Michigan Gov Whitmer releases vaping ban rules...

[OcalaFlGuy]

I read the Mi emergency order pretty carefully.

I did not see a single word that prohibits a citizen of Mi from mail ordering their juice, as usual, assuming their supplier is not within the state of Mi.

Bruce in Ocala, Fl-WhoIsGladHisStateDoesntCaterToTheWhineyGashes

 

[JustWondering1]

I just saw a piece on Fox News Channel with Shepherd Smith and Judge Andrew Napolitano, a former NJ judge and Judicial Analyst for FNC. It was a pretty balanced piece that pointed out the insanity of the bans, mentioned that it would likely force people back to smoking, etc. etc. Napolitano, who is a libertarian, said the governments in MI and NY will lose challenges to the bans because the bans weren't based on facts, and there aren't facts to form a legal basis for a ban. I hope he is right, but I'm continuing to stock up.

 

[zoiDman]

Of my concerns is that they are allowed to dictate penalties without them first going through the legislative process. How is this possible?

Read the Paragraph under Robert Gordon's signature.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...-_signed_by_Gov-Director_9.18.19_666139_7.pdf

 

[DaveOno]

And India is banning all e-cigs. All.
Because there were 7 deaths in the USA and India fears of vaping for their youth.



Seriously?

There were 19 deaths from tobacco in India....

In the last 60 seconds.


India loses 10,000,000 a year to tobacco.

Yes, 10 million!

jsmh

 

[AttyPops]

Link to the actual rules...

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...-_signed_by_Gov-Director_9.18.19_666139_7.pdf

I read the Mi emergency order pretty carefully.

I did not see a single word that prohibits a citizen of Mi from mail ordering their juice, as usual, assuming their supplier is not within the state of Mi.

Bruce in Ocala, Fl-WhoIsGladHisStateDoesntCaterToTheWhineyGashes

Well, maybe I read it wrongly, but see rule # 5:

These rules apply with equal force to retailers and resellers utilizing online and other remote sales methods that are intended to deliver flavored nicotine vapor products to this state.

Now, I have no idea if that's legal or enforceable.

 

[ruet]

Read the Paragraph under Robert Gordon's signature.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...-_signed_by_Gov-Director_9.18.19_666139_7.pdf

Wow, that's quite a rule.

24.248 Emergency rules; tolling effective date; scheduling substance as controlled substance; numbering and compilation; "administrator" defined. Sec. 48. (1) If an agency finds that preservation of the public health, safety, or welfare requires promulgation of an emergency rule without following the notice and participation procedures required by sections 41 and 42 and states in the rule the agency's reasons for that finding, and the governor concurs in the finding of emergency, the agency may dispense with all or part of the procedures and file in the office of the secretary of state the copies prescribed by section 46 endorsed as an emergency rule, to 3 of which copies must be attached the certificates prescribed by section 45 and the governor's certificate concurring in the finding of emergency. The emergency rule is effective on filing and remains in effect until a date fixed in the rule or 6 months after the date of its filing, whichever is earlier. The rule may be extended once for not more than 6 months by the filing of a governor's certificate of the need for the extension with the office of the secretary of state before expiration of the emergency rule. Any period or extension during which an emergency rule is effective under this subsection is tolled from the date that the environmental rules review committee makes a determination as to a similar rule under section 66(5)(c) until the date a public hearing is held on the rule under section 66(7).

Here's what it says about penalties:

24.232

(3) The violation of a rule is a crime if provided by statute. Unless provided by statute, a rule must not designate an act or omission as a crime or prescribe a criminal penalty for violation of a rule.

You'd have to be charged in order to contest it but it sounds unconstitutional to me.

Edit: What's the penalty for violating that rule?

 

[CMD-Ky]

Absolutely terrible. Sorry to the Michigan and New York residents. You deserve better

Elections have consequences, someone once said.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Of my concerns is that they are allowed to dictate penalties without them first going through the legislative process. How is this possible?

We let them. Though there should be a huge outcry, there won't be. "You know, with all those kids dying, it seems like a good idea."

 

[CMD-Ky]

Don't feel sorry. We're used to being crapped on by a long history of moronic elected officials (see Snyder, Granholm, Engler, Blanchard..etc.) We just go to the one of our lakes, drink craft beer, and try to forget.

Like does have its compensations.

 

[zoiDman]

Wow, that's quite a rule.

...

That's why when a Governor announces that an Emergency has been Declared, it Isn't just some figure of speech, it's a BIG Deal.

And a "Health" Emergency can give a Governor Extensive and Far Reaching Powers.

Now is there Really a Health Emergency in Michigan?

Some would say that that if the Number of Yearly Deaths in Michigan from Smoking, or the Number of Michigan Teens who are Daily Smokers, doesn't constitute an Emergency, how can what we are currently Experiencing be considered one?

 

[CMD-Ky]

Slow death is acceptable to the government. Fast death, we have to do...something.

That's why when a Governor announces that an Emergency has been Declared, it Isn't just some figure of speech, it's a BIG Deal.

And a "Health" Emergency can give a Governor Extensive and Far Reaching Powers.

Now is there Really a Health Emergency in Michigan?

Some would say that that if the Number of Yearly Deaths in Michigan from Smoking, or the Number of Michigan Teens who are Daily Smokers, doesn't constitute an Emergency, how can what we are currently Experiencing be considered one?

 

[bnrkwest]

I'm a vaper. Not a criminal.

Michigan's e-cigarette ban comes with harsh penalties — potentially years in prison for violators

This is insane! MI has lost it's mind! But it's ok to have tobacco flavor. I just can't wrap my head around the insanity, it's like watching a bad B movie!

 

[zoiDman]

Elections have consequences, someone once said.

Is Schadenfreude spelled with one "n" or two?

 

[DaveOno]

Some would say that that if the Number of Yearly Deaths in Michigan from Smoking, or the Number of Michigan Teens who are Daily Smokers, doesn't constitute an Emergency, how can what we are currently Experiencing be considered one?

In this country, one every 56 seconds.
And in the week between the 6th and the 7th "vape" fatality, there were roughly 10,000 tobacco related deaths in this country.

 

[englishmick]

Well, maybe I read it wrongly, but see rule # 5:

These rules apply with equal force to retailers and resellers utilizing online and other remote sales methods that are intended to deliver flavored nicotine vapor products to this state.

Now, I have no idea if that's legal or enforceable.

A ban on the import of juice from out of State was part of the Indiana law. It's legality was questionable as was how they would enforce it. The outcome was that juice vendors just stopped shipping to Indiana, for a short while until the law was reversed. They have no incentive to break the law and risk expensive consequences. Just saying it is enough.

 

[AttyPops]

Well, maybe I read it wrongly, but see rule # 5:


Now, I have no idea if that's legal or enforceable.

And she has no jurisdiction over retailers in other states.....

Rule 5 is confusing. It doesn't make sense to me. Retailers inside MI, including online sales, would already be "banned" from selling flavored juice to MI. And she has no jurisdiction for outside retailers.

So maybe it's just trying to say "if you're a MI retailer, you can't sell online to MI residents" but it says it badly. If so it should read something like:

These rules apply with equal force to [Michigan] retailers and resellers utilizing online and other remote sales methods that are intended to deliver flavored nicotine vapor products to[/within] this state.

(Red added by me for discussion)
????????????
The word they used is TO! TO! TO this state.

 

[440BB]

There may be some room in Rule 2. The definitions in Rule 1 separately define "flavored vapor product" from "flavored nicotine vapor product". The limitations on sales, distribution and transport to sell specify "flavored nicotine vapor products", excluding "flavored vapor products".

This leaves 0 nic products out of the rules and penalties, except for advertising, as I read it. Anybody else see it that way?

 

[AttyPops]

A ban on the import of juice from out of State was part of the Indiana law. It's legality was questionable as was how they would enforce it. The outcome was that juice vendors just stopped shipping to Indiana, for a short while until the law was reversed. They have no incentive to break the law and risk expensive consequences. Just saying it is enough.

That's exactly what I was afraid of. Unflavored Nic base still good though! (I assume)

 

[AttyPops]

I don't understand rule 5 the way it is written.

Hey @Infernal2, what do you make of post#25? (also see 36)

 

[Rossum]

I just saw a piece on Fox News Channel with Shepherd Smith and Judge Andrew Napolitano, a former NJ judge and Judicial Analyst for FNC. It was a pretty balanced piece that pointed out the insanity of the bans, mentioned that it would likely force people back to smoking, etc. etc. Napolitano, who is a libertarian, said the governments in MI and NY will lose challenges to the bans because the bans weren't based on facts, and there aren't facts to form a legal basis for a ban.

How long will these legal challenges take? My guess is that they will take long enough that it won't matter given the PMTA deadline in May.

I hope he is right, but I'm continuing to stock up.

If I weren't finished already, I'd be feeling a serious sense of urgency about that right now.