Nivel - Operating Mode: displays battery charge level and has easy access to change power/volts. Menu mode (each feature accessed by a specific number of clicks of the fire button): access/change voltage vs power regulation, timer that displays actual vape time plus allows you to document when the battery is near the end of its life when actual vape time starts to decrease from a full charge, adjust brightness for the LCD, turn on/off the LCD and/or LED, displays resistance of the atty/carto, intake timer, firmware.

DNA20D - locked mode (5x clicks of the fire button turns off to firing the atty/carto and off to changing the watts level), normal/stealth mode (turns on/off the display), left/right mode (flips the screen 180 degrees).

Quirks:
Nivel - when getting an error message, it immediately kicks you into menu mode.

DNA20D - the display remains on when not pressing the fire button. Although it dims then blanks out over time, I would prefer that the display is on when pressing the fire button and immediately off and remains off when not pressing the fire button.

DNA20D - always on (only off to firing the atty/carto and changing watts level when in the locked mode) - because it's always on, it draws current from the battery. After a few days to a week of not using your mod you will have a totally drained battery - even if you have it in locked mode. For this reason, it would be better to have the master on/off feature with the 5x clicks of the fire button.

DNA20D - when power disconnect (or changing out the battery), the preset watts changes - usually ups 0.1 watts or so.

Summary:
I like both the Nivel and DNA20D - it's an awesome time to be a modder with these boards available to us and also as a vaper to vape with consistent reliable regulated vaping.

Which do I prefer? As a modder - the Nivel due to the ease of working with it, less external components, and ease of mounting it in a case. As a user - the DNA20D due to the high watts capability with max amps cushion and the easy user interface.

 

[breaktru]

Excellent write up mamu. Bravo
I only disagree with a couple of minor points. Plus my personal preference would be the DNA20 for modding and use. I find the Nivel totally annoying.

 

[bapgood]

I have never used the Nivel, mainly for a single reason, and you think it is a plus. The single button, oh how I despise thee!!! But with the DNA and all the info on the screen, it might not be that bad if you were only going in to adjust wattage.

As far as the rest of the DNA20 info goes, I think it was spot on!!!

Just as a side note, as you kind of eluded to it. Unregulated mode - I have been tinkering with some sub ohm setups and mech mods, and then the PBusardo review came out on the OpusD. So I have been doing a little testing with the DNA20 and sub ohm coils, and I can say I have tested down to 0.6 ohm setups and it works great. To great in most cases, and that is because the DNA20 in unregulated mode can pass battery voltage much more efficiently than a mech mod, so there is less voltage drop to the coil. Below is some comparison numbers I got the other day, I still need to get in and test some real batteries (Big C lipo's ).

* I will throw in the standard disclaimer......As with anything be safe! Use proper batteries and protection....etc....etc*

The same battery was used unless noted, the same RSST/0.7ohm/0.8mm ribbon kanthal coil/ceramic wick was used on all tests, the list is in the order as tested. Volts are under load, read from the positive post and negative screw.

Battery is a high drain AW IMR 18650.
Sigelei #19 is stock, with both magnets in mod, only my fix for the bottom.
Sigelei #20 is stock except for swapping in a hot spring. (Looks like I need to look at this guy and see what is going on)
CCTS is stock, haven't changed or sanded a thing.

Sigelei #20 - 3.25v
Sigelei #19 - 3.5v
CCTS - 3.45v
Sig 20 - 3.25v (wondered if I misread the first time)
DNA20 - 3.9v (full MNKE 26650)
DNA20 - 3.9v (the same 18650 used in previous tests)

 

[mamu]

...So I have been doing a little testing with the DNA20 and sub ohm coils, and I can say I have tested down to 0.6 ohm setups and it works great. To great in most cases, and that is because the DNA20 in unregulated mode can pass battery voltage much more efficiently than a mech mod, so there is less voltage drop to the coil...

I may be off-base with my thinking, but I think the primary problem with the DNA20D in unregulated mode is the voltage that is passed on may be higher than what it should be when vaping at a specific watts level, depending on the charge status of the battery, so the watts you are actually vaping at will not be what the preset watts is.

 

[bapgood]

I may be off-base with my thinking, but I think the primary problem with the DNA20D in unregulated mode is the voltage that is passed on may be higher than what it should be when vaping at a specific watts level, depending on the charge status of the battery, so the watts you are actually vaping at will not be what the preset watts is.

Yes you are correct....its unregulated until the battery voltage drops enough to start regulating per the wattage setting (assuming these users would set at 20 watts). I think most will find that a sub ohm coil on a DNA is quite different than a sub ohm coil on a mech and require them to possibly change their setup.

On the testing I did with 18650 and 26650 I set it at 20 watts and the first couple of cycles the ohm was flashing and then went solid and started regulating with a pretty close voltage under load.

I can say as of right now 20 watts isn't for me. I haven't found a setup that can keep up, especially a low ohm setup.

I have found that I can get a very similar vape with a little higher ohm coil at around 14-16 watts, best part it is consistent until the battery cutoff.

For me a nice vaping low ohm mech setup gets lit up and blown away on the DNA20. IMHO the DNA20 truly is a mech mod killer, and the best all around devise for me. I will go from a tanked carto at ~7.5 watts to a genesis setup at ~15 watts and love it with room to spare.

IMHO the super low ohm guys using IMR type batteries are creating such a high load that the voltage is not sustainable and getting a huge voltage drop. The batteries might handle it without venting but they are going to be short lived. But I also think that through pushing the battery to the ragged edge like they do they are getting that initial ramp up and then down effect, similar to what some have talked about wishing the electric devises could do to deal with lag or heatsink effect.

 

[dr g]

I have never used the Nivel, mainly for a single reason, and you think it is a plus. The single button, oh how I despise thee!!! But with the DNA and all the info on the screen, it might not be that bad if you were only going in to adjust wattage.

As far as the rest of the DNA20 info goes, I think it was spot on!!!

Just as a side note, as you kind of eluded to it. Unregulated mode - I have been tinkering with some sub ohm setups and mech mods, and then the PBusardo review came out on the OpusD. So I have been doing a little testing with the DNA20 and sub ohm coils, and I can say I have tested down to 0.6 ohm setups and it works great. To great in most cases, and that is because the DNA20 in unregulated mode can pass battery voltage much more efficiently than a mech mod, so there is less voltage drop to the coil. Below is some comparison numbers I got the other day, I still need to get in and test some real batteries (Big C lipo's ).

* I will throw in the standard disclaimer......As with anything be safe! Use proper batteries and protection....etc....etc*

The same battery was used unless noted, the same RSST/0.7ohm/0.8mm ribbon kanthal coil/ceramic wick was used on all tests, the list is in the order as tested. Volts are under load, read from the positive post and negative screw.

Battery is a high drain AW IMR 18650.
Sigelei #19 is stock, with both magnets in mod, only my fix for the bottom.
Sigelei #20 is stock except for swapping in a hot spring. (Looks like I need to look at this guy and see what is going on)
CCTS is stock, haven't changed or sanded a thing.

Sigelei #20 - 3.25v
Sigelei #19 - 3.5v
CCTS - 3.45v
Sig 20 - 3.25v (wondered if I misread the first time)
DNA20 - 3.9v (full MNKE 26650)
DNA20 - 3.9v (the same 18650 used in previous tests)

I'm trying to interpret these results ... but they don't really make sense. I'm not sure if I understand correctly. If there is a true pass through of power in the "unregulated" mode, wouldn't the results be the same? It seems like it is still boosting once you apply the load and the battery voltage drops, no?

 

[bapgood]

I'm trying to interpret these results ... but they don't really make sense. I'm not sure if I understand correctly. If there is a true pass through of power in the "unregulated" mode, wouldn't the results be the same? It seems like it is still boosting once you apply the load and the battery voltage drops, no?

These are mechanical mods - So no DNA, just straight battery
Sigelei #20 - 3.25v
Sigelei #19 - 3.5v
CCTS - 3.45v
Sig 20 - 3.25v (wondered if I misread the first time)

 

[bapgood]

I'm trying to interpret these results ... but they don't really make sense. I'm not sure if I understand correctly. If there is a true pass through of power in the "unregulated" mode, wouldn't the results be the same? It seems like it is still boosting once you apply the load and the battery voltage drops, no?

My example just happens to be right about at the transition point, so it might be a little unclear.

It doesn't matter if its a low ohm coil or not there will always be some voltage drop under load. So if your using a genesis atty its easy to see, just use your multimeter to probe at the coil connection points on the atty while firing the mod. The reading on the meter will be less than the DNA is showing that it is outputting.

The transition from unregulated to regulated will depend on the wattage set point.

 

[DrMA]

Excellent write-up!

I recently discovered the DNA quirk of it being always on and totally draining the battery after some time in storage. This is a significant safety issue, because LiPo's tend to become permanently damaged and unstable if overdischarged.

Safety Notice
If you've got a LiPo discharged below 3V (but higher than 2.5V), charge the battery with extreme caution in a fire-proof container and preferably outdoors. Have a pair of tongs and a bucket of sand or water close by, in case you need to dispose of a fiery mess. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst...

PS: LiPo's discharged below 2.5V are extremely dangerous and I would not recommend attempting to charge them. Dispose of these according to your local regulations.

 

[bapgood]

Excellent write-up!

I recently discovered the DNA quirk of it being always on and totally draining the battery after some time in storage. This is a significant safety issue, because LiPo's tend to become permanently damaged and unstable if overdischarged.

Safety Notice
If you've got a LiPo discharged below 3V (but higher than 2.5V), charge the battery with extreme caution in a fire-proof container and preferably outdoors. Have a pair of tongs and a bucket of sand or water close by, in case you need to dispose of a fiery mess. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst...

PS: LiPo's discharged below 2.5V are extremely dangerous and I would not recommend attempting to charge them. Dispose of these according to your local regulations.

Hmmm....It really never stops draining the battery?

How low did it drain the battery you had hooked up?

I just assumed it turned off/etc after a certain voltage....ahh I mean that is one of the reasons I have been using a removable fuse

 

[Moofaso]

very nice comparison review Mamu, thanks!

 

[dr g]

My example just happens to be right about at the transition point, so it might be a little unclear.

It doesn't matter if its a low ohm coil or not there will always be some voltage drop under load. So if your using a genesis atty its easy to see, just use your multimeter to probe at the coil connection points on the atty while firing the mod. The reading on the meter will be less than the DNA is showing that it is outputting.

The transition from unregulated to regulated will depend on the wattage set point.

Right but there's got to be something going on here to get different results with ostensibly "unregulated" power, no? I think being at the edge of the transition point may be key here. What wattage is the DNA20 set at? 20?

I mean if under this load batteries are going to sag down to 3.2-3.4 under normal circumstances, that puts it in a range where the boost should kick in right? In other words, while in a static situation the battery voltage may exceed 20w calculated with the .75ohm load, under load it's well below.

 

[dr g]

Excellent write-up!

I recently discovered the DNA quirk of it being always on and totally draining the battery after some time in storage. This is a significant safety issue, because LiPo's tend to become permanently damaged and unstable if overdischarged.

Safety Notice
If you've got a LiPo discharged below 3V (but higher than 2.5V), charge the battery with extreme caution in a fire-proof container and preferably outdoors. Have a pair of tongs and a bucket of sand or water close by, in case you need to dispose of a fiery mess. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst...

PS: LiPo's discharged below 2.5V are extremely dangerous and I would not recommend attempting to charge them. Dispose of these according to your local regulations.

This is significant, I emailed evolv to see what they say about this.

 

[DrMA]

My battery was at 3.2V after about a week of sitting in a drawer in locked mode. I'm not gonna experiment to see how low it can get though.

Removable fuse sounds like a great idea.

 

[breaktru]

The DNA20 uses a micro-controller. Micro-controllers have different levels of Sleep Modes and depending on the MCU have 2 to 5 levels. From milliamp power draw to microamp power draw. The problem with some Deep sleep power modes is wake up and this maybe the case with the DNA20 and why they chose the least power saving mode. Wake up from the deepest sleep mode can be a response time factor.

 

[bapgood]

The check battery warning doesn't come on until 3.1v so I'm not sure that is definitive yet. I also have an email in to Evolv so we will see what they say. I haven't had a situation to find out the hard way. If this is the case, then the next question will be if the DNA charger has a low voltage charge cutoff, if not then there could be some real potential issues. But I will wait to hear back from Evolv or someone who has tested these scenarios, before I get too worried. Just keep it charged and all is happy

My battery was at 3.2V after about a week of sitting in a drawer in locked mode. I'm not gonna experiment to see how low it can get though.

Removable fuse sounds like a great idea.

 

[bapgood]

Right but there's got to be something going on here to get different results with ostensibly "unregulated" power, no? I think being at the edge of the transition point may be key here. What wattage is the DNA20 set at? 20?

I mean if under this load batteries are going to sag down to 3.2-3.4 under normal circumstances, that puts it in a range where the boost should kick in right? In other words, while in a static situation the battery voltage may exceed 20w calculated with the .75ohm load, under load it's well below.

Voltage sag isn't typically that large, if so there is a problem somewhere. A fully charged 3.7v nominal battery used with the DNA (lipo, round cell, etc.) is 4.2v fully charged. So I wasn't surprised to see the voltage sag from 4.2v to 3.9v with the round cells. I have heard reports of 4.0v - 4.1v on a sub ohm setup using fully charged nano-tech lipo batteries (but I haven't got a chance to test for my self).

Remember my numbers were based on a couple of firing cycles with a fully charged battery, the voltage will continue to drop until the DNA starts regulating. As well as using a cheap multimeter.

 

[bapgood]

This just back from Evolv.

The DNA20D does have a hardware cut off which prevents the unit from over discharging your batteries and ruining them. The hardware cut off is 3v.

All is well in the world again

 

[whatsat]

I wonder if you have considered modding with the Zmax chip that is starting to become available Mamu? I just saw it last week on the madvapes site and it sold out before I could get one. Then on Monday they posted another 45. I was able to snag one and I just got shipping confirmation today. It seems closer to the Nivels stats but with a better price and lower risk if I fudge up than the DNA20. Now I am trying to figure out what kind of case and how to mount it when I get it.

ZMax Variable Volt PCB

 

[mamu]

No, I'm not really interested in modding with another board at this time, whatsat. As far as I know, there's no board currently out there that can beat the power performance (especially at higher watts) and stability that the DNA20D has. And I do prefer the OLED interface rather than a menu system. So I am pretty much only working with the DNA20D now, but do make an occasional Nivel mod.

From what I can tell, there are very little differences between the ZMax and Nivel. The ZMaz has a max output of 4A vs the 3.5A with the Nivel. vv and vw options are the same between the two. ZMax increments/decrements watts by 0.5, while the Nivel has tighter control over that up to 10 watts, then it increments/decrements by 0.5. The ZMaz has RMS and mean value voltage monitoring whereas the Nivel does not. The Nivel has the timer that tells actual vape time which also lets you know when the battery is nearing the end of its life (which I would love to see in the DNA20D) while the ZMax does not. The ZMaz has a 3-digit LCD while the Nivel has a 2-digit LCD.

I don't know about reliability and durability with the ZMax, but the Nivel so far has proven to be reliable and durable. Madvapes write-up doesn't tell what onboard protection is available with the ZMax, but the Nivel has full onboard protection which does give the modder and user a comfort/safety zone. I think the biggest difference is the price difference. The Nivel is $67 and the ZMax is $20. wowza!!