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But I got a gallon from them at a good price. So good on them for not price gouging.
Looking at getting a gallon of VG
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But I got a gallon from them at a good price. So good on them for not price gouging.
I've used Bulk Apothecary for about 5 years now. I checked their price for PG and VG less than a month ago, and it was still at their same price as the last time I'd bought some.
Have you been getting their email newsletters? They've included info about being swamped with orders, shipping delays, trouble getting more workers, how their own cost for ingredients has gone up tremendously, about the air freight on components of their products from overseas going up to $100,000 per container load, etc.? I think they held out raising their prices as long as they possibly could and didn't raise them until they had no choice within the last 2-3 weeks.
Unlike ED, they didn't jump on the "price gouging" bandwagon long ago, from what I've seen when checking their prices. I really hope things ease up for BA sometime soon. I feel badly for them trying to meet the demands put on them. They've even gotten threats of bodily harm from some people demanding that their orders be moved to the front of the line as far as fulfillment.
You're probably right. I've decided I'm going to take half of my PG and VG and store it in the freezer now in glass. I don't trust plastic for longer term storage even if it is "food-safe" plastic. I should have enough room left in my freezer for 1 gallon each of PG and VG.
When I saw other companies raising prices on VG, I panicked and bought too much PG and VG than I can use in a year from heartland. I think putting some in a freezer in glass jars would make it last a good while. I hope so anyway.
I've been using their PG/VG for about the same time. I get their newsletters and saw that. And I feel bad for them too.
The threats though. People argh
.Kindness and understanding work. Patience too.
I'll still buy from them no matter how things shake out. They're a great company IMO.
We want to take a moment to let all of our customers fully understand some of the challenges we have experienced over the past 2 months to hopefully, give everyone a better understanding. We’ve been in business for 10 years and stand behind every order but the constraints placed on our business over the past couple of months have been more than any company of our size can handle without lengthy delays and less than optimal customer service. For context, it’s important to understand that we’re supplying hundreds of thousands of businesses that are begging us to continue selling products and do our best to communicate shipping lead times the best we can. With much of the nation ready to open back up in the coming weeks, many experts are projecting even larger shortages on certain PPE when this happens. Many businesses are scared that they won’t be able to reopen if they don’t have the necessary products to meet their state’s requirements and some are reporting shortages on hand sanitizer lasting through August. We aren’t taking that lightly and are shipping orders as quickly as possible. We have a warehouse full of inventory that we just can’t get shipped quickly enough. For us, small pack orders are the major constraint. We are shipping tens of thousands of units each day and just don’t have the labor to ship any faster. We are trying to communicate the ship times accurately but in many cases, this has been difficult to nail down. Employees are calling off at alarming rates, temp agencies are not able to supply us with our needs, we’ve tried to hire more employees but haven’t been able to find enough people, our carriers haven’t been able to consistently get us enough trucks for all of our small pack orders. On top of all that, we have truckloads of unanticipated UPS returns caused by businesses that were closed down after ordering that we need to reprocess.
We do realize that this is incredibly frustrating for customers. We have many consumers feel that we should stop selling until we can get our shipping times caught up but for most of our business customers, this is not an option. They need to be able to order sanitizer so that they can get their place in line to get their order shipped out as quickly as possible. The overwhelming majority of businesses that need gallons of hand sanitizer to reopen insist that they would prefer to buy the product and wait for us to ship it so that they don’t lose their place in line. Many states are actually mandating hand sanitizer is supplied to customers and employees before a business can reopen. This has caused global shortages of synthetic alcohol. As a result, the TTB and FDA have issued guidance for manufacturers to use plant-based ethanols in hand sanitizer. This creates a product that has a liquor smell that many customers don’t like. It’s important to note that this is a global issue and almost every hand sanitizer brand in the U.S has been forced to use this new “smelly” alcohol for at least some of their production. This has caused an even bigger spike in emails with questions.
We have some customers complaining about pricing but literally EVERY cost has gone through the roof. Our cost on gallon pumps is up 800%. The cost of alcohol is up 225%. The cost of labor is through the roof because we are paying all employees double time for all their overtime. Carbopol which is used to thicken sanitizer has been up as much as 700%. Airfreight for a containers of components from China has spiked to almost $100,000 per load. We have actually seen live auctions on alcohol and other chemicals. The uncertainty in the market has been overwhelming and just keeps getting worst.
Please understand that there is no right way to handle these problems. This is a global pandemic that is affecting supply, labor, trucking, and nearly every possible part of the supply chain. Elevated lead times and freight rates out of China are now causing retailers to source more domestic product which is putting even more strain on the supply chain. We’ve tried to increase the lead-time posted on our site but saw an increase in panic buying and sales actually went up each time we increased it. We tried to temporarily take the hand sanitizer off the site and we saw a flood of customers emailing in to be put on a waiting list. Other customers emailed, frantic that we ran out of inventory. The reason our phones are off is that we saw customers sending an email, live chat message, and phone call for the same issue. It literally tripled the touchpoints with customers and we were falling even further behind on our communication. It may be frustrating, but allowing emails only, allowed us to be more efficient so that we could get back to more customers in a timely fashion. We implore you, please be kind and understand that we are doing our very best. Most of our customers have been fantastic. They are patient and understand these are unprecedented times that we are working through to the best of our ability. We have other customers that are emailing every hour on the hour, which only adds to the problem. Other customers are emailing with threats of bodily harm if we don’t put their order to the front of the line or posting mean comments on social media. Please just keep in mind that our employees are people too. They have children at home that they are homeschooling while trying to answer as many emails as possible throughout the day. If you can not wait 2-4 weeks for your order to be shipped, PLEASE DO NOT ORDER. It’s been 2 months and demand has not lessened. When we get a little more caught up, we will email to let you know that our shipping times for small orders has gotten better.
We do realize that this is incredibly frustrating for customers. We have many consumers feel that we should stop selling until we can get our shipping times caught up but for most of our business customers, this is not an option. They need to be able to order sanitizer so that they can get their place in line to get their order shipped out as quickly as possible. The overwhelming majority of businesses that need gallons of hand sanitizer to reopen insist that they would prefer to buy the product and wait for us to ship it so that they don’t lose their place in line. Many states are actually mandating hand sanitizer is supplied to customers and employees before a business can reopen. This has caused global shortages of synthetic alcohol. As a result, the TTB and FDA have issued guidance for manufacturers to use plant-based ethanols in hand sanitizer. This creates a product that has a liquor smell that many customers don’t like. It’s important to note that this is a global issue and almost every hand sanitizer brand in the U.S has been forced to use this new “smelly” alcohol for at least some of their production. This has caused an even bigger spike in emails with questions.
We have some customers complaining about pricing but literally EVERY cost has gone through the roof. Our cost on gallon pumps is up 800%. The cost of alcohol is up 225%. The cost of labor is through the roof because we are paying all employees double time for all their overtime. Carbopol which is used to thicken sanitizer has been up as much as 700%. Airfreight for a containers of components from China has spiked to almost $100,000 per load. We have actually seen live auctions on alcohol and other chemicals. The uncertainty in the market has been overwhelming and just keeps getting worst.
Please understand that there is no right way to handle these problems. This is a global pandemic that is affecting supply, labor, trucking, and nearly every possible part of the supply chain. Elevated lead times and freight rates out of China are now causing retailers to source more domestic product which is putting even more strain on the supply chain. We’ve tried to increase the lead-time posted on our site but saw an increase in panic buying and sales actually went up each time we increased it. We tried to temporarily take the hand sanitizer off the site and we saw a flood of customers emailing in to be put on a waiting list. Other customers emailed, frantic that we ran out of inventory. The reason our phones are off is that we saw customers sending an email, live chat message, and phone call for the same issue. It literally tripled the touchpoints with customers and we were falling even further behind on our communication. It may be frustrating, but allowing emails only, allowed us to be more efficient so that we could get back to more customers in a timely fashion. We implore you, please be kind and understand that we are doing our very best. Most of our customers have been fantastic. They are patient and understand these are unprecedented times that we are working through to the best of our ability. We have other customers that are emailing every hour on the hour, which only adds to the problem. Other customers are emailing with threats of bodily harm if we don’t put their order to the front of the line or posting mean comments on social media. Please just keep in mind that our employees are people too. They have children at home that they are homeschooling while trying to answer as many emails as possible throughout the day. If you can not wait 2-4 weeks for your order to be shipped, PLEASE DO NOT ORDER. It’s been 2 months and demand has not lessened. When we get a little more caught up, we will email to let you know that our shipping times for small orders has gotten better.
I couldn't think of any better way to store things. There is virtually no plastic material in this world that is not going to leach into the liquid you store inside it. Food grade plastics are not the ones that are totally inert, but ones where leaching rate is below the levels accepted as safe. The higher temperature you store at, the higher the rate of leaching. As an example, antimony leaching from PET water bottles (Antimony is just ONE of the things that leach into the liquids stored):
Antimony leaching from polyethylene terephthalate (PET) plastic used for bottled drinking water - ScienceDirect
Freezing + glass are the way to go. You need to consider one thing though- if you take stuff straight from the freezer to mix, the density will be different compared to if you were mixing liquids at room temperature. So your online calculators will be less accurate, unless you mix by weight. Density changes with temperature, as well as other parameters, like viscosity. Here is a good and detailed one for PG, for example:
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_091b/0901b8038091b508.pdf?filepath=pro
I think the ones that are really goin to be significantly affected by the way you store them are: your nicotine solution and flavor concentrates. And all your ready liquids that contain both, if you mix in bulk.
Nicotine is UV sensitive, temperature sensitive, and degrades when exposed to air. I do not have any knowledge about specific components of flavourings but these are pretty complex, and I will risk saying that similar patterns apply.
Both are the most expensive components of liquids, so why waste your money if you can store them properly.
Nicotine is UV sensitive, temperature sensitive, and degrades when exposed to air. I do not have any knowledge about specific components of flavourings but these are pretty complex, and I will risk saying that similar patterns apply.
Both are the most expensive components of liquids, so why waste your money if you can store them properly.
Your comment is very important, and many people aren't aware about bacterial/fungal contamination of e liquids and their components. There are already studies that prove bacterial and fungal containation is a fact, and needs to be considered when storage and safety is concerned.
My personal (!) thoughts: To kill the bacteria and fungi, technically you could pasteurize your VG or PG for a short time. However, I have no idea how that would influence the degradation of both. Also- the bacteria and fungi already present produce toxins, and these, as far as I remember, require very high temperatures for them to break down, 300-400C? I can't remember off the top of my head- years ago I attended a presentation at a Danone factory where bacterial and fungal contamination was discussed in detail.
So even if you manage to kill everything that lives in your liquid, the toxins remain and you inhale them when you vape. Thus I think that correct storage is essential, to prevent the microbial growth in the first place. Opening a bottle of VG in the house would be sufficient to inoculate it with bacteria and fungi. And you would have to fully trust the manufacturer to believe that there aren't any inside when you first receive it, sealed. The results of test I've seen, done on sealed e liquids and sealed pods with juice inside, prove it highly unlikely.
I'm not sure about your method with ethanol at 2-4%, it sounds like a very low concentration. I've recently read a paper about ultrasound transmission gel about determining whether adding isopropyl alcohol to gel inhibits bacterial growth, and turned out it had no effect on contamination. At a much higher concentration than 2-4%. Scroll down to pages 7 and 8:
https://escholarship.org/content/qt01k3f7v2/qt01k3f7v2.pdf?t=pemwk3
IDK a lot of bacteria is totally harmless. I think it would be hard to grow Swine Flue in VG.
I will say I may find a refrigerated area for my next VG/PEG 400 supplies. Mine still looks and smells like they day I got it. I keep it pretty sanitary but it is getting rather elderly. I could look into that I guess.
Anna
I will say I may find a refrigerated area for my next VG/PEG 400 supplies. Mine still looks and smells like they day I got it. I keep it pretty sanitary but it is getting rather elderly. I could look into that I guess.
Anna
It doesn't have to be harmful pathenogenic bacteria or fungi (like mold)- it won't make you catch any disease, but many bacteria and fungi produce toxins and then you end up vaping them. These toxins are often carcinogenic, can cause asthma, allergies, or other health issues.
One thing for sure- fridge slows down microbial growth, and freezer practically stops it, so that's where my supplies and juices will always go. And both slow down leaching chemicals from plastic bottles, as well as degradation of different components of the juices.
I've always read, and been told by a few plastic products manufacturers, that HDPE, LDPE, and PP plastic containers do not leach plastic chemicals into their contents. That's why those types are used so widely in the medical field and for scientific laboratory purposes.
Have also been told and read that both PG & VG are antimicrobial products. It's supposedly fairly common that many medical institutions and nursing homes regularly circulate PG throughout their buildings via their A/C systems. But, I'm certainly not a scientist of any kind. So I can't personally prove that what I've seen in print and have been told are 100% accurate.
Have also been told and read that both PG & VG are antimicrobial products. It's supposedly fairly common that many medical institutions and nursing homes regularly circulate PG throughout their buildings via their A/C systems. But, I'm certainly not a scientist of any kind. So I can't personally prove that what I've seen in print and have been told are 100% accurate.
Hello. Please have a look:
7 Types of Plastic Wreaking Havoc on Our Health
Is High-density Polyethylene (HDPE) a Good Choice For Potable Water? - PPRC
That's fairly simple articles but I can provide more scientific sources. For example:
HDPE:
Volatile organic components migrating from plastic pipes (HDPE, PEX and PVC) into drinking water - ScienceDirect
LDPE:
Kinetic migration studies from packaging films into meat products - ScienceDirect
(migration- leaching. LDPE packaging leach chemicals into meats. It also says about correlation between leaching and temperature- the higher the storage temp, the more leaching occurs)
There are no plastics that are completely non-reactive. It's the levels at which they leach that are generally considered safe for certain types of plastic. But we're talking about long-term storage of products that contain organic solvents (both PG and VG are used as solvents, among other uses).
Whelp, I am going to like agree with some of it, which a) I just never read the dang plastic studies I was fine with tapwater because the husband hooked up this set of increasingly intensive filtration systems under our houses, he filtered down to one micron or something I wasn't listening that hard. But Tucson water is GROSS. Now, I will say when we had our water main break in Douglas rental I never considered the age of the house and it was the initial pipes which were all revolting and corroded and whatnot. They put in plastic pipe it did to look much better to me. I am a fan of copper pipe for everything. So all in all the annoyance was worth not drinking .poison coffee.
But you can't have it both ways, PC and VG can't be SOLVENTS and eat plastic and highly microbial I think you may have to pick one or the other. Either they are leeching our plastics to death or they are growing germs but NOT both.
IDK. I just can't be getting ultra paranoid on all this just now I simply don't have the energy.
I suppose glass everything in a freezer might be best, I'm just well, IDK plastic is certainly not better than copper but it is CERTAINLY better than lead.
Although I must say I am getting a sort of Rome burns while Caesar plays the violin vibe ,or eviscerating slaves, or whatever it was. Not so much due to plastics although I think when we discovered you know, fire, problems started to multiply and they pop up from time to time make us wonder if we be living or dying.....
Honestly though we are dying. From the moment of our birth, we head on a downward trajectory toward underground. So we are entirely living and dying all at the same time.
It kind of bugs me and pleases me both that the computer I am typing this on is so cheap it has no indication I have yet seen of whether the caps lock is on or OFF you just gotta discover it. This must mean I am both part of the problem and part of the solution.
Anna
But you can't have it both ways, PC and VG can't be SOLVENTS and eat plastic and highly microbial I think you may have to pick one or the other. Either they are leeching our plastics to death or they are growing germs but NOT both.
IDK. I just can't be getting ultra paranoid on all this just now I simply don't have the energy.
I suppose glass everything in a freezer might be best, I'm just well, IDK plastic is certainly not better than copper but it is CERTAINLY better than lead.
Although I must say I am getting a sort of Rome burns while Caesar plays the violin vibe ,or eviscerating slaves, or whatever it was. Not so much due to plastics although I think when we discovered you know, fire, problems started to multiply and they pop up from time to time make us wonder if we be living or dying.....
Honestly though we are dying. From the moment of our birth, we head on a downward trajectory toward underground. So we are entirely living and dying all at the same time.
It kind of bugs me and pleases me both that the computer I am typing this on is so cheap it has no indication I have yet seen of whether the caps lock is on or OFF you just gotta discover it. This must mean I am both part of the problem and part of the solution.
Anna
Hey I didn't mean to freak you or anybody out and I'm not asking for everyone to go crazy about every single thing that we all do. It's impossible to avoid every harmful thing in this world. All I'm saying is that there are relatively simple things that can be done to minimise the harm we're getting on a daily basis. Like popping your juice or juice bases in the fridge or freezer- simple and easy, then why not?
Solvents- I meant that they are used as solvents because of their chemical nature, so they are quite likely to dissolve things.
By the way- there are actually bacteria that eat plastic
Actually, I have no idea, I'd have to do some research to find out. I know one thing about copper piping when it comes to aquariums- if you keep any tropical shrimp, crayfish, or any other crustaceans, or in fact have a saltwater tank with corals, shrimp etc., you don't want ANY copper as a part of your setup. Even a small copper connector in your piping can wreck havoc in your tank. Fish alone will be ok though
But that's about all I know and it's not very relevant to human health and to the topic of this post lol
For evaporative coolers where winter gets below freeing, I'll take plastic over copper every time. Also not particularly relevant.
Nothing conclusive about health effects in these studies.
You can worry, I will not.
Both VG and PG are preventives of bacterial growth. You will not see it in not diluted liquids. Our VG and PG are bacteria safe. By the way, 2% of ethanol will do next to nothing to bacteria.
And why do you think ethanol is bad for lungs? Or at least worse than PG, VG or nicotine? From time to time I like to add some bourbon to my juice.
Could you name please any study that shows that contamination occurred during storage? I think there no such studies.
Bottom line: we should not bother ourselves with worries about bacteria growing in our juices.
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