My thoughts about sub-ohm and latest VV/VW devices...

[awsum140]

I have a "standard disclaimer" that says I am not an engineer, physicist, chemist or doctor and hold no recognized academic degrees, but I am a fairly "bright" person (at least I think so) and do have an electronics background and all that goes with it. I was having a problem with the idea that the DNA40 can control temperature and allow as much power as you might want. How to achieve that without either exceeding temperature, a product of power, or limiting power to prevent overheating, sounded great in theory, but I really couldn't figure out how it worked in the real world. I guess it really can't and doesn't.

What the DNA40 will do is keep things from getting too hot and keep the coil at "optimal" temperature more of the time, even during the ebb and flow of wicking. I think that is still a major step.

I also agree that large plumes of great tasting vapor can be produced without building a .01 ohm coil. In fact, it is probably way more efficient to use a higher resistance coil, more surface area, and lower current requirement. While the power capacity of a battery is the same, theoretically, under any load, reality is that the internal resistance becomes a larger factor, consumer/waster, of power as the current demand increases.

 

[tj99959]

I have a "standard disclaimer" that says I am not an engineer, physicist, chemist or doctor and hold no recognized academic degrees, but I am a fairly "bright" person (at least I think so) and do have an electronics background and all that goes with it. I was having a problem with the idea that the DNA40 can control temperature and allow as much power as you might want. How to achieve that without either exceeding temperature, a product of power, or limiting power to prevent overheating, sounded great in theory, but I really couldn't figure out how it worked in the real world. I guess it really can't and doesn't.

What the DNA40 will do is keep things from getting too hot and keep the coil at "optimal" temperature more of the time, even during the ebb and flow of wicking. I think that is still a major step.

I also agree that large plumes of great tasting vapor can be produced without building a .01 ohm coil. In fact, it is probably way more efficient to use a higher resistance coil, more surface area, and lower current requirement. While the power capacity of a battery is the same, theoretically, under any load, reality is that the internal resistance becomes a larger factor, consumer/waster, of power as the current demand increases.

The proof will be 'will the DNA40 give you the result that YOU want'. Nothing else really matters.

 

[rusirius]

That's correct. But i see a benefit. The benefit first is that it is telling you that your wicking needs fixing. But also second it gives you dynamic wattage during your drag. This is very important. If you make long drags say 10 seconds. Sometimes a tank say a kayfun starts dry because of some loss in pressure, then liquid starts gushing in. So your coil will give you ascending wattage. This is a great addition because without it I would get a dry hit, put it down do some primer puffs then try again. Now it's more fire and forget.

Wait.... Maybe I missed something.... It does tells you something needs to be fixed? So it has some sort of indication that will tell you it's not able to deliver the power you request? In other words, if I set it for 40 watts, take a drag, then there is going to be some sort of indication or whatever that it had to regulate the power down to avoid exceeding my temperature? If that's the case, then honestly that changes my opinion on these devices a lot... That's honestly my biggest issue with these is that I want to KNOW if my current setup can't for whatever reason take the power I'm trying to feed it... If it's just being covered up and I don't know any better then that's a negative to me... But if it's actually going to tell me "hey, your setup sucks, fix it" then that's completely different.

Your second point is well taken... Except one small issue... I'd think it would be more likely to happen the other way around... If I take a drag off one of my kayfuns it's almost always going to have plenty of juice at the start... if my wicking isn't up to par, maybe screwing the chimney on got something out of place, or blocked a juice channel or whatever, then it's going to dry out at the end of the hit.

Either way, as long as it indicates this in some way, then that does change my opinion a fair bit.

 

[Aal_]

Wait.... Maybe I missed something.... It does tells you something needs to be fixed? So it has some sort of indication that will tell you it's not able to deliver the power you request? In other words, if I set it for 40 watts, take a drag, then there is going to be some sort of indication or whatever that it had to regulate the power down to avoid exceeding my temperature? If that's the case, then honestly that changes my opinion on these devices a lot... That's honestly my biggest issue with these is that I want to KNOW if my current setup can't for whatever reason take the power I'm trying to feed it... If it's just being covered up and I don't know any better then that's a negative to me... But if it's actually going to tell me "hey, your setup sucks, fix it" then that's completely different.

Your second point is well taken... Except one small issue... I'd think it would be more likely to happen the other way around... If I take a drag off one of my kayfuns it's almost always going to have plenty of juice at the start... if my wicking isn't up to par, maybe screwing the chimney on got something out of place, or blocked a juice channel or whatever, then it's going to dry out at the end of the hit.

Either way, as long as it indicates this in some way, then that does change my opinion a fair bit.

First point yes you can see live how your watts are behaving during the drag. You don't see the temperature but the dna always jumps the watts as soon as you push the button to reach the temp you want (+/- 10 degrees according to brandon) and then it tries to keep it. So meaningless to see the temp live because it is always accurate to 10 degrees. You see the watts. If you notice you set to 40 and your screen always shows 8 then you have a huge wicking problem.

Second point it depends what you're using. Whatever happens you can be sure it will either starts low and go up or starts up or go low. That was just an example.

 

[Aal_]

I have a "standard disclaimer" that says I am not an engineer, physicist, chemist or doctor and hold no recognized academic degrees, but I am a fairly "bright" person (at least I think so) and do have an electronics background and all that goes with it. I was having a problem with the idea that the DNA40 can control temperature and allow as much power as you might want. How to achieve that without either exceeding temperature, a product of power, or limiting power to prevent overheating, sounded great in theory, but I really couldn't figure out how it worked in the real world. I guess it really can't and doesn't.

It can easily achieve without limiting power. Put it 40 watts. Flood your atomizer and see it performing at 40 watts for a good time. When there is constant liquid going to the coil, the volume if liquid decides how high you can go in watts.

 

[skoony]

The temperature created on a coil at ANY resistance (provided it is supplied enough power to reach the boiling point of the juice) is going to be EXACTLY that... The boiling temperature of the juice... It's not going to reach a temperature higher than that, PROVIDED it is kept saturated with juice. It's only when the coil is allowed to dry out that it's temperature can raise above that point.

this is what has me confused.
you don't have to boil the juice first.
in cigalikes roughly 180 degrees F will produce vapor.
there is water in PG and VG.(otherwise it would be paste)
through the production process it gets bonded to other molecules.
when heat is applied some of the water breaks these bonds and
produces vapor and eventually steam.(remember steam is invisible)
what we are actually seeing when we vape is water vapor.
that's why when i use my dark brown juice the vapor is still white.
these new devices are producing temperatures of 160 degrees C or more
in the center of the wick with 224 degree C coil temps.
so how does that relate to your theory and at these higher
temps whats happening to the juice.
regards
mike

 

[rusirius]

this is what has me confused.
you don't have to boil the juice first.
in cigalikes roughly 180 degrees F will produce vapor.
there is water in PG and VG.(otherwise it would be paste)
through the production process it gets bonded to other molecules.
when heat is applied some of the water breaks these bonds and
produces vapor and eventually steam.(remember steam is invisible)
what we are actually seeing when we vape is water vapor.
that's why when i use my dark brown juice the vapor is still white.
these new devices are producing temperatures of 160 degrees C or more
in the center of the wick with 224 degree C coil temps.
so how does that relate to your theory and at these higher
temps whats happening to the juice.
regards
mike

I think your confusion comes in thinking that it's water that's causing this vapor. Your statement about "when we vape is water vapor" just isn't true. There's been a lot of statements to that effect in the past. I believe partially to try to justify how much "safer" vaping is than smoking. But it's just not based on fact.

Is there water in PG and VG? Yes, but VERY little... If I'm using 99.8% pure PG then that leaves less than .2% that can be water.

You're thinking that just because something is a liquid that it must contain water. but that's not true. Mercury for example is a metal, which is liquid at room temperature. It too can be boiled to create vapor, but it does not contain water. Just because a substance is liquid in form does not automatically mean it contains water.

Are you familiar with distilling alcohol? Think of that process... A "mash" is create which contains solids as well as water and alcohol. Now how do we create pure alcohol from that? We apply heat.... It doesn't matter how much heat... That only changes the speed at which the distilling process occurs.

What happens is first the mash comes up to temperature (172 degrees if memory serves me) and then will stay there. Because any excess heat is removed as the ethanol turns to vapor. Once most of the ethanol is boiled off, the temperature will begin to increase... Up to 212 degrees, at which point now the water (there will always be small amounts of water in the ethanol because it's an azeotrope but that's a whole different subject.) will begin to boil... Now we are forming STEAM... which is just water vapor... This is why a moonshiner only wants the "middle" part of the distillation... The "head" or first parts contain methanol and other nasties that boil off first... The last part contains water... It's the middle that has all the ethanol...

Anyway, the point is, "when heat is applied some of the water breaks these bonds and produces vapor and eventually steam" just isn't true... It's not how it works. I know we had agreed to disagree, LOL, but you brought it up. When PG and VG are heated by the coil they produce VG and PG vapor... Just as distilling moonshine creates alcohol vapor... If in fact what you said were true, then moonshiners would never be able to get the water out of their mash... The whole process works because alcohol has a lower boiling point than water, which means they can boil it off first BEFORE the water starts to boil and turn to vapor. By condensing the alcohol vapor back into alcohol they get their finished product.

 

[skoony]

I think your confusion comes in thinking that it's water that's causing this vapor. Your statement about "when we vape is water vapor" just isn't true. There's been a lot of statements to that effect in the past. I believe partially to try to justify how much "safer" vaping is than smoking. But it's just not based on fact.

Is there water in PG and VG? Yes, but VERY little... If I'm using 99.8% pure PG then that leaves less than .2% that can be water.

You're thinking that just because something is a liquid that it must contain water. but that's not true. Mercury for example is a metal, which is liquid at room temperature. It too can be boiled to create vapor, but it does not contain water. Just because a substance is liquid in form does not automatically mean it contains water.

Are you familiar with distilling alcohol? Think of that process... A "mash" is create which contains solids as well as water and alcohol. Now how do we create pure alcohol from that? We apply heat.... It doesn't matter how much heat... That only changes the speed at which the distilling process occurs.

What happens is first the mash comes up to temperature (172 degrees if memory serves me) and then will stay there. Because any excess heat is removed as the ethanol turns to vapor. Once most of the ethanol is boiled off, the temperature will begin to increase... Up to 212 degrees, at which point now the water (there will always be small amounts of water in the ethanol because it's an azeotrope but that's a whole different subject.) will begin to boil... Now we are forming STEAM... which is just water vapor... This is why a moonshiner only wants the "middle" part of the distillation... The "head" or first parts contain methanol and other nasties that boil off first... The last part contains water... It's the middle that has all the ethanol...

Anyway, the point is, "when heat is applied some of the water breaks these bonds and produces vapor and eventually steam" just isn't true... It's not how it works. I know we had agreed to disagree, LOL, but you brought it up. When PG and VG are heated by the coil they produce VG and PG vapor... Just as distilling moonshine creates alcohol vapor... If in fact what you said were true, then moonshiners would never be able to get the water out of their mash... The whole process works because alcohol has a lower boiling point than water, which means they can boil it off first BEFORE the water starts to boil and turn to vapor. By condensing the alcohol vapor back into alcohol they get their finished product.

steam is water in its gassiest form.steam is invisible.
vapor is very tiny visible water droplets.(think fog)
when steam(invisible) loses temperature below boiling it
it condenses into water droplets.(visible)
conversely when water heats up before it turns to steam it produces vapor.

a lot of water is used in the production of PG and some less in VG.
a good amount of water becomes bonded to other molecules creating
more complex molecules. hence 98% pure is accurate.
however once heating starts a lot of the water molecules will break
their bonds from the more complex molecules creating first vapor,
then steam,then back to vapor.
so what we actually can see is the water vapor. the other stuff is there,
we just can't see it. if we could see it my vapor should be dark brown.
the process works both ways. you do not have to boil it to get vapor.
you can if you like but its not necessary.
VG gives off better vapor because it makes the vapor less opaque than PG.
can't recall but i think VG may be thicker than PG.

remember water boils at 212 degrees F. that's a lot lower than PG or VG.
so heat induced chemical reactions will affect the water bonded to other molecules first.

regards
mike

 

[rusirius]

steam is water in its gassiest form.steam is invisible.
vapor is very tiny visible water droplets.(think fog)
when steam(invisible) loses temperature below boiling it
it condenses into water droplets.(visible)
conversely when water heats up before it turns to steam it produces vapor.

a lot of water is used in the production of PG and some less in VG.
a good amount of water becomes bonded to other molecules creating
more complex molecules. hence 98% pure is accurate.
however once heating starts a lot of the water molecules will break
their bonds from the more complex molecules creating first vapor,
then steam,then back to vapor.
so what we actually can see is the water vapor. the other stuff is there,
we just can't see it. if we could see it my vapor should be dark brown.
the process works both ways. you do not have to boil it to get vapor.
you can if you like but its not necessary.
VG gives off better vapor because it makes the vapor less opaque than PG.
can't recall but i think VG may be thicker than PG.

remember water boils at 212 degrees F. that's a lot lower than PG or VG.
so chemical reactions will affect the water bonded to other molecules first.

regards
mike

I really don't mean to be argumentative here, but you just don't seem to understand the processes at work here. I'm not saying this to be prudish, but please do do some research on vapor and exactly what it is.

Yes, steam is water in a gaseous phase. Absolutely... meaning that it too is vapor... Because vapor is just that... a substance in a gaseous phase. It has NOTHING to do with being visible. ANY vapor is invisible. Vapor is NOT defined by being visible or not. When you see a "cloud" of any vapor, it's only because that vapor is condensing back into liquid droplets. It's those droplets that are now visible.

As water evaporates off the ocean it forms steam... Yes, it's water vapor, but also steam... because again, the pure definition of steam simple means water vapor... or the vapor that is formed when water turns to a gaseous state. That steam rises in the air and is cooled.... As it does so it begins to condense again... Making small water droplets... It's these droplets that are visible and therefore become clouds.

Again, and I can't stress this enough... visibility has NOTHING to do with rather something is a vapor, or steam or anything... Visibility is only determined by how much vapor has condensed back into liquid... these droplets of liquid are suspended in air and are visible... Vapor is NOT visible... in fact, once it becomes visible it means it has condensed and is no longer vapor...

Ever busted an old mercury vapor fluorescent light? How much "vapor" did you see? None... Because it's not visible...

The ONLY thing that makes a vapor visible is the fact that it will have a different refractive index, meaning it will bend light differently so distort objects behind it. This is the only way "vapor" can be seen. Again it all comes down to what I said earlier. You are confused on the definitions of steam, vapor and liquid. Again, vapor is NOT the visible water droplets... Vapor is the gaseous form of any substance... droplets be them water or ANY other liquid are just that, droplets of liquid... They are NO LONGER VAPOR... I know I'm repeating myself, but I just can't stress this point enough.

And water can not produce vapor before it turns to steam... The MOMENT water turns into vapor it is steam... Again, pure definition states that steam is just water vapor.

I don't want to go into chemistry here (and I'll be honest that's not my strong point) but regardless of rather water is used in the production of PG or VG it doesn't make any difference... When the chemical structure is changed it's changed.

But your statement that heating will "break the bonds of the water molecules creating vapor" just isn't true... One the PG is formed, even if water is used as a catalyst (I'm not so sure that it is) once PG is formed there are no water molecules there. Again chemistry isn't my strong point so I won't even try to explain extensively, but when substances react to create new substances it's not like the molecules of these substances stay in their perfect structure and just attach to each other... Not generally speaking... They react to form NEW molecules...

And of course your vapor won't be dark brown... Why? Because of exactly what I mentioned earlier about the distilling process... Think about this for a minute...

If I take a pot of water and color it with green food coloring... Then I run that green water through a still what am I doing? I'm boiling the water to form vapor... which then goes into a tube where it's cooled... that vapor then condenses and forms back into water which comes out the other end.... Is the water that comes out the other end green? Of course not! That's the whole point of the distilling process... The pigments in the dye are going to be left behind... Along with anything else that has a boiling point higher than water! What comes out the other side is pure water... plain and simple... (again aside from anything with a boiling point lower than water itself...)

VG gives off better vapor than PG because it makes it less opaque? I'm not sure I follow you there... I swore I wasn't going to get into this, LOL, but here goes anyway...

An azeotrope is when two or more substances form a bond that cannot be separated by distilling... So in my earlier example, water and ethanol form an azeotrope at 95% (roughly if memory serves me). This means you can never distill ethanol to be higher that 95% pure... Because when two or more substances form an azeotrope, they "change" the boiling point of the two or more substances... It's kinda like they form one new substance that has a different boiling point.

PG and VG form an azeotrope that has a different boiling point than either one of them individually. If they didn't, then these mixes wouldn't work as you would just get one of the substances vaporizing and leaving the other behind to gunk up the coil.

But... Because VG has a higher boiling point than PG, the more VG in the mixture the higher the overall boiling point of the VG and PG become. When this mixture is vaporized, it immediately starts to cool... which means it also starts to condense....

Now remember... it's this condensation that we "see"... NOT the vapor....

So since more VG raises the boiling point, that means that it condenses much quicker.... So the more VG we put in our juice, the faster it condenses... which means the more "clouds" we can see... There's more to it than that... but that's the easiest way I can explain it.

 

[ElConquistador]

First of all, after wading through this entire thread, I would like to say the original post was very well done and made perfect sense. I totally agree with the premise.

I'm now thinking about this DNA 40 temp control thing. I seems to me that they have entered another variable (temperature) into their equation, which you can fix at your desired level (400 degrees or whatever). So it seems to me that now you can just set your wattage to the maximum 40W and forget it, relying on the chip to be the "cruise control". Much like setting a VV mod to 10W and forget it because the chip will regulate the voltage to match 10W to whatever the resistance is, only better. The more I think about it, this is really a brilliant way to handle things, because the regulation is finally focused on the right thing, which is keeping the coil at the optimum temperature.

I don't really have a lot of dry hit problems, so I guess I'm not overheating/under-wicking my coils. But I guess I never really know if I'm fine-tuned, maybe I've yet to experience the perfect vape, I could be a little too hot or a little too cold every time I fire my mods. Sounds like if a person could hit the proper temperature consistently, their vape could improve pretty dramatically.

 

[Rossum]

Now remember... it's this condensation that we "see"... NOT the vapor....

I take a small exception to this. It's indeed droplets that we see, not vapor (which is an effectively invisible gas). However, not all of those droplets are necessarily formed by condensation. When a liquid boils, bubbles form. As those bubbles burst at the surface, small droplets of liquid can be carried into the vapor stream, without having become vapor first and then having recondensed.

 

[Rossum]

So it seems to me that now you can just set your wattage to the maximum 40W and forget it, relying on the chip to be the "cruise control". Much like setting a VV mod to 10W and forget it because the chip will regulate the voltage to match 10W to whatever the resistance is, only better. The more I think about it, this is really a brilliant way to handle things, because the regulation is finally focused on the right thing, which is keeping the coil at the optimum temperature.

VW was like a traditional cruise control; you set a speed and your car goes that speed, but it will still happily crash into the car in front of you.

Temperature control is like adaptive cruise control. You set a speed, but if there's a car in front of you that's going slower than the speed you've set, your car will slow down to match that car's speed.

 

[rusirius]

I take a small exception to this. It's indeed droplets that we see, not vapor (which is an effectively invisible gas). However, not all of those droplets are necessarily formed by condensation. When a liquid boils, bubbles form. As those bubbles burst at the surface, small droplets of liquid can be carried into the vapor stream, without having become vapor first and then having recondensed.

Absolutely true. I just didn't want to add any more complexity to it than I already was.

 

[WharfRat1976]

This is such a great thread and thanks to RuSerious for taking the time to get it going and his and everyone's responses. Another dumb novice question. Does the Nickel 200 act like a governer? What are it's conductivity properties in regulating coil temperature?

 

[spookyluke]

Watched the 1hour pbusardo dna40 vid. Non resistance wire coils .05ohm? Temp safety. Next level.

 

[rusirius]

This is such a great thread and thanks to RuSerious for taking the time to get it going and his and everyone's responses. Another dumb novice question. Does the Nickel 200 act like a governer? What are it's conductivity properties in regulating coil temperature?

Let me preface this by saying I have NO IDEA what I'm talking about in regards to this device. LOL... I haven't studied it and not even sure what the specifications are. So what I'm about to say is purely a guess, so take it for what it is.

I suspect the reason they are using NI200 is because of it's properties. I'm guessing that it has a pretty linear increase in resistance as it's temperature increases regardless of it's initial resistance, wire gauge, etc. In other words, rather it's 32g or 24g a given increase in it's resistance (x) equals a given increase in temperature (y). So that ratio of x to y is linear and applies across the board no matter what. If that's the case (and again, this is speculation at best, but the only thing that I can think of that makes sense) then y can easily be calculated from y as long as you know the ambiant temperature.

So no, not a governor really, but rather a way to measure the actual average temperature of the metal between the two post holes. So when the button is first pressed, it can immediately dump full power (or probably the power you've set) to the coil and then monitor the resistance. As the resistance increases (with temperature) it can "monitor" for a certain resistance, which is knows equates to the temperature you've set as your limit. Once the measured resistance reaches that point it will begin dropping that power to maintain that resistance (which therefore maintains that temperature). As it removes power, the temperature drops (very very slightly) and resistance falls, which in turn is picked up and so more power is applied. This all assuming the set power results in a temperature that reaches your set temperature "limit".

*Edit* I just looked it up to find out... It looks like nickel has a very high temperature coefficient of resistance compared to lots of other metals... In other words, it's resistance changes the most with variances in temperature... So that's undoubtedly why they chose it...

 

[qorax]

VW was like a traditional cruise control; you set a speed and your car goes that speed, but it will still happily crash into the car in front of you.

Temperature control is like adaptive cruise control. You set a speed, but if there's a car in front of you that's going slower than the speed you've set, your car will slow down to match that car's speed.

^That's Priceless

 

[Smann245]

You make me laugh. Please review how dc dc converters work. What you said applies to mechanicals only. With a vw vv device resistance does not affect anything related to how much current is withdrawn from the battery. Zero effect. Not even part of the formula.

Resistance and watt setting determines the voltage output of the converter. So any voltage output draws the same current? Ok.

 

[Aal_]

Resistance and watt setting determines the voltage output of the converter. So any voltage output draws the same current? Ok.

Resistance and watt setting determines the output voltage, correct. Watt setting and BATTERY VOLTAGE determine current withdrawn from battery. So to answer your question, IF you have same watt setting, any voltage output draws the same current from the battery. Yes.

 

[rhelton]

Conspiracy!

I know lol

edit

Remember I said it first