Michigan Gov Whitmer releases vaping ban rules...

[JustWondering1]

Michigan's vaping ban goes into effect. Here's what you need to know

Posted By Steve Neavling on Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 10:52 AM

Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s controversial ban on flavored nicotine e-cigarettes and liquids went into effect Wednesday after a judge declined a last-minute request to halt the ban.

Under Whitmer’s emergency orders, the sale of flavored nicotine vaping products is illegal and punishable by up to six months in jail.

But there’s still hope for vapers. Court of Claims Judge Cynthia Stephens set a hearing for Tuesday afternoon in Petoskey to consider a preliminary injunction that would temporarily stop the ban as part of a lawsuit filed by Marc Slis, owner of 906 Vapor, a vape shop in Houghton. Slis and his attorneys argue Whitmer overstepped her authority by imposing the ban without legislative approval.

Attorney General Dana Nessel’s office is defending the ban, saying the drastic rise in youth vaping constitutes a public health emergency, which allows the governor to take unilateral action.

U.S. District Judge Robert Jonker also is considering a request to temporarily stop the ban in a case filed by Mister E-Liquid, a Michigan-based maker of popular flavored vape juices. The company, which has 80 employees, says the ban may lead to bankruptcy. In that case, U.S. District Court Judge Robert Jonker said he would consider the company’s request for a preliminary injunction after giving the state 14 days to respond.

In the meantime, there is a loophole in the law that allows vapers to continue buying flavored nicotine. Whitmer’s ban only applies to flavored nicotine. That means people may still buy vape liquids and pods that are free of nicotine. And for about $5, they can buy a flavorless nicotine packet and dump it into a bottle of vape liquid.

The ban no longer prohibits possession of flavored nicotine; it only prohibits the sale of it.

Law enforcement authorities in Macomb County and Westland said they will begin inspecting vape shops Wednesday to ensure they are in compliance.

“The purpose for these visits will be to educate the shop owners on the emergency rules issued by the Department of Health and Human Services and ensure that the shops do not have any prohibited products offered for sale,” Westland Police Chief Jeff Jedrusik said in a news release. “We will have a team of community officers on the road for the next few days reminding them of the ban.”

Whitmer became the first governor to introduce a ban since a mysterious and deadly vaping-related lung illness was discovered in July. But the illness appears to be primarily linked to black-market cannabis vaping, not flavored nicotine, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Friday.

Despite the link to black market cannabis vaping, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and New York have also banned nicotine vaping products. They, too, are facing legal challenges.

Vaping advocates say the bans are misdirected and will increase the number of people who smoke cigarettes, which are generally considered far more hazardous and kill one of every two long-term smokers.

Oh thank goodness! Then I can still buy my favorite Ahlusion juices without the nic and add the nic myself! At least, that is, until either the Trump flavor ban goes into effect or until May rolls around and we see what happens with the Deeming Regs.

 

[Rossum]

At least, that is, until either the Trump flavor ban goes into effect or until May rolls around and we see what happens with the Deeming Regs.

Exactly. It's temporary at best.

Once the PMTA deadline passes, I think the most we can hope for is that some of the juice companies will re-open under different names that have nothing to do with vaping and just offer their recipes in the form of flavor concentrates, to put in you bottled water, of course. Sadly, that's likely to cut their revenues by a huge amount compared to selling finished juice, and I'm not confident it's enough for anyone to survive on.

 

[JustWondering1]

Exactly. It's temporary at best.

Once the PMTA deadline passes, I think the most we can hope for is that some of the juice companies will re-open under different names that have nothing to do with vaping and just offer their recipes in the form of flavor concentrates, to put in you bottled water, of course. Sadly, that's likely to cut their revenues by a huge amount compared to selling finished juice, and I'm not confident it's enough for anyone to survive on.

Why do you think that would cut into their profit margins so much that they'd go out of business? They would lower the retail price, of course, but their costs would be lowered too because they'd not have the expense of buying nic.

 

[Rossum]

Why do you think that would cut into their profit margins so much that they'd go out of business? They would lower the retail price, of course, but their costs would be lowered too because they'd not have the expense of buying nic.

A finished 60 ml bottle of juice that sells for $20 might cost $2.00 to make.

How do you think people will be willing to pay for the itty-bitty "flavor shot" bottle needed to replicate that juice at home?

And where will they get the nic? Sure, many of us here have plenty of nic in our freezers, but most of us already DIY our juice.

 

[icepickmaker84]

Exactly. It's temporary at best.

Once the PMTA deadline passes, I think the most we can hope for is that some of the juice companies will re-open under different names that have nothing to do with vaping and just offer their recipes in the form of flavor concentrates, to put in you bottled water, of course. Sadly, that's likely to cut their revenues by a huge amount compared to selling finished juice, and I'm not confident it's enough for anyone to survive on.

If Country Clouds sold their CBP recipe I’d totally pay for it.

 

[JustWondering1]

A finished 60 ml bottle of juice that sells for $20 might cost $2.00 to make.

How do you think people will be willing to pay for the itty-bitty "flavor shot" bottle needed to replicate that juice at home?

And where will they get the nic? Sure, many of us here have plenty of nic in our freezers, but most of us already DIY our juice.

I see what you are saying now. There's just so little we know now about what the actual regulations will be. If nic remains to be available, there's not a problem for knowledgeable nic vapers. It just makes more sense that the powers that be will yank nic off the market at some point because it would be a very effective way to kill nicotine vaping.

 

[Rossum]

I see what you are saying now. There's just so little we know now about what the actual regulations will be. If nic remains to be available, there's not a problem for knowledgeable nic vapers. It just makes more sense that the powers that be will yank nic off the market at some point because it would be a very effective way to kill nicotine vaping.

Yup. And nic obviously IS a tobacco product.

FWIW, I don't think they will kill nic vaping entirely. I expect the FDA will approve some (a very few) closed-system products. But in another few years, things certainly aren't going to look like they have for the last 5-7 years, with an essentially limitless choice of hardware and flavors, and the ability to make your own liquid for next to nothing (unless of course you've got the all the nic you'll ever need in your freezer).

 

[Haktuspit]

(unless of course you've got the all the nic you'll ever need in your freezer).

Is there anyone left without a freezer full of nic around here?

 

[Rossum]

Is there anyone left without a freezer full of nic around here?

Yeah, I think there are still a few.

 

[Eskie]

If the FDA wants to get all pissy, they can take the position that flavor shots are intended for vape use even if not so labelled. The fact you changed your business name may not be enough to dissuade them, and they can even take a position that the name change was done in a deliberate attempt to mislead and circumvent their regulations. Then you can go out and hire an attorney to fight them, but you'll be on your own, as the nature of the business would be so specific that you couldn't really pool in with others, and you sure couldn't rely on CASSA or any other vaping association to back you up. That would only reinforce the position the product(s) are in fact intended for use with vaping.

Not saying that's what the FDA will do, just what they could do, depending on how the whole approval process is implemented and enforced.

 

[Rossum]

If the FDA wants to get all pissy, they can take the position that flavor shots are intended for vape use even if not so labelled. The fact you changed your business name may not be enough to dissuade them, and they can even take a position that the name change was done in a deliberate attempt to mislead and circumvent their regulations. Then you can go out and hire an attorney to fight them, but you'll be on your own, as the nature of the business would be so specific that you couldn't really pool in with others, and you sure couldn't rely on CASSA or any other vaping association to back you up. That would only reinforce the position the product(s) are in fact intended for use with vaping.

Not saying that's what the FDA will do, just what they could do, depending on how the whole approval process is implemented and enforced.

Indeed, they could. But it does make it harder for them when there's no mention of vaping.

My guess is the economics of it won't work in any case, so all the FDA needs to so is be a pit patient, and I think they'll have their hands full with lower-hanging fruit for a quite some time.

I think that's really going to be the biggest question after May 11th: How aggressively does the FDA (or anyone else) want to enforce all this, and what resources will they have to do it?

 

[AttyPops]

I've said it all along, it's about the nic.

And unless you're into NETs, and you can grow your own tobacco, you're about to be screwed hard. Because the next step is low-nic cigs too. IDK about chew, but we'll see.

You can build your own devices, or have mechs. You can flavor juice yourself, and cut with PG/VG. But if you can't get nic, you can't get nic unless you grow it.

It's about the nic, and it always has been.

Don't ask me about seeds and if you can get non-gmo tobacco in the future that has "normal" nic quantities in it. IDK, I don't GYO.

 

[CMD-Ky]

what resources will they have to do it?

To stop a teen epidemic (and regain lost revenue), China and paper will fund the effort.

 

[CMD-Ky]

But if you can't get nic, you can't get nic unless you grow it.

Good, in so many ways, to live in rural Kentucky.

 

[AttyPops]

Good, in so many ways, to live in rural Kentucky.

Yeah, as long as you don't end up with genetically modified no-nic seeds.

 

[mightymen]

All is not lost!

FINALLY, A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE TO NICOTINE!
Expensive but I image if the demand grows the price will come down.

Botanika Gallon - Elixir Distro

General Health - Elixir Distro

 

[Rossum]

I've said it all along, it's about the nic.

And unless you're into NETs, and you can grow your own tobacco, you're about to be screwed hard.

... or you've seen this coming and prepared accordingly.

 

[Rossum]

All is not lost!

FINALLY, A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE TO NICOTINE!
Expensive but I image if the demand grows the price will come down.

Botanika Gallon - Elixir Distro

General Health - Elixir Distro

I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole without full disclosure of exactly what's in it.

 

[mightymen]

I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole without full disclosure of exactly what's in it.

Oh I agree with you. Though my point is this has been available two years. No doubt if Nic or flavor aren't allowed there will be other options like the man said "If you build it, they'll will come"

Alterna Botanical Nicotine Substitute Explained

 

[stols001]

If you create a cliff, the lemmings will jump off it.

I visited that site and it made me very angry. Very angry indeed. IT is also FOS.

There is no substitute for nicotine. No matter how cunningly packaged, how aggressively opaque, they should be reported to the FDA but I'm not doing it.

Because the FDA would be all, "LOOK at what dem vapers be doing NOW" and they'd "find" the "chemical ingredients" and they would report lead and hemlock.

Nic is like, one of those things that has been around FOREVER. We know it sucks, we wish (some of us perhaps) that we had not become addicted to it, but we also know our poison, and most of the risks involved.

That is like paying 500 dollars an ounce for a black box. And anything could be in it.

Anna