Mixing by Weight - Are You ??

[zoiDman]

...

Another group was met with a trolling jerk who kept going on about how different VG's weigh different amounts, how ridiculously expensive it is, how inaccurate it is etc, etc... my only response, besides the obvious, was to ask them what their time was worth in $$$... in the end, that topic too was deleted...

..

Here is a Question that will send people like that into Hyperspace.

What would happen if you worked up a Recipe where EVERY Ingredient (the VG, the PG, Flavorings, Sweeteners, the Works) was set to 1g/1ml?

 

[BlkWolfMidnight]

Good afternoon,

I too am new'ish to DIY, but I'll give what info I have on this.

Gram is pretty accurate, as the OP listed you'll register a 1/4 drop of PG or VG on the scale, its volume by weight so it would pick up the lowest that your scale can register. I see issues with this though as it still will not register finite volumes of liquid and if out of calibration will cause issues.

Drops- Inaccurate at best, depends on so many variables that the exact volume of liquid depends on the exact temperature of the liquid and use of the same dropper with the same volume and the same atmospheric conditions (ok, maybe not the same atmospheric conditions). But in reality throw everything in and mostly to chance. This is not a scale ever used by the scientific community for measurement.

% of volume to mL- Most accurate I've found thus far, I can measure .01 mL liquid and some syringes that I could get down to microliter which are .001 of a mL if I choose. This method allows a finite control over the mixture and exact control of what I'm doing.

I'm not saying don't try Grams its just a personal opinion that I'll stick to using mL and finite control of my mixes (makes replication that much easier).

Just a thought

 

[Kable]

I started with syringes, etc... but almost immediately went to weighing. Started with a small scale from Amazon to see if I would like doing it this way and within a week, graduated to this scale:

http://www.tmart.com/300g-x-0.001g-B3003T-Electronic-Balance-Laboratory-Scale-White_p152567.html

I almost cannot believe how easy it makes all of this and especially how quick and repeatable with very few tools and very quick cleanup.

I also cannot believe the negative reaction by some when it comes to weighing. Over on FB, in the DIY groups, they are endlessly talking about syringes and counting drops, etc... but GOD HELP YOU if you suggest that they try weighing... The purpose of those groups being to help people DIY safely, easily and consistently... but weighing? Might as well be a liberal trying to talk to a bunch of tea party folks... or visa versa

I've had a simple suggestion to use a scale deleted from a topic that went on forever about how to calibrate and count drops with the explanation being that 'weighing is too confusing for beginners'... What a load of crap...

Another group was met with a trolling jerk who kept going on about how different VG's weigh different amounts, how ridiculously expensive it is, how inaccurate it is etc, etc... my only response, besides the obvious, was to ask them what their time was worth in $$$... in the end, that topic too was deleted...

So basically, I've decided that if I see someone ask about weighing over there, I will take it off line and PM them... but I'll be damned if I'm going to waste a single key stroke 'helping' in a group that doesn't really want any help, other than to continuously tell people how to eyeball syringes, calibrate drops and not vape with flavors that they buy at Walmart...

Considering just how pleasurable and easy weighing is, I just cannot believe the resistance to it..

That sounds frustrating. Once i got a scale, I never looked back. It doesn't matter to me in the slightest if different ingredients have different densities. All my ratios and percentages are by mass.

 

[Capt.shay]

After a couple weeks and several hundred Ml's of mixing, my syringes have been put away.

I'm sold on weight based mixing.

Eventually, I could see myself investing in a better scale primarily for an AC adapter and the ability to turn off the auto off feature. BUT, with this eight dollar scale from amazon, I never need to buy or wash another syringe.

 

[VapinWolf]

Going to mix my first batch by weight tonight. Hope this works out.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[cbabbman]

That sounds frustrating. Once i got a scale, I never looked back. It doesn't matter to me in the slightest if different ingredients have different densities. All my ratios and percentages are by mass.

frustrating wasn't the right word.. lol

I have my Nic (PG based), PG and VG all set to their stated g/ml based upon their densities. While I could calculate out the individual densities of every flavor I own, I choose not to because I really can't tell the difference between .0xg of anything... and neither can they... and I can guarantee that trying to eyeball syringes or count drops is going to be far more inaccurate than my densities being off by .0xg either way...

The next thing they start pissing about is safety... lol... so eyeballing that syringe full of 100mg/ml Nic is better than my weighing it based on it's actual weight per gram... really?... how much in volume are all those air bubbles? What are people doing with the volume that's in the needle, etc? It's a piss poor excuse made by those who don't like the idea rather than it being because it doesn't work.

I work in a FDA regulated industry where we batch all of our products. Each and every ingredient is weighed and every batch turns out the same. I think I prefer a tried and true method to making my juice over guess work and people relying on syringes that come out of Tractor Supply or through ebay...

regardless, I really don't care how people do this. If syringes and all that goes with it is what you want to do, have at it. Myself? I prefer not ever having to worry about what kind of dropper I am using, what kind of dropper the flavor company put on their bottle or how the flavor shows up at all. I have 4 tools I use. A scale, 2 lab squeeze bottles for PG/VG and a handful of glass droppers for dispensing things without a dropper tip on it. It takes me minutes to make anything and less time to clean up. My juices are the same every single time.

Above all, I enjoy making it this way and that's all that matters.

To BlkWolfMidnight, I use a scale that measures to the .001g so I'm covered there... it doesn't get more finite than that

 

[JulesXsmokr]

I'm still using my original American Weigh scale I started with. I occasionally throw on the calibration weight to check it out, and it keeps passing with flying colors.
The calibration weight must be used occasionally, and it's usually the weight of the stated highest gram amount of the scale.
You definitely need one of these weights.. Cheap scales can lose their ability for accuracy without notice. I'm glad more folks are giving this a go.
I try to buy to buy all my flavors with droppers already on them. I hate cleaning up loose droppers or having to buy, then throw out pipettes.

 

[Zombo]

Eventually, I could see myself investing in a better scale primarily for an AC adapter and the ability to turn off the auto off feature. BUT, with this eight dollar scale from amazon, I never need to buy or wash another syringe.

For me, that feature is priceless because I like working at a relaxed pace. It's a bit expensive, and in fairness, I used a gift card so it was free. But if the price isn't off-putting for you I would highly recommend it. And the AC adapter and 200g calibration weight are nice inclusions. Also comes with a wind shield for people who need to weigh things where it's drafty. And I like the liquid level indicator (maybe all nice scales have these, I dunno).

http://www.amazon.com/My-Weigh-Ibal...=UTF8&qid=1420693703&sr=8-1&keywords=ibalance

I can not believe how much easier it is now. I use disposable pipettes for vials that don't have droppers so I have literally zero clean-up.

 

[AmandaD]

I'm in love with my $15 Horizon scale from Amazon! I have boxes of syringes that are now unused, and 10-recipe concoctions are fast with no clean up. The tare function means that I can be distracted between flavors, because each new one is like starting again. It's taken me close to a year to find weighing vs syringes, and many dollars spent on equipment for measuring.

 

[Visus]

I find only a few flavors really need supreme accuracy.

I find syringes as accurate as needed, its not rocket science but when working those gunking juices even one drop over cruds up an atomizer and I see how by weight would be most accurate in that instance.

Yeah this is a winner for OCD peeps but your using the same amount of syringes/squeeze bulbs if you did it by the meter on their sides unless you only mix one juice..

For doing huge 30-50ml bottles or bigger mixing %'s pg/vg this is awesome I must say... Flavoring gimme a 100cc's hypodermic with needle tip cut off and I betcha my accuracy is on tha money and any over/under is not measurable on any scale under $$$$.

 

[Capt.shay]

I find only a few flavors really need supreme accuracy.

I find syringes as accurate as needed, its not rocket science but when working those gunking juices even one drop over cruds up an atomizer and I see how by weight would be most accurate in that instance.

Yeah this is a winner for OCD peeps but your using the same amount of syringes/squeeze bulbs if you did it by the meter on their sides unless you only mix one juice..

For doing huge 30-50ml bottles or bigger mixing %'s pg/vg this is awesome I must say... Flavoring gimme a 100cc's hypodermic with needle tip cut off and I betcha my accuracy is on tha money and any over/under is not measurable on any scale under $$$$.

A 30-50 ml bottle is just a weeks supply for me and I don't think most people would consider them "huge". But I digress.

It is not just the accuracy. In fact, that is really just pleasant side benefit for me. I have a degree in math and sciences and have been around a lab a lot of my life. I know how to be accurate with lab wear. To me, it is the ease of process and clean up. Let me take you on a quick walk through making a 15ml bottle.

-Turn on scale, place bottle with glass funnel on scale and tare.
-Squeaze/drip appropriate weight of first flavor in to funnel and tare. Repeat per recipe.
-Squeaze/drip appropriate weight of nic and tare
-Squeaze/drip appropriate weight of Pg
-Squeaze/drip appropriate weight of Vg

You now have your juice and it is time to clean up,

-Rinse funnel


The End.

 

[BlkWolfMidnight]

To BlkWolfMidnight, I use a scale that measures to the .001g so I'm covered there... it doesn't get more finite than that

Which scale are you using, anything that specific I've seen isn't in the tens of dollars but rather in the hundreds of dollars.

I use a scale to reuse my brass rimfire rounds (you need it to measure out the gun powder) but even though that's a descent scale it only goes down to .01g, and even this was around 70'ish dollars.

If you can let me know, never said I wouldn't give it a go but I've my doubts unless the weight of the ingredient is known. I guess it wouldn't be too difficult though to figure out since I've got biomedical syringes at my house which are finite accurate.

Thanks for the info, maybe time to embark on another adventure. I love doing side quests but do I get bonus experience

While were on this topic, what good DIY calculators are there for this application that will convert accurately mL to grams and such.

 

[BlkWolfMidnight]

I have posted before,

I'm still curious as to volumetric mixing by weight, I mix 30ml batches at a go from known and tried recipes by percentage. Guess you could call me a student of an old timer who taught me use of syringes and glassware who I'm pretty sure was a mad scientist in his off hours past time.

I also still need to use glassware as I heat and steep my liquids all in one shot, typically I bring them up to 50-52 degrees celcius while mixing at 700-850 rpm in a magnetic mixer. I'm experimenting with a vortex/vibration mixer here soon to see if the results differ or it would even further unify the molecular suspension even more with the additional shake up.

A scale would help though in another side project I'm working on though, will have to look in to that. I personally don't mind doing the whole syringe thing as I've done it for so long now that its second nature. Besides I've got syringes that drop down to .01 mL (had a look at them last night again) and so far no percentage recipe has been that accurate yet that I've found (mine are at home, but then again I've been doing it that way since I started to learn).

I'll roll it about my head a bit, def. advantages in speed though won't deny that. I can see a vast improvement when working with small batches and or singular bottles. Currently half the folks I work with here has me working recipes with a few projects in the pipeline its rare that I'm away from my 50mL beaker for very long.

To speed up the process I batch mix my PG/VG and Nic, in the freezer it goes and a quick few seconds on the vortex mixer after warming up reconstitutes the suspension to useable levels again (heating has already been done to help ease the bonding of the three liquids previously before vacuum sealing and storing). Guess in some respects I can see the increase in speed if your base isn't done, if it is I see minimal advantages in speed, clean up doesn't matter to me as I sanitize my equipment anyways with hot water or pure base 91% alcohol (Only for the plate on the magnetic mixer and the vortex mixer, non-contact equipment only) so throwing a few extra syringes that are broken down isn't much additional trouble.

Just my thoughts on this one, its a personal choice however I'm more then willing to give it a go and see how things shake loose per say.

 

[Kable]

There is a difference between precision and accuracy. I think that similar levels of precision can be achieved measuring by volume or by weight, but it is easier to achieve greater accuracy when measuring by weight. This makes for greater consistency when scaling batch sizes. I also think it is simply easier to mix by weight. That said, I think the variability in personal taste and vaping equipment is likely greater than the variability in accuracy from measuring equipment and techniques. Consistency is more important for an individual than across individuals in terms of measurement. So it doesn't matter as much when following another person's recipe whether you use their percentages/ratios in terms of weight or volume, as much as it matters that you consistently measure the same way.

 

[zoiDman]

There is a difference between precision and accuracy. I think that similar levels of precision can be achieved measuring by volume or by weight, but it is easier to achieve greater accuracy when measuring by weight. This makes for greater consistency when scaling batch sizes. I also think it is simply easier to mix by weight. That said, I think the variability in personal taste and vaping equipment is likely greater than the variability in accuracy from measuring equipment and techniques. Consistency is more important for an individual than across individuals in terms of measurement. So it doesn't matter as much when following another person's recipe whether you use their percentages/ratios in terms of weight or volume, as much as it matters that you consistently measure the same way.

I am Glad you Mentioned this.

Because I think Many People thing these Two Concepts are the Same.

Here is a Nice Graphic depiction I have Posted Many Times over the Years.

 

[BlkWolfMidnight]

Also using the same method is important, this is something I've found a lot with DIY postings, the "How" gets lost in the end translation. I may be able to make it, but not like the original creator because of the "how" was lost in the process.

I guess everyone has their way of doing it, and in that way of doing it perfection was found. It may not be accurate to the thousandth of a gram or to the microliter of measurement but it works and works well.

I'd try this to see how well recipes translate over and if in fact it does effect the taste, if it does then there was something that I was doing that wasn't documented and I need to reinvestigate my methods again in documentation and measurement or find out why.
Just a thought, let me know if I'm on point or way off target with this one.

 

[Kable]

I am Glad you Mentioned this.

Because I think Many People thing these Two Concepts are the Same.

Here is a Nice Graphic depiction I have Posted Many Times over the Years.

I learned the difference on the rifle range in boot camp, so that graphic is very similar to how I was taught, and it's a great way to visualize the difference.

 

[Kable]

Also using the same method is important, this is something I've found a lot with DIY postings, the "How" gets lost in the end translation. I may be able to make it, but not like the original creator because of the "how" was lost in the process.

I guess everyone has their way of doing it, and in that way of doing it perfection was found. It may not be accurate to the thousandth of a gram or to the microliter of measurement but it works and works well.

I'd try this to see how well recipes translate over and if in fact it does effect the taste, if it does then there was something that I was doing that wasn't documented and I need to reinvestigate my methods again in documentation and measurement or find out why.
Just a thought, let me know if I'm on point or way off target with this one.

Part of what I was saying is I don't think that making a recipe the same as someone else matters as much, because what you are vaping it on and your personal preference for taste is going to be different from the recipe's author. I'd probably want to make adjustments to it either way. I just want to be able to recreate the mix that works for me. This is just my opinion on the matter though, and I understand that some people may desire more authenticity in their recreations, in which case mixing the same way or being able to predict and account for discrepancies between methods is more important. Like you said, everyone has their own way of doing things, and the most important thing is finding a way that works for you. It sounds like you have a well established method and changing that may not be beneficial for you. If you have or are going to acquire a scale anyway, it's worth trying, but you may have to make more adjustments than someone with less experience.

ETA: I'm jealous of your heating and magnetic mixing step. I've been considering a magnetic stir plate. What equipment do you have or recommend?

 

[Visus]

Besides I've got syringes that drop down to .01 mL (had a look at them last night again) and so far no percentage recipe has been that accurate yet that I've found (mine are at home, but then again I've been doing it that way since I started to learn).

There are only a few concentrates that really need mixing that much precision. For example Loranns pralines and cream flavor, I had it down to a science when I 1st started diy. I used the drops method 15 drops and everything was fine in a 10ml 50/50 mix drop in 16 drops and all ellh broke loose, it gunked the atomizer and the taste was acrid..

Precision % is indeed a different level of perfection.

The precision pippette's are costly but if I had an e juice store I would use them to flavor and weight to measure the premix nic, pg and vg.
1 drop over for ~xxx bottles is very cost effective.

Alibaba has an ejuice auto mixing, bottling and capping machine for ejuice creation so if was successful woot..
Filling Precision ≤±1%
Automatic E-liquid Filling Machine/e-juice Filling Capping Machine - Buy E-liquid Filling Machine,E-juice Filling Capping Machine,Filling Capping Machine Product on Alibaba.com

E cigs are da kewlness something for everyone to hobby and perfect.

I am still looking for that one ejuice "The One" A few are close but no cigar lol

 

[cbabbman]

Which scale are you using, anything that specific I've seen isn't in the tens of dollars but rather in the hundreds of dollars.

I use a scale to reuse my brass rimfire rounds (you need it to measure out the gun powder) but even though that's a descent scale it only goes down to .01g, and even this was around 70'ish dollars.
....

My scale

http://www.tmart.com/300g-x-0.001g-B...e_p152567.html

$95... dead nuts accurate every time I drop my calibration weight on it. 300g max weight... Since I typically mix 15 or 30ml bottles... sometimes 120's, it's perfect for my uses