Lost Vape Orion

[BillW50]

Finally, let's come to the biggest flaw of the orion, the Pods. It was obvious from the moment I opened this kit that it wasn't going to be a great MTL with such a big empty space in the chamber. I made an illustration of how easily this can be fixed by merely building a small shaft just below the mouthpiece that helps in minimising the space of the chamber and directs vapour directly from the coil to the mouth. I cannot understand how the orion was in beta for so many months, yet this glaring issue with the MTL pods was left unchanged. Give this device to any experienced MTL vaper and he will find the flaw within a few minutes.

May as well fill out the top half of the chamber too.

If you get a chance, look at how the air comes into the chamber, you will see how easy it would be to improve the way the air hits the coil.

I like to learn more about this. As I never noticed this at all. But while I vape mostly MTL, I generally don't like MTL devices at all, but I tend to use huge cloud making devices for MTL. And to me, small chamber size doesn't do it. What is hugely important is how the air hits the coil(s).

Take the Vapefly Galaxies RDTA for example. Lots of people are raving about what a great vape and flavor it has for MTL. And have you seen that chamber? It has a 22mm chamber, that's huge! And they call that 2ml below the deck a tank. That's not a tank, that's a 2ml drip well. And a very nice drip well I may add.

And as for the Orion pods, I had said it before and I'll say it again. It's not the chamber size that makes or breaks it. But it depends on the juice. For example, I vape a lot of coffee flavors and the Orion pods are wonderful for them. But tiny chambers are not good for my coffee flavors anyway.

This maybe shocking to many, but one of my favorite MTL device is my huge Mutation XL v3 with its huge 28mm chamber. Sure it can be a huge cloud maker. But you don't make huge clouds by MTL it. I thought you MTL people like flavor? Tiny chambers doesn't make big flavors. They make tiny flavors and tiny vapor. I just don't get it? Why do you like them?

However, forcing me to vape this in restricted DTL, I do have to say that I experienced one crucial thing that I was aware of, I neglected its importance until now. Most of my juices taste very different when providing more airflow, i.e. different range of temperatures. Some taste better, others worse. Having vaped MTL consistently for the last 7 years, I have been ignorant of the importance of this.

Absolutely! Most juice reviewers must not even read the comments. As MTL vapors are asking but what does it taste like when MTL? And the other camp ask the opposite if the reviewer is a MTL vapor. I vape both ways myself and I don't think I ever tasted a juice that tasted exactly the same either way.

 

[BillW50]

yes despite what bill will argue until he's blue in the face...just restricting the airflow doesn't make for a good mtl experience.
It's definitely not tight enough all the way around to make it great. It's decent but it's much better at restricted dtl and airy mtl.

And what's wrong with airy MTL and restrict DTL vaping? They are my favorite two ways to vape. The best way for getting flavor out of both too.

 

[dwcraig1]

That Vapefly is on my radar

 

[GeekyGeezer]

I like to learn more about this. As I never noticed this at all. But while I vape mostly MTL, I generally don't like MTL devices at all, but I tend to use huge cloud making devices for MTL. And to me, small chamber size doesn't do it. What is hugely important is how the air hits the coil(s).

Yes, airflow management around the coil is critical, and largely responsible for the success and high ratings for the Narda and other Narmods atties. But I still take issue with your thinking on chamber size.

A given build will produce a finite amount of vapor. The combination of coil, wick, and juice does not know the size of the chamber it's producing vapor into. It can't vaporize more or less - it just follows the laws of physics according to the parts it contains.

So for a given build being released into a vaper's mouth, smaller chambers will be more saturated. Same amount of vapor, larger area, it's always going to have less vapor particles in that space.

It's like brewing a pot of coffee and then diluting it with water - then drinking twice as much of it.

 

[mikepetro]

I hope you weren’t offended. I was just interested in hearing specifics.
Personally I don’t care if it doesn’t reach 30W above 0.4Ω. I care more about efficiency and being able to build at a bit higher than 0.4. I’ll send an email myself and try and get some info, although I suspect you have way more clout with them than I do.

No offense taken, just didnt want to be perceived as intentionally being coy. Some things I can talk about, some things I am restricted by a NDA, but in this case I have not seen a datasheet yet, even after asking Brandon directly. So, if you do get specs PLEASE pass them along as I would love to see them. I have 4 boards coming next week and I dont even have proper dimension drawings or anything.

 

[smoked25years]

If they used drop in coils (like Aspire's pods) then the differences for the MTL and DTL pods could be built into the coils/housing and they'd only need to manufacture one design for the plastic pod.

 

[BillW50]

If they used drop in coils (like Aspire's pods) then the differences for the MTL and DTL pods could be built into the coils/housing and they'd only need to manufacture one design for the plastic pod.

Really? What if the drop in coils were 4 bucks apiece? The same as pods pricing. That is what I don't get about those wanting drop in coils. If I were a manufacture of pods and I heard customers wanted drop in coils, I would think piece of cake, sell drop in coils at the same price as pods and they will be happy. Really is this what you want?

 

[Mark Todd]

I'd bet $1 that "the first beta China pods" he rebuilt weren't sealed and he hasn't tried to take apart one of the production pods. Just a guess though as I've only been following the topic and don't have the Orion.

I had the Orion from the tester batch, the initial pods and the retail ones

I've spent years finding ways to take apart heads and rebuild them, just because the wife will not let me back in the house some times and everyone needs a hobby but mucking about with Isoprop and glue is not something I would do and I would never show it in a video. I think it is great that mike found a way it can be done but it is a step to far for me.

 

[mikepetro]

Yeah, by design I think they intentionally make Pods hard to rebuild. If it is too easy they wont get the residual sales of them.

 

[smoked25years]

I had the Orion from the tester batch, the initial pods and the retail ones

I've spent years finding ways to take apart heads and rebuild them, just because the wife will not let me back in the house some times and everyone needs a hobby but mucking about with Isoprop and glue is not something I would do and I would never show it in a video. I think it is great that mike found a way it can be done but it is a step to far for me.

I agree. There are a few pods that can be rewicked pretty easily and fewer that can be rebuilt entirely. I'll take the opportunity to say that disassembly of the pods is the number 1 thing that I want to see in Youtube videos since I like to refresh the cotton if possible. Unfortunately, you don't often see it in reviews but I suppose the manufacturers aren't real keen on it.

Really? What if the drop in coils were 4 bucks apiece? The same as pods pricing. That is what I don't get about those wanting drop in coils. If I were a manufacture of pods and I heard customers wanted drop in coils, I would think piece of cake, sell drop in coils at the same price as pods and they will be happy. Really is this what you want?

I didn't mention price in my post. In fact, I was on the same side of the argument in another topic. I think it is silly that some folks think $3 pods are a waste of money but $2 drop in coils aren't.

Price will, of course, be a factor in the success of the product. We can make guesses or compare them to Aspire's overpriced $10 for the plastic empty pod. But they are just guesses.

I just think that it would be a better design since small changes to the housing of the drop in could very effectively change the vape for MTL and DTL without making a bunch of different molds. And it would allow easy customization.

 

[mikepetro]

I had the Orion from the tester batch, the initial pods and the retail ones

I've spent years finding ways to take apart heads and rebuild them, just because the wife will not let me back in the house some times and everyone needs a hobby but mucking about with Isoprop and glue is not something I would do and I would never show it in a video. I think it is great that mike found a way it can be done but it is a step to far for me.

Use Grain alcohol, take a sip every few minutes while its soaking, by the time it is ready to pop, you wont care anymore.....

 

[brewbear]

Use Grain alcohol, take a sip every few minutes while its soaking, by the time it is ready to pop, you wont care anymore.....

I'll drink to that!

 

[BillW50]

But I still take issue with your thinking on chamber size.

I love people who takes issue with me because this is how I learn the best.

A given build will produce a finite amount of vapor. The combination of coil, wick, and juice does not know the size of the chamber it's producing vapor into. It can't vaporize more or less - it just follows the laws of physics according to the parts it contains.

Ah, but when you cram more vapor into a smaller space, it turns back into a liquid again. That is just physics. And if you use a small chamber, you can't use huge coils. They just don't fit. So you have to use tiny coils. And tiny coils don't produce a lot of vapor period. That is just physics. It is virtually impossible to vaporize a lot of juice very quickly. The coils are just too small to do the job. It is like eating soup with a toothpick. Sure you can get a little taste, but that is about it. Want better flavor? You will need something bigger like a spoon.

The only way I can see your logic working out is this way. Say you have a tiny chamber small enough to fit one tiny 30g 5 wrap coil in it. And say you and I decide that works pretty well. Now take my mammoth Mutation XL and put the same tiny coil in it. Now you have a point, a very good point. As I bet I would much prefer vaping from that small chamber than from my Mutation.

But who builds that way? Bigger chambers needs bigger coils. Vapor density is probably the same between the large and small chambers, but the larger one will have vaporized a lot more juice than the smaller chamber. This is how these things work.

So for a given build being released into a vaper's mouth, smaller chambers will be more saturated. Same amount of vapor, larger area, it's always going to have less vapor particles in that space.

Tell that to the vapors in a cloud competition and they will just laugh at you. Nobody are using tiny chambers in a cloud competitions and nobody has more vapor in their mouths either. The data just doesn't match your claims. Want even more vapor production than the attys we use today? Easy, you need something bigger like a 600 watt fog machine. Doing just the opposite and going smaller just doesn't cut it. As that never works.

It's like brewing a pot of coffee and then diluting it with water - then drinking twice as much of it.

No it's not! Not even close. But rather it is like a big coffee pot vs. a small coffee pot. A big pot will make more coffee than a tiny pot will, every time. And no, the big pot will not end up being just water down coffee. Unless you use the same amount of grounds for each. But who does that?

 

[smoked25years]

But who builds that way? Bigger chambers needs bigger coils. Vapor density is probably the same between the large and small chambers, but the larger one will have vaporized a lot more juice than the smaller chamber. This is how these things work.

Someone used a garden hose as an analogy for the air flow to the coil. It could also be used as an analogy for the vapor flow through the mouth piece. A smaller chamber and chimney won't be as weak with less air flow. That's why vapes for MTL often have narrow chimneys and narrow bore drip tips.

The air flow for MTL and DTL is not black and white. Some like a loose MTL. There's no right or wrong. But in general, there's less air flow. With drop in coils, they could make a bunch of different options.

No it's not! Not even close. But rather it is like a big coffee pot vs. a small coffee pot. A big pot will make more coffee than a tiny pot will, every time. And no, the big pot will not end up being just water down coffee. Unless you use the same amount of grounds for each. But who does that?

A larger pot of coffee will be more watered down if brewed with the same amount of ground beans. Also, we don't make coffee under water or drink coffee while under water. I don't think the analogy helps.

 

[BillW50]

Someone used a garden hose as an analogy for the air flow to the coil. It could also be used as an analogy for the vapor flow through the mouth piece. A smaller chamber and chimney won't be as weak with less air flow. That's why vapes for MTL often have narrow chimneys and narrow bore drip tips.

Then why does my MTL devices suck with narrow chimneys and drip tips? Take the original Kanger Subtank. You could use either drop in coils or use a RBA. Although the original, you had to change to a narrower chimney for the RBA. That just sucked big time. They quickly changed that both could use the wider chimney. Now they were great even with the RBA. Nobody liked that original narrow chimney.

Narrow chimneys only allows a small amount of vapor through. While a wide chimneys allows a far more amount of vapor through. How can it be anything else, I dunno know? Can you produce this much vapor (pic below) with a narrow chimney and a tiny chamber? Absolutely not!

The air flow for MTL and DTL is not black and white. Some like a loose MTL. There's no right or wrong. But in general, there's less air flow. With drop in coils, they could make a bunch of different options.

They're generally less airflow because your mouth can't draw in as much vapor volume as your lungs can. Sure you can open up the airflow to be much larger. But you won't be able to use it all, so why bother?

Also, we don't make coffee under water or drink coffee while under water. I don't think the analogy helps.

I don't understand your point. I don't keep my vape in a pool nor vape underwater either. Why, do you?

 

[smoked25years]

Then why does my MTL devices suck with narrow chimneys and drip tips? Take the original Kanger Subtank. You could use either drop in coils or use a RBA. Although the original, you had to change to a narrower chimney for the RBA. That just sucked big time. They quickly changed that both could use the wider chimney. Now they were great even with the RBA. Nobody liked that original narrow chimney.

Narrow chimneys only allows a small amount of vapor through. While a wide chimneys allows a far more amount of vapor through. How can it be anything else, I dunno know? Can you produce this much vapor (pic below) with a narrow chimney and a tiny chamber? Absolutely not!

View attachment 772881​

They're generally less airflow because your mouth can't draw in as much vapor volume as your lungs can. Sure you can open up the airflow to be much larger. But you won't be able to use it all, so why bother?

Your opinion about whether a particular chimney is good or not is only your opinion. As I said, people will have different preferences. But there are certain general trends. When Kanger changed to a wider chimney, the wider chimney is still narrower than the chimney on a atty designed for cloud chasing. Everything is a matter of degree. Compare a RBA designed for cloud chasing with a RBA designed for tootle puffing and you will see the differences that I describe. The atty designed for tootle puffing will have a narrower chimney and won't have a chuff cap for a drip tip.

I don't understand your point. I don't keep my vape in a pool nor vape underwater either. Why, do you?

The point is the analogy isn't helpful so it is not really worth discussing the analogy any further. But to answer your question, I don't vape under water. I also don't inhale water but I do drink both coffee and water. The amount of water in coffee determines how dilute it is.

 

[BillW50]

Your opinion about whether a particular chimney is good or not is only your opinion. As I said, people will have different preferences. But there are certain general trends. When Kanger changed to a wider chimney, the wider chimney is still narrower than the chimney on a atty designed for cloud chasing. Everything is a matter of degree. Compare a RBA designed for cloud chasing with a RBA designed for tootle puffing and you will see the differences that I describe. The atty designed for tootle puffing will have a narrower chimney and won't have a chuff cap for a drip tip.

Just my opinion really? I know of no single soul who actually liked that narrow original Kanger Subtank chimney. That doesn't sound like just my opinion only. If you think so, so who liked that narrow chimney?

Of course it is generally true the MTL uses tends to use narrow chimneys and smaller chambers than most DTL devices. But the true reason is if you want only a little bit of vapor, you go with narrow and tiny. If you want a lot of vapor, you go wide and huge. That is it. That is the big secret!

I MTL more than I do DTL. But unlike most MTL users, I am not satisfied with the little vapor produced by most MTL devices. So I find using huge DTL devices while MTL provide far more vapor and flavor. And it only makes sense it does.

Take that Vapefly Galaxies MTL RDTA for example. People are raving how great it is. But look at it! That thing is huge for a MTL device. Heck drill larger air holes and I bet it would make a great DTL device too. But it is breaking the rules for a MTL device by going larger. More and more people are learning what I knew years ago that bigger is better.

 

[smoked25years]

Just my opinion really? I know of no single soul who actually liked that narrow original Kanger Subtank chimney. That doesn't sound like just my opinion only. If you think so, so who liked that narrow chimney?

I've never used the Kanger Subtank. It is your example, not mine. What's more significant is...

Of course it is generally true the MTL uses tends to use narrow chimneys and smaller chambers than most DTL devices.

You end up agreeing with my point (above). So I'm not sure why you think you disagree.

I MTL more than I do DTL. But unlike most MTL users, I am not satisfied with the little vapor produced by most MTL devices. So I find using huge DTL devices while MTL provide far more vapor and flavor. And it only makes sense it does.

As I said, people have different preferences.

Take that Vapefly Galaxies MTL RDTA for example. People are raving how great it is. But look at it! That thing is huge for a MTL device. Heck drill larger air holes and I bet it would make a great DTL device too. But it is breaking the rules for a MTL device by going larger. More and more people are learning what I knew years ago that bigger is better.

The Galaxies RDTA is unusual. It has a large chamber but a narrow 1.5mm opening underneath the coil and a narrow 4mm opening at the top cap. It also has 2 additional air flow holes that can be opened or closed off. For comparison, on the Kayfun Prime the opening under the coil is 2mm and the internal diameter of the chimney is 4mm. Compare that to a cloud chaser atty.

 

[BillW50]

I've never used the Kanger Subtank. It is your example, not mine. What's more significant is...

You end up agreeing with my point (above). So I'm not sure why you think you disagree.

Because I believe this part is true. Small chambers and chimneys produces little vapor and flavor. I have been looking for one that produces a lot of vapor and flavor with the narrow chimney and chamber and I never found one yet. If you found one, please share.

As I said, people have different preferences.

I believe people only thinks they have different preferences. As I believe when push comes to shove, everybody wants more vapor and flavor. They just don't know it yet.

The Galaxies RDTA is unusual. It has a large chamber but a narrow 1.5mm opening underneath the coil and a narrow 4mm opening at the top cap. It also has 2 additional air flow holes that can be opened or closed off. For comparison, on the Kayfun Prime the opening under the coil is 2mm and the internal diameter of the chimney is 4mm. Compare that to a cloud chaser atty.

But where is the extra two holes for the coil on the Kayfun? The Vapefly really improved vapor and flavor by hitting the coil at 3 different spots. Mark my words, in the future companies will increase that 3 number and have far more hitting the coil(s).

 

[smoked25years]

Because I believe this part is true. Small chambers and chimneys produces little vapor and flavor. I have been looking for one that produces a lot of vapor and flavor with the narrow chimney and chamber and I never found one yet. If you found one, please share.

The chamber and chimney are one part of the equation. On a Kayfun Prime, you will use a smaller coil and lower wattage than on a cloud chaser.

For ME, the flavor on the Kayfun Prime is great. From what I've heard about YOUR preferences, I don't think it would work well for YOU.

I believe people only thinks they have different preferences. As I believe when push comes to shove, everybody wants more vapor and flavor. They just don't know it yet.

It must be cool knowing that what's best for YOU is best for EVERYONE. Haha!

But where is the extra two holes for the coil on the Kayfun?

The extra 2 holes on the Galaxies is one of the unusual things about it. Closed off, the air flow can actually be less than on the Prime. Opened up it can be restricted DTL, in my opinion and the opinion of several reviewers.

The Vapefly really improved vapor and flavor by hitting the coil at 3 different spots. Mark my words, in the future companies will increase that 3 number and have far more hitting the coil(s).

Having 3 airflow slots hits multiple areas of the coil but it only works well with more airflow. If you use the narrowest airflow settings on the outside, the airflow stream will be really weak if you have the side air flow open.

For someone like you who wants lots of airflow, I can see why you enjoy the 3 air flow. But for those who want a really restricted airflow, it won't give good results. They have the option of closing it off. ...but of course, you know what's best for them.