MaxxFusion Burn tests coil temp test..silicone melt test..

[Rift]

Spent more time with the casing and I retract my statement about the fiberglass. Upon initial inspection it didn't resemble fiberglass to me granted I didn't heat it and then break it apart to see the first time around. But once you break it down a bit things change. I asked a few buddy's as well and they are all leaning towards the same thing. The inner casing seems to really closely resemble fiberglass braided tubing. I will add some pictures at a later point to show my findings. Id love to hear from Leaford on this one as this was one of my original questions but never did find out exactly.

 

[MahBohMan]

I don't see how anyone can interpret this very interesting thread as anything but great for Bloog. We have what seems like several very intelligent and inquisitive people pondering ways to make a relatively new product even better than it already is. That seems like free R&D help to me. And better yet, it comes directly from a user of their product.

Let's not for a second consider any of their comments to be FACTS. Instead, let's view it as interesting, hands-on information and observations of what makes this device tick and continue to ask questions and offer our own observations. I and many that I've read posts from hope that this carto is part of taking a step closer to an even better PV experience. But, I hope nobody is naive enough to think that vaping is ever going to be done evolving. Finding the flaws is the first, and most important, step in continual improvement. Have you ever noticed the -A, -B, -C or Version *.1, *.2, *.3 designations on almost every product out there? That's because feedback was received, or new technology became available, that made it an even better version than the last. Let's keep this thread heading in that direction, instead of berating the posters' observations and questioning of the status quo.

I love it that there are people that are willing and able to spend the time to dissect and measure such things for those of us that don't and I bet that Leaford is grateful for any feedback and information that could lead him to an even better product. I have never heard him get defensive or go into denial in any of his many posts. He has a lot to do and I'm sure a lot on his mind. I absolutely don't doubt that he will continue to try to improve the product. Keep giving him you thoughts and we will end up with an even better PV moving forward.

AHH Thank you for chiming in here, what you are thinking is exactly why I took some time to do some tests. To HELP Bloog, not beat them down. I am a Bloog customer and a supporter all day long....I have built a ton of 510 mods, I own a magma 510 kit, an ato-miser from inhaler, I have built touch switch mods and copper pipe 510 slammers, I have used the ce-2 cartos, and the Bloog is right there with the best of them. And finding any flaws, however minor they may be, is exactly the key to taking one more step towards perfection.

 

[cryx]

Have you had the 'foul taste' on a Bloog battery at 3.6V? Or on a V4L battery at 4.2V (freshly-charged) or 3.7V? Or only on a PT? I'm honestly curious, as someone who has never experienced this 'foul taste' in any BMF carto.

I've had the foul taste on at least half of of the blanks I've gotten. All used on BMF batteries.

I don't have a bloog battery because they were out of stock when I ordered. I've used non-bloog batteries, and tried to charge to <4V since it lessened the onset of the problem. It starts with a diminished or "off" flavor, then rapidly deteriorates into a foul taste. It will taste bad on a full juice fill, at any voltage, even a battery ready to die.

I initially didn't use a PT on the bloogs. It burned up a wow carto pretty quick, and one puff on the bloog was terribly harsh. I didn't use the the PT until the adhesive was removed, and that was because I wanted to give it a good beating to confirm the adhesive was the problem. I puffed it like a cigar until I realized it tasted really damn good. However, I immediately stopped using the PT after seeing the temps measured in this thread.

My wife complained this morning that her carto is starting to sting when exhaling via the nose. I'll be tearing it apart again this evening... I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't love these cartos.

 

[cryx]

My wife complained this morning that her carto is starting to sting when exhaling via the nose. I'll be tearing it apart again this evening... I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't love these cartos.

Sigh. The silicone sleeve had two big brown scorches from the wires. One scorch melted a small divot into the tip of the sleeve. I cut ~1/8" off the bottom of the sleeve and it seems to taste ok again. I'm desperately trying to keep these working long enough to see if the next batch is fixed since I'm not fond of the alternate carto designs out there...

 

[DeeLeeKay]

Sigh. The silicone sleeve had two big brown scorches from the wires. One scorch melted a small divot into the tip of the sleeve. I cut ~1/8" off the bottom of the sleeve and it seems to taste ok again. I'm desperately trying to keep these working long enough to see if the next batch is fixed since I'm not fond of the alternate carto designs out there...

Hang in there! There will be a new batch of blanks soon. Within a week we are being told. If the problem is not fixed it seems that with a few mods you can use them. So buying some will not be a waste and get a few extras. This way you won't run short.

 

[cryx]

Spent more time with the casing and I retract my statement about the fiberglass. [...] The inner casing seems to really closely resemble fiberglass braided tubing. I will add some pictures at a later point to show my findings.

For others to judge for themselves:
-Insulating Fiber Glass sleeving products, buy Insulating Fiber Glass sleeving products from alibaba.com
-HST Silicone Extruded & Fiberglass Braided Sleeve/Tube products, buy HST Silicone Extruded & Fiberglass Braided Sleeve/Tube products from alibaba.com
-Fiberglass Sleeve products, buy Fiberglass Sleeve products from alibaba.com
-self-extinguish heat treat fiberglass sleeving products, buy self-extinguish heat treat fiberglass sleeving products from alibaba.com
-2753 silicon resin self-extinguishable fiberglass sleeving products, buy 2753 silicon resin self-extinguishable fiberglass sleeving products from alibaba.com
-Fiberglass Silicone Coated Sleeving products, buy Fiberglass Silicone Coated Sleeving products from alibaba.com

Id love to hear from Leaford on this one as this was one of my original questions but never did find out exactly.

Ditto.

 

[leaford]

Hi guys,

First of all, thanks for all this great data!

We've been testing cartos for the burnt taste over the last couple weeks, and so far we aren't seeing any correlation between the burnt taste and any signs of burnt or scorched silicon rings or adhesive.

The only variables we've been able to conclusively establish that contribute to the burnt taste are the battery voltage, the carto resistance, and the VG content. IOW, when we test a cartomizer with 2.0 ohm resistance, filled with 100%VG, on a 5v passthrough, we nearly always get a burnt taste. Lower any of those variables and we find fewer cartos we all agree taste burnt. (That's been one of the challenges in this, often one of us tastes something burnt, and the other doesn't.)

So far, the silicon doesn't seem to be a contributing variable. But I'm not dismissing the possibility. A dry coil burns hotter than a wet one, and can melt the silicon if it contacts it. It should never be in contact, but maybe there are manufacturing variances at play. It's something to watch for if nothing else.

As for the airtube, it is fiberglass. I am not sure if it is coated. I have been told it isn't, but my translator didn't understand the word "coated", so I had to resort to "painted," so I'm not sure if the answer I got was correct. I'll dig further.

 

[pmos69]

Glad to hear from you, Leaford.
Thanks.

 

[cryx]

I'm preface this with there is no anger or nastiness in my replies. I'm a blunt and to-the-point engineer when it comes to technical discussions. If I am angry, it will be unmistakable.

We've been testing cartos for the burnt taste over the last couple weeks, and so far we aren't seeing any correlation between the burnt taste and any signs of burnt or scorched silicon rings or adhesive.

Any burnt or scorched silicone is not health and needs to be addressed. Formaldehyde is not your friend...

... one of the challenges in this, often one of us tastes something burnt, and the other doesn't.

There's the foul taste, and there's the acidic taste. A 27% acidic failure rate out of the box mustn't be that hard to reproduce. The definitive test is does it sting or burn if exhaled through the nose. Exhaling from the mouth makes it subjective.

So far, the silicon doesn't seem to be a contributing variable. But I'm not dismissing the possibility. A dry coil burns hotter than a wet one, and can melt the silicon if it contacts it. It should never be in contact, but maybe there are manufacturing variances at play. It's something to watch for if nothing else.

There are definitely QC issues at play. A number have observed the coil in the slit, I even found one outside the tube. It doesn't take direct contact with the silicone to cause a problem. The coil is so close and hot enough to cause problems as evidenced by the scorching.

Have you tried removing the silicone adhesive from any of the foul tasting ones? I find it hard to believe it's not a contributing factor when it's removal has made so many bad cartos usable again...

Then again, I feel that perfectly manufactured cartos are being tested, and not the run of the mill ones we are purchasing.

As for the airtube, it is fiberglass. I am not sure if it is coated.

Ask them a link to the product on Alibaba.

 

[ko josen]

"

Yes, silicones release formaldehyde under heat. We still have no idea what is mixed with the silicone adhesive, but it'll outgas too. I'll provide the data, people can decide if they want to be concerned.

Source: Material Safety Data Sheet for any silicone
"When heated to temperatures above 302F in the presence of air, product can form formaldehyde vapors. Formaldehyde is a potential cancer hazard, a known skin and respiratory sensitizer, and an irritant to the eyes, nose, throat, skin, and digestive system. Safe handling conditions may be maintained by keeping vapor concentrations within the OSHA Permissible Exposure Limit for formaldehyde."

Source: Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)
"Formaldehyde is a sensitizing agent that can cause an immune system response upon initial exposure. It is also a suspected human carcinogen that is linked to nasal cancer and lung cancer. Acute exposure is highly irritating to the eyes, nose, and throat and can make you cough and wheeze. Subsequent exposure may cause severe allergic reactions of the skin, eyes, and respiratory tract."

Source: International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC)
classified in 2009 as a "known human carcinogen"

Source: GE Silicones
Formaldehyde generation caused by thermal breakdown. Note: the tested silicone was able to withstand ~500F. According to MahBohMan, this carto's silicone melts well below 500F, so the formaldehyde ppm values for the carto may be higher than shown here.

302F - 0.000002 ppm
392F - 0.001 ppm
437F - 0.1 ppm (irritation starts here)
482F - 0.26 ppm
509F - 1.01 ppm
572F - 19 ppm
608F - 87 ppm

Source: MahBohMan
bloog battery measured at 280F - 460F
"this particular silicone plug will melt at MUCH lower temps than 500F"
(fully charged non-bloog battery is hotter by an unknown amount).

Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)
8 hour exposure: average 0.75 ppm
short-term exposure: 2 ppm total in 15 minutes

CDC's National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH)
8 hour exposure: average 0.016 ppm
ceiling concentration: 0.1 ppm - not to be exceeded at any time
IDLH (immediately dangerous to life or health): 20ppm

quoted from another thread

 

[MahBohMan]

Hi guys,

First of all, thanks for all this great data!

We've been testing cartos for the burnt taste over the last couple weeks, and so far we aren't seeing any correlation between the burnt taste and any signs of burnt or scorched silicon rings or adhesive.

The only variables we've been able to conclusively establish that contribute to the burnt taste are the battery voltage, the carto resistance, and the VG content. IOW, when we test a cartomizer with 2.0 ohm resistance, filled with 100%VG, on a 5v passthrough, we nearly always get a burnt taste. Lower any of those variables and we find fewer cartos we all agree taste burnt. (That's been one of the challenges in this, often one of us tastes something burnt, and the other doesn't.)

So far, the silicon doesn't seem to be a contributing variable. But I'm not dismissing the possibility. A dry coil burns hotter than a wet one, and can melt the silicon if it contacts it. It should never be in contact, but maybe there are manufacturing variances at play. It's something to watch for if nothing else.

As for the airtube, it is fiberglass. I am not sure if it is coated. I have been told it isn't, but my translator didn't understand the word "coated", so I had to resort to "painted," so I'm not sure if the answer I got was correct. I'll dig further.

Thanks for taking the time to check the thread Leaford. Like I said in an earlier post, I am a fan of Bloog, I think the design on the auto battery cartomizer setup is great, instantaneous cloud of vapor, it works great. I have personally never tasted a "burnt" maxx fusion carto. I have seen small amounts of the melted silicone on the insulator where the leads are squeeze fit. If for any reason the silicone plug comes in contact with the coil, which by design it should not after double checking the construction, it will melt even with a soaked wick and coil. It could be a variant in the actual assembly line that might cause the burnt taste.

I also realized something after dissasembling 10 separate cartos, you have to realize that if you pop out the bottom plug sometimes the tip of the silicone plug will tear giving the illusion of melting. With some plugs, a small amount of the adhesive which secures the inner fiberglass tube will remain on the tip of the silicone insulator plug, giving it a distorted appearance.

This could also be mistaken for a "burnt" plug. After taking one apart a few minutes ago, I think I found something. If you take the inner fiberglass tube off the coil assembly, there is adhesive on the bottom of the tube, the split end which wraps the coil. If the adhesive comes in contact with the coil, the adhesive will deteriorate RAPIDLY. I did test this, I wouldn't shoot from the hip, or theorize here when it comes to someone's livelyhood.

This could be a cause of the "burnt" taste, there could be an issue with how the adhesive is applied during manufacturing. Maybe a variant in the amount of adhesive they use...some might get too much and maybe it squeezes and touches the coil.

Just another avenue to explore, keep up the good work.

 

[leaford]

I'm preface this with there is no anger or nastiness in my replies. I'm a blunt and to-the-point engineer when it comes to technical discussions. If I am angry, it will be unmistakable.

No problem, I'm often a bit lax on the polite nicities myself when it comes to technical matters.

Any burnt or scorched silicone is not health and needs to be addressed. Formaldehyde is not your friend...

Again, as in the other thread, I think you're being a bit alarmist about formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is a natural substance present in the air, most food and drinks, and is produced in our bodies by normal metabolic processes. It's all a matter of the amount. I have a hard time believing that even in a worst case scenario that those little bits of silicon could produce enough formaldehyde to pose any hazard. Even if you outgassed all the potential formaldehyde in the silicon componants, it's probably less than what's in one analog cigarette, or than what's in your body right now as a metabolic byproduct. And definitley less than the industrial exposure that has been correlated with elevated cancer risk.

There's the foul taste, and there's the acidic taste. A 27% acidic failure rate out of the box mustn't be that hard to reproduce. The definitive test is does it sting or burn if exhaled through the nose. Exhaling from the mouth makes it subjective.

I'm not so sure that that's a definitive test. Certainly not if the testor isn't already used to exhaling through the nose. I frequently exhale through my nose. I just like it that way. But I can't begin to tell you how many people I've gotten to choke up by trying it that way. If they aren't used to exhaling vapor that way, of course it will feel extremely irritating. Even if they were used to exhaling smoke that way; vapor is different.

There are definitely QC issues at play. A number have observed the coil in the slit, I even found one outside the tube. It doesn't take direct contact with the silicone to cause a problem. The coil is so close and hot enough to cause problems as evidenced by the scorching.

That is a worrying possibility, and I am looking into that.

Have you tried removing the silicone adhesive from any of the foul tasting ones? I find it hard to believe it's not a contributing factor when it's removal has made so many bad cartos usable again...

I am now.

Then again, I feel that perfectly manufactured cartos are being tested, and not the run of the mill ones we are purchasing.

Well, I don't know about "perfectly manufactured," but it is true that the cartos used for testing have been made for that purpose rather than just taken off the line. But, that said, they're still being made by the same people and from the same materials. It's just a matter of the production supervisor telling them to make an extra "X" amount for our testing.

Ask them a link to the product on Alibaba.

Good suggestion, then I would know who their supplier is and could contact them myself. I get really sick of asking and asking for MSDS and testing info just to be told yet again that it will be coming. Of course, manufacturers always keep their suppliers secret, so they may not be willing. I don't know why, it's not like we would buy componants by ourselves just to cut them out, or anything.

 

[n00b]

Well, I don't know about "perfectly manufactured," but it is true that the cartos used for testing have been made for that purpose rather than just taken off the line. But, that said, they're still being made by the same people and from the same materials. It's just a matter of the production supervisor telling them to make an extra "X" amount for our testing.

Why aren't random samples being taken off the line for random testing and QC? How can you ensure a quality product if you don't regularly take a few off the line and double check?

 

[leaford]

I have seen small amounts of the melted silicone on the insulator where the leads are squeeze fit. If for any reason the silicone plug comes in contact with the coil, which by design it should not after double checking the construction, it will melt even with a soaked wick and coil. It could be a variant in the actual assembly line that might cause the burnt taste.

The carts are dry burnt briefly during assembly to test them. This occurs after the base/coil/wick/airtube portion is assembled, but before the filler layers are added. Since they are dry, the coils get hot enough to scorch or melt the silicon, accounting for small scorch marks where the wires contact the silicon ring, and possibly for scorching inside the tube.But it shouldn't occur with a wet wick; I tried it the other day. With a carto core on their testing rig, I could melt a silicon ring held against it while the coil was dry, but when the engineer kept it wet by feeding it with a syringe, I could put the silicon ring in full contact without any melting or scorching.

I also realized something after dissasembling 10 separate cartos, you have to realize that if you pop out the bottom plug sometimes the tip of the silicone plug will tear giving the illusion of melting. With some plugs, a small amount of the adhesive which secures the inner fiberglass tube will remain on the tip of the silicone insulator plug, giving it a distorted appearance.

Agreed. I noticed that right from the first pics Cryx posted.

This could also be mistaken for a "burnt" plug. After taking one apart a few minutes ago, I think I found something. If you take the inner fiberglass tube off the coil assembly, there is adhesive on the bottom of the tube, the split end which wraps the coil. If the adhesive comes in contact with the coil, the adhesive will deteriorate RAPIDLY. I did test this, I wouldn't shoot from the hip, or theorize here when it comes to someone's livelyhood.

This could be a cause of the "burnt" taste, there could be an issue with how the adhesive is applied during manufacturing. Maybe a variant in the amount of adhesive they use...some might get too much and maybe it squeezes and touches the coil.

Just another avenue to explore, keep up the good work.

I am coming around to suspecting this more and more, and am now shifting my testing routines to check it. It would explain why the reports involving other variables have been so contridictory.

 

[leaford]

Why aren't random samples being taken off the line for random testing and QC? How can you ensure a quality product if you don't regularly take a few off the line and double check?

I do that all the time. During every hour of carto manufacturing I grab random samples, pop them on my batt and try them out. I also check a few key parts of the assembly process on a spot checking basis, and give extra attention to areas like the resistance which had previous problems with.But when I'm talking about the testing I'm doing on this issue, I'm talking about a lot more cartos than just a couple an hour. For each testing scenario, we are using dozens of cartos, and to just grab them off the line wouldn't be fair to the workers who are trying to fill actual production orders. IOW, If I just scoop up 50 cartos unplanned it throws off everyone's quotas and schedules. And more importantly, we need cartos that match the specific testing scenario. If we're testing the VG content as a variable, for example, we need ALL the cartos to have the exact same resistance so that the resistance is NOT a variable in those tests. OTOH, if we're testing resistance as the variable, we need a wide variety of different resistances, but specific resistance levels, not random ones. Neither of which we can get just by grabbing random cartos.So, for both these reasons, we plan it out. We determine what we need for the next days tests, notify the production supervisor, who schedules the production so we get what we need for our tests without disrupting regular production.Make sense?

 

[n00b]

Ok I understand how you do things a little bit better now. At least you are doing some QC. I don't know if any other companies are doing any QC at all. They might be but they are not as transparent about it (to my limited knowledge, of course.)

It is unfortunate that QC is not built into the runs and that quotas take precedence. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not a fully automatic factory and cartos are handle built? Speed is one thing but how it is assembled can vary from person to person and I would assume without QC built into the process quality can suffer because of the ability of assembler (and rushing to meet a quota).

 

[leaford]

Ok I understand how you do things a little bit better now. At least you are doing some QC. I don't know if any other companies are doing any QC at all. They might be but they are not as transparent about it (to my limited knowledge, of course.)

It is unfortunate that QC is not built into the runs and that quotas take precedence. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not a fully automatic factory and cartos are handle built? Speed is one thing but how it is assembled can vary from person to person and I would assume without QC built into the process quality can suffer because of the ability of assembler (and rushing to meet a quota).

Our manufacturer does far more QC testing than any other e-cig factory I've ever seen. Typically, there are a handful of tests most manufacturers do, and most of them are on a random spot-checking basis. Our manufacturer tests nearly every componant and stage of assembly. Just to take the batteries as an example, most factories test the battery cells on arrival by discharging and recharging them once. A small percentage of switches will be random spot checked before accepting the supply delivery. During assembly batts are tested after the power connections are soldered by electronic activation which mostly only proves the LED lights up. And they get a single puff on a test carto after assembly. That's it. Oh wait, I almost forgot, they also charge them to full charge after assembly, and they count THAT as a "test".

Our manufacturer, OTOH, not only tests all the battery cells for one charge cycle, they also test ALL the switches, 100% of them, through 300 electronic activations, and tests random switches to verify they only activate under the proper decible and airflow ranges, before assembly. And besides the same post soldering tests, and final puff tests, that the other manufracturers do during assembly, our manufacturer also tests the airflow to make sure it is consistent, and tests the voltage output. And after assembly, besides charging the batts (which I don't count as a test) ALL batts are tested by machine through a full charge cycle to make sure the switch, LED, and cell all work properly. Those are just examples, BTW, not a complete list of their tests.

That's why I chose this manufacturer. Because on my first trip to China, I took every QC test I saw at other factories and showed them to my friend, and while he couldn't implement them at his old factory, when he started his own he not only put every one of my suggestions to use, he added more QC and testing ideas of his own.
And, of course, then there's my own additional layer of random QC checks on top of all that, which is something that hardly any other retailers in this business do at all.

 

[n00b]

Thanks for the detail. Very enlightening!

 

[cryx]

I'm sure the batteries are high quality, and BMF batteries are on the top of my list when my V4Ls die. I'm sure you are aware that it's much easier to consistently test electronics than it is cartos. A few deviations by assemblers isn't going to make that much of a difference. However... The cartos are a completely different story. As designed, minuscule deviations in the carto assembly make a huge difference.

I can tell you it's not easy to perfectly assemble these cartos. I can slap one together in well under a minute, but the coil is unlikely to be seated well. I've got 20/10 vision and a steady hand -- it's still not easy. When my iPhone took a 30 minute soak in a salt water pool, I fully dismantled it, removed corrosion, and touch up a few blown out solder joints the size of a human hair. I quartered thread thin solder to position a tiny fleck only visible with the loupe, used alligator clips to hold the fleck down with a needle, and cleanly bridged the connection. The hardware guys at work with professional equipment had no idea how I pulled it off...

Inevitably something goes wrong when inserting the battery tip. I can have everything perfectly aligned and centered with the silicone sleeve inserted. Then the pin goes in... Flip it over and examine it with a loupe. Odds are the coil shifted on the wire because the downward pressure loosened the coil, the coil compressed, the wick moved, a short wick popped loose on one side, the wired is almost touching the shell, etc. Pop the pin out and try again...

It's not real QC unless performing unannounced random sampling of the cartos. The assemblers are busting their ... to crank out their quotas because if they don't do it, they can easily be replaced, so they are going to be sloppy. Now tell that person they are making cartos for testing. They are going to slow down and do the best job they can. Even if you tell the manager you are going to randomly sample, he's going to tell his workers and they will do a better job than usual.

It's also not easy to spot check for something that can take almost a week a few refills to manifest. The adhesive doesn't start to be a problem for days.

 

[n00b]

Sounds like a better carto design is needed. Something that should be easy to assemble and not unseat. The Clearomizers are interesting but they tend to leak I hear. We need to get some physicists that specialize in fluid dynamics. ;-)