Minors and Vaping...bad news

[VapingRulz]

Cigarettes are sold in every corner convenience store. Beer-wine-liquor are sold in grocery stores in many states. All are legal products. Vendors have to show common sense and obey the laws concerning sales to minors. There is absolutely no reason - or legal basis - to subject e-cigarettes to more stringent laws than those that currently exist for other over-18 legal products.

There is also no reason to view e-cigarettes primarily as a threat to our youth instead of a godsend for current smokers who are trying to kick deadly analogs. The likelihood that a non-smoking teen is going to decide to shell out $50+ to try e-cigarettes is MUCH, MUCH lower than the likelihood that s/he will buy a pack of $6 analogs from the local convenience store. (And yes, many do sell to minors.) It's also a lot easier to steal a pack of mom or dad's analogs without it being noticed, than it is to filch an e-cig.

This is not about the children or about the health of smokers - past, present or future. That's a red herring. It's all about tax revenues and Big tobacco with their powerful DC lobbyists. As always, it pays to follow the money.

If I choose to blow [harmless] vapor out of my mouth and nose, why on earth is that anyone's business? Why should it matter if they don't like to see me do it - or they don't approve of vaping? Why should they be able to tell me I can't do it because it makes them uncomfortable? Screw them. There's plenty of things that people do that I don't like or approve of but I understand that it's none of my freaking business, so I keep my opinions to myself.

We have really become a nation of busybodies and buttinsky's. What a bunch of old ladies.

 

[ladyraj]

PlanetScribbles, I agree there is a continuum of risks that individuals should weigh as to what is an acceptable level of risk....or an unacceptable one. However, if a majority of individuals have no experience with a certain product, they often rely on the media to portray the risk association with products. Thus, as in your example with MacLaren strollers....how many parents will buy their product now?

How many vaporers have had family members, friends, and complete strangers cite the anti-freeze ingredient in the cartridges that vaporers partake of?

We have grown to be experts on the topic of our PVs but the majority of the public are not that well informed. If the argument against PVs is framed as an inducement to minors to adopt an alternative smoking habit, it upsurps the parental covenant to protect said minor. Parents simply do not like their authority being flouted in this manner. Yes, some parents view the PV as safer than cigarettes...but most prefer their precious children not develop ANY habits that might harm their precious buttocks.

 

[smokum]

I find it quite strange that everyone appears to consider the two companies mentioned as the bad guys here in this particular situation.

I certainly don't agree with their marketing strategies nor claims, however, the kiosk's are NOT employee's of those companies.

Those who chose to operate a kiosk are simply wholesalers or distributors of a product from a company that has developed and offers kiosk style set-ups, hardware, and marketing products.

It by no means extends any corporate support beyond that of someone who wishes to start up as an online retailer, nor is it a "paycheck" as an employee or "commissions" as a salesman or representative. THIS IS A BUSINESS set up by the individual looking to make money.... plain and simple.

If any of the other major manufacturers, distributors, or suppliers, wanted to develop such a "marketing outlet", it wouldn't be any different with the end result.

People with little scruples and simply wanting to make a buck would do the same, regardless of the product they would be selling.

Its those individuals running the kiosks or online sales that should receive the bad rap exclusively, not the parent companies themselves.

The parent companies should be attacked for unverified claims, and the lack of scientific data to back up those claims being made publicly, and that is all.

More food for thought........ and feel free to correct me should I some how be improperly informed on any of my take on things.

VapeOn,
Greg

 

[PlanetScribbles]

if a majority of individuals have no experience with a certain product, they often rely on the media to portray the risk association with products. Thus, as in your example with MacLaren strollers....how many parents will buy their product now?

Exactly. But, again, it doesn't mean that Maclaren product is dangerous at all. It's a result of uninformed, knee-jerk media hype.

most [parents] prefer their precious children not develop ANY habits that might harm their precious buttocks.

In an ideal world, this would be achievable. In the real world, it's fantasy. Kids won't be told that they "can't" do something. In fact, most will go out and darned well do it just to show that they can. It's installed within the rebellious nature of teens.
The best way to stop minors from smoking would be to remove tobacco products from the shelves. But therin lies the rub, and the whole reason why e-cigs are being persecuted whilst tobacco sales are frowned upon, but 'tolerated', ... the enormous tax revenue that tobacco products generate.

 

[ladyraj]

You're right PlanetScribbles...the abstinence parents and society preach do not work but that doesn't alter their stance and agreed upon efforts. Call it Club Pink Elephant...the concensus is to not talk about it and hope it goes away. Some work to supply pretty curtains to block the view of the "undesired" presence or dress it up in more palatable attire....and it works, for some.

Removing tobacco products from the shelves is a tactic I could never agree with. Business owners have a right to arrange their wares any way they choose. If the sight of a product is so overwhelming that it overcomes individual restraint or willpower...the problem lies with the individual.

If I were to remove all females from my Grandson's view...he would still find a way to possibly impregnate one. Better to teach him of choices and consequences rather than pretend boys don't get the urge to dip their sticks.

 

[ladyraj]

Respectfully, when e-cigs generate a billion or more of sales in this Country...the tax aspect might apply. Until then, the charitable alphabet groups with their lobby efforts are the current enemy in my opinion. If e-cigs can generate taxes to aid our ailing economy...the legislators will be more than willing to overcome the lobby influence. If e-cigs means jobs...and lots of them, those suppliers/manufacturers will meet very little resistance.

These alphabet groups could care less if vaping is safer because the act of simulated smoking is too close to actual smoking for their comfort. It is the act of smoking they want to make abnormal.

The big tobacco companies were the first to read the handwriting on the wall and each had put their own version of an e-cig on the market....it didn't sell. Why, because the need for an alternative wasn't that great until more and more bans and regulation were enacted across this land. Vaporers are now relegated to the smoking population band from whence they came. There is no escape from Nanny. 8-o

 

[gooney0]

TaketheRedPill,

Great post (last page). I agree and don't think I could add to it.

-Gooney0

 

[PlanetScribbles]

I often ask, if you used PVs to get off analogs, what will you use to get off PVs?

TaketheRedPill,

Great post (last page). I agree and don't think I could add to it.

-Gooney0

Agree with that Gooney0. The chicken and egg scenario made me chuckle, but unfortunately PM doesn't make cigarettes in 0mg, 2mg, 4mg, 6mg etc, varieties. We vapers get that luxury, and the ability to ween ourselves off nic one step at a time

 

[mcl5000]

I don't think that e-cig kiosks should be banned in malls, but I do think that handing out samples to random people walking by should be.

I'll refer to my previous "7-11 guy doesn't smoke cigarettes and give out samples" example. It doesn't matter what the motive is behind an e-cig kiosk worker having people try his product. All that matters is that you don't give out samples of an addictive drug in the middle of the mall. If the worker wants to demo it himself, that's fine I guess, but having other people try it shouldn't be allowed.

This is a better example, I guess. Pretend I started up my own chewing tobacco company. I decide that selling it in malls is a good way to make money. I set up a stand right next to SE. As people walk by, I shove some dip in their lower lip.

This is EXACTLY the same as someone at a kiosk giving out samples of their e-cig, but it seems much worse...right? Why?

They're both addictive. They're both legal to be purchased by people over 18. I think most e-cig users have some idea that vaping is the resurrection of Christ, when in reality, most people think it's just as bad a habit as smoking cigarettes or dipping.

Don't get me wrong; I think vaping is amazing. It's just not something that can be treated differently than other age-controlled drugs, whether we think it's great or not.

 

[Safira]

OK feel free to bash the hell out of me but I have to give a different opinion. It sounds like they gave the teens zero nic right? I really don't want to see kids vaping these things, or smoking analogs at all, but at what age did most of us start smoking anyway.

I'm not trying to say it's OK, but it might be a way for them to be social and not be addicted to nicotine. Kind of like the kid who doesn't really drink, he'll just hold the beer in his hand at a party and not drink it. (I was that kid, so we are out there) Have we been able to solve the teen drinking problem? No, but it's a suggestion I would give my kids when they go off to college and don't know how to handle weird situations like that.

My nephew doesn't smoke at all. When he was 16 he'd go with his father and "smoke" a cigar. I never really saw him taking a good hit like my brother, it was just a way for them to get together and talk about the day. He'd sit and talk with his father about stuff, the thing would go out. He'd re-light it cough up a storm and roll it around in his hands as he'd be talking about what was going on in his life.

I'm just saying 10 yrs from now if these things get a chance to take off, would you rather have your 16 yr old smoke cigs, or "herbs" or just vape some flavored zero nic and no one around them would know the difference. (or even care)

In a perfect world our perfect little angels wouldn't have to deal with these kinds of social situations, but they do and sometimes you need to learn how to go with the flow.

 

[Mac]

We knew it would happen sooner or later. Frankly, I was surprised when a 13 year old started participating on this very forum. But it is definitely bad when a news agency sends minors on an undercover sting operation to bust a PV kiosk:

E-Cigarettes Under Fire - NBC Action News KSHB-TV 41

Excerpts:
"Despite ECA goals, we were clearly told it's a healthy alternative at Independence Center and Oak Park Mall kiosks by companies that are not part of the ECA membership.

At Smoke51, the owner calls it a "healthy alternative."

His salesman says, "It's not harmful to you."

The salesman went on to say, "You're getting a cigarette with all the pros and not the cons. It saves your life and it saves your health."

In Independence Center, the flavors were pushed to a minor we sent to the kiosk.

"Most girls really like it again my wife absolutely loves the blueberry. It gives you Vitamin D and it gives you the exact same thing you get out of a regular cigarette the only difference it's not killing you," the salesman said at Smoking Everywhere."

More:
John Wickwire says his 17-year-old son came home from the mall and talked all about electronic cigarettes. John says his son was with a group of teens who were all under age 18 except for one.

"He came home all excited, and I was like, freaked, and I think he was surprised by how I reacted.

Last excerpt:
"However, when our minor and intern went to his kiosk, they were offered an e-cigarette with no nicotine.

Our intern asked, "So what's the point of that?"

The salesman answered, "An oral fixation. It just feels like a cigarette if you want to try the zero one I'll let you try it."

A few seconds later, our minor was puffing away on a product that looked like a cigarette but supposedly has no nicotine."
--------------------------------

I understand the concept that if kids are going to smoke...vaping is safer. I understand that some venders say stupid things (example-blueberry eliquid gives vitamin D). I understand that teens look older than their age.

I understand, but the majority of nonsmoking/nonvaping society we live in, do not.

Smoke51 and Se are two very different companies with two completely different products. I am confused by your post.

And whoever said "It saves your life" ought to be slapped.

 

[tissan88]

I think that some sort of ID should at least be presented when trying an e cig in a kiosk !!
I know that in our society , any sort of press is considered good; But we cannot afford the bad press right now.

 

[ECGuy]

"Most girls really like it again my wife absolutely loves the blueberry. It gives you Vitamin D and it gives you the exact same thing you get out of a regular cigarette the only difference it's not killing you," the salesman said at Smoking Everywhere."

And I was so hoping I was wrong when i saw this and thought "Let me guess: smoking everywhere".

Are those guys just out to torpedo the whole industry? They are really going to be single handedly responsible for the downfall of vaping. When a kid walks up to your kiosk you tell him "get lost kid, you don't want to start smoking anything." ARGGGG

DEG in the juice, Credit Card fraud, non delivery complaints, Salesmen who insult Gov officials in proceedings, caught on tape selling to kids...... What's next? Why is it always Smoking Everywhere that's mentioned in these cases?

I certainly don't agree with their marketing strategies nor claims, however, the kiosk's are NOT employee's of those companies.

Now, you do have a point there. I was thinking the same thing after I posted my first rev of this. I know exactly where the kids can go in my neighborhood to buy PM's products.

But here's the kicker, for Big Tobacco and for the E-Cig industry. Where's the press release saying
"Company announced today that their distributor agreement with Mall Kiosk has been revoked and instantly demanded that all their products be returned and that all marketing with their name and trademarks instantly cease. "we take this very seriously and will not tolerate any of our distributors selling to minors, said Company spokesman".

When I see that press release, my opinions on this particular company might change. But i'm not going to hold my breath.

Now is not the time to cry "But they don't work for us, not our fault", It's the time to say "we will not stand for this" PERIOD. Or else the "won't someone save the children" crowd will certainly enjoy all the great ammo we just parachuted into their camp to shoot us with.


EDIT: Ok, after reading the whole article, I do see that the Smoking Everywhere employee did ultimately refuse to let the kid try it for fear he might get fired. I have to give them credit for that. I'd rather see him say "get lost kid, these are not for you" than "I have kids to support and they'd get mad at me", but in the end he refused and perhaps the end result is most important.

 

[martha1014]

I know a lot of you have bought cigarettes where you ask for them and when the cashier enters the price it comes up as asked them for an age. The cashier can over ride this but it calls this to her attention. If all stores have this feature it would certainly decrease sales to minors.

I don't think ecigs should be advertised or sold in malls. Cigarettes are not sold this way. They should be behind counters just as cigarettes are. I found in all of the Pilots and Kangaroo stores ecigs are behind the counter and have the same regulations as cigarettes..

Times have definitely changed over the years. When I was young our parents sent us in the store to purchase their cigarettes. I started smoking on the weekends when I was 16 and they were sold freely.
I don't have the statistics on this but there has to be fewer minors today who smoke than when I was younger.

Store ownes don't deliberatily sell cigarettes to minors. It is not worth the price they would have to pay when fined. I think it is absent minded employees or those who just don't care.

 

[martha1014]

Cigarettes and inhalation of nicotine is a disgusting habit and something I wish I have never started. Ecigs or cigarettes should not be adverstised for any reason. I mean I loved the Marlboro Man when I was younger and thought this was cool. There were advertisement all over the TV, newspaper, billboards and almost all media outlets when I was young.I look back at this and see how wrong it was.

 

[Brewster 59]

This is an complete witch hunt. How many AM/PM markets have been caught in stings? Do they talk about banning tob? How many places have been caught in a sting selling Alch are they talking about banning that? This is all about tax revenues and control. Even if we found a way to 100% percent make it impossible for a minor to purchase this prod the nannys would just find a different arguement of why this should banned.

 

[ECGuy]

Either lazy journalism or a concerted PR stunt, but the same exact story, same guy, same voice overs almost, this time in AZ. Both stations are owned by Scripps, so it could just be lazy journalism. Or it could be drug companies pressuring the media to run the same story over and over and over again.

Keep your eyes out, i'm afraid this won't be the last we see of this story.

ABC15 and John Wickwire Catch Another Mall Kiosk Selling E-cigs to Children | Electronic Cigarette Blog - Dec 7 09

 

[oldlady]

This is totally a witch hunt organized to push the regulation of the e-cig as an emerging technology.

The reason we will see this story everywhere is because journalists are developing a herd mentality. The newspapers and broadcast agencies are so underpowered and underfunded, they literally have no time or incentive to double-check facts and sources. They simply repeat whatever is "fed" to them.

If a human-interest story makes a big, sensationalist splash in one market, it will be repeated everywhere.

This is why we no longer get real news in this country.

 

[sMuCk_fOg]

A state of ninnys and nannys.
By the time I turned 12 years old I had already smoked both Cigarettes
(Camel Non filtered) and had smoked Marijuana and Hashish.
I had also tasted Whiskey and beer. AND I rode around in the car...
Get this...with NO seatbelt. We also played tackle football...
with NO helmets...OR pads! I have pictures of me stradling an open fire pit at at the beach at the age of 14 with my jeans on fire, I just put them out with beach sand,no big.

When I was a a teenager we raced Muscle cars down the street in our neighborhood every day...no one ever got hurt,much less killed.
I also rode around in the BACK of an open pick up truck! WOW!
Surely I must be dead by now,or at very least have been sent to prison.
But NO, I'm now 51 years old,Healthy as an OX,
(evn having smoked Marlboro Cigarettes for 40 years)
I've never spent a day in jail, I have worked for the same company
for 27 years and haven't called in sick in the past 11 years.
I've also been Married to the same woman for 25 years.
Chilax America,
Let people LIVE their lives.

 

[McCordRM]

Another stupid move by SE. Worthless company ruining things for everybody.

There is absolutely NO reason for these kiosks to be allowed in malls. The dude working the register at 7-11 isn't puffing away on a cigarette telling you to try it, so why do we need clowns pushing e-cigs in malls. People working at grocery stores aren't pouring shots for people to sample as they're walking through the store.

Bottom line - you don't need to give out samples of minor-prohibited products, and things will turn bad if they continue to do so.

Arg. That is exactly the wrong attitude.
"Blame the victim, not the criminal."

You're saying that E-cigs should be outlawed in public because some
...... is breaking the law?? Let's close down ALL the bars because
someone let a minor in. The problem isn't WHERE E-cigs are being sold, the
problem is the guy that handed one to a freaking minor and gave out
false information. ATTACK THE GUY BREAKING THE LAW, not the rest of us.