My thoughts about sub-ohm and latest VV/VW devices...

[dr g]

I dont really know what the truth is or facts about this new board. What I do know is what was presented in the Busardo video was someone is testing juice being vaporized at different temps, the results will come from a lab and presented to the FDA. With those findings there will be regulation of vaping as we know it.

And guess what, Evolv has the patent and the device to smoooch over the FDA and we all be stuck using their products in one way or another. Whether its their board, or someone else pays royalty's to use their technology in their own device.

It wont affect all of us, as some of us mod, or know someone who does. But you know I didnt like what was said and the way it was presented. And I know I dont have to buy one if I dont like it.

Pretty tinfoil hatty but the industry could see some frightening developments still to come. In the end we may well be stuck with Evolv technology, and we'll be happy it's theirs and not BT's.

The revelation (to me, anyway) of the DNA 40 chip is the concept of uncoupling of power (wattage, volume) and temperature (flavor, safety). You can keep your high wattage (clouds) and lower the temperature at the same time to a safe or simply preferable level. That is a completely new phenomenon. High wattage vaping will not require high temperatures any more--no more burning and scorching and, potentially dangerous, chemicals being formed in the proces . The OP didn't mention that at all...

If I'm dead wrong, somebody please shoot me. It's late.

You are on the right track here. There is still some synergy between wattage and temperature but in general it is something different than we have ever seen before.

 

[ukeman]

Yes on the sub-ohm coils ukeman. However I think we need to forget some of what we know about how sub-ohm coils behave in general because of the addition of temperature control in this system. I don't know much about it and have not used it myself, but from what has been said so far it works very well. It makes sense to me as far as I understand it, but it's very early times still

Same goes for thinner wire. I know that using thicker wire for a given resistance gives me more coil surface area and mass, but again the behavior of this system using temperature control is I think going to be different than what happens in my mech mod.

For sure, sub-ohm coils do not imply a high power vape or cloud chasing once temperature control is in the picture.

It may be different and out of the ordinary but these things are going on sale, I mean devices with the dna40 in them in a couple days literally, and I am jonesing to see some coils with nr wire .16 to 1 ohms soon. Not that I'm sure which device will be best for me, but I've never been one to wait.

better head over to the youtubes.

 

[K_Tech]

The revelation (to me, anyway) of the DNA 40 chip is the concept of uncoupling of power (wattage, volume) and temperature (flavor, safety). You can keep your high wattage (clouds) and lower the temperature at the same time to a safe or simply preferable level. That is a completely new phenomenon. High wattage vaping will not require high temperatures any more--no more burning and scorching and, potentially dangerous, chemicals being formed in the proces . The OP didn't mention that at all...

If I'm dead wrong, somebody please shoot me. It's late.

Nope, if I understand the explanation correctly, you're pretty spot on.

Think of temperature as speed, and power as the gas flow to the engine.

Set the cruise control at 70mph (400 degrees) and as you go up and down hills (resistance of the coil changing as the temperature changes) the cruise control will vary the gas to the engine to make sure that it's creating the right amount of power (watts) to maintain your speed (temperature).

I really hope that makes sense...?

 

[Katya]

Nope, if I understand the explanation correctly, you're pretty spot on.

Think of temperature as speed, and power as the gas flow to the engine.

Set the cruise control at 70mph (400 degrees) and as you go up and down hills (resistance of the coil changing as the temperature changes) the cruise control will vary the gas to the engine to make sure that it's creating the right amount of power (watts) to maintain your speed (temperature).

I really hope that makes sense...?

Actually, it makes a lot of sense! Thanks, K_Tech!

I never get a chance to use my cruise control on California freeways... But I know how it works!

 

[Ryedan]

I dont really know what the truth is or facts about this new board. What I do know is what was presented in the Busardo video was someone is testing juice being vaporized at different temps, the results will come from a lab and presented to the FDA. With those findings there will be regulation of vaping as we know it.

Just wanted to repeat that one more time:

"What I do know is what was presented in the Busardo video was someone is testing juice being vaporized at different temps, the results will come from a lab and presented to the FDA. With those findings there will be regulation of vaping as we know it."

OK, now I knew all this new stuff was going to be hard for some people to get a handle on and I said as much in an earlier post, but the possibility of this conclusion (With those findings there will be regulation of vaping as we know it) never entered my mind.

I could ask how you know this rhelton, but instead I chose to dry burn my Cyclone and re-wick it. I also added a bit of nic to my juice and it is fine

Vape on bro

 

[Katya]

Just wanted to repeat that one more time:

"What I do know is what was presented in the Busardo video was someone is testing juice being vaporized at different temps, the results will come from a lab and presented to the FDA. With those findings there will be regulation of vaping as we know it."
Vape on bro

I'll help you, Ryedan!

Dr. Farsalinos is currently conducting a study that is testing temperature of evaporation, liquid consumption and vapor analysis in realistic conditions. The results of his study will be published, just like his previous studies, and not delivered to the FDA.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/e-cigarette-research-temperature-of-evaporation

He's apparently using Imeo's V.I.R, another temperature controlling device.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJLjg2-on2M

It's all good.

Oh yes, we'll have regulations alright. But it has nothing to do with Brandon, the Darwin, Phil or Dr. Farsalinos.

 

[Ryedan]

I'll help you, Ryedan!

Dr. Farsalinos is currently conducting a study that is testing temperature of evaporation, liquid consumption and vapor analysis in realistic conditions. The results of his study will be published, just like his previous studies, and not delivered to the FDA.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/e-cigarette-research-temperature-of-evaporation

He's apparently using Imeo's V.I.R, another temperature controlling device.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJLjg2-on2M

It's all good.

Oh yes, we'll have regulations alright. But it has nothing to do with Brandon, the Darwin, Phil or Dr. Farsalinos.

Thank you Katya, I didn't know about that research or Imeo's V.I.R. . I think a bit more reading is in the cards for me.

The nic rush of 2 mg juice at 25 watts after vaping zero for a few weeks was good too . Ya gotta love it!

And did I mention a little while back that this is probably going to be fun? OK, so shoot me now,

 

[Katya]

Thank you Katya, I didn't know about that research or Imeo's V.I.R. . I think a bit more reading is in the cards for me.

The nic rush of 2 mg juice at 25 watts after vaping zero for a few weeks was good too . Ya gotta love it!

And did I mention a little while back that this is probably going to be fun? OK, so shoot me now,

Hehehe... http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/gg/611396-vir-official.html#post14319146

Bit contentious at times.

2 mg nic rush? You're a cheap date, Ryedan!

Have fun.

And goodnight.

 

[Ryedan]

Hehehe... http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/gg/611396-vir-official.html#post14319146

Bit contentious at times.

2 mg nic rush? You're a cheap date, Ryedan!

Have fun.

And goodnight.

An Imeo thread, contentious ... That will never happen

Thank you my dear and goodnight back at ya.

 

[rusirius]

So risirius, I'm not personally attacking you but most of your ideas and concepts sound exactly like the ideas and concepts from Evolv's DNA 40 research? It sure matches up pretty well and your timing is uncanny. Do you also claim like Evolv does that one can perhaps avoid certain undesired vape chemicals by not over boiling juices? Just curious.

If you're somehow implying that I'm affiliated with Evolv perhaps you should read over the thread again. There was quite a debate/discussion about how I'm still not convinced the DNA40 is going to be all it's cracked up to be.

As for your second part... over-boiling??? Do me a favor... Go get a pot of water and over-boil it for me.... How exactly are you going to do that? You can't "over-boil" a liquid... The laws of the universe just don't work that way. That's what boiling is... Liquid changing to it's gaseous phase which in doing so carries away excess heat. A liquid isn't going to reach a temperature higher than it's boiling point in 1 atmosphere of pressure.

Now what the DNA40 has the potential to do, is to prevent the coil from reaching a temperature higher than it's set EVEN if the coil dries out. That means it won't burn your wicking material, the gunk that forms on the coil (particulate matter that is left behind when the juice is vaporized), etc. That's where any nastiness is going to be.

And that's why as I explained to Dr. G. I'm not naysaying, and I'm not trashing the DNA40 by any means... I'm just not completely convinced it's going to be the miraculous shift in vaping it seems. It does have it's benefits, don't get me wrong. I'm just not sure those benefits are going to be enough to convince me to give up the rest of my vape gear. Or for that matter, give up the power the higher voltage devices give me. I often run builds higher than 40 watts, and running the DNA40 at 40watts I'm guessing means you give up some of the benefits like that "instant on" heating, etc... Now if they released a much higher voltage/wattage version, maybe in the 70-100 range then I have no doubt I'd be all over it. But from the sounds of things, and from their past, I don't think they'll do that... At least not for a long time.

 

[rusirius]

Does anyone know the temperature created on a coil at low ohms...say .8 to .15? If it is well beyond boiling point for vg I'm done with that...assume 4.2 volts on it...I mean I like the blackened crispies on my brisket pieces but they don't go into my throat and lungs...

The temperature created on a coil at ANY resistance (provided it is supplied enough power to reach the boiling point of the juice) is going to be EXACTLY that... The boiling temperature of the juice... It's not going to reach a temperature higher than that, PROVIDED it is kept saturated with juice. It's only when the coil is allowed to dry out that it's temperature can raise above that point.

 

[rusirius]

I don't think anybody ran any tests to determine that--maybe Brandon and Jon did.

The bottom line: any atomizer is just a heating element that is cooled by e-liquid. Which means that no matter how hot the coil gets (within reason, of course), once it gets hit with cool liquid, its temperature will drop and the said e-liquid will be instantly turned into vapor at the precise its boiling (flash) point. The hotter the coil, the faster the evaporation will occur. So, provided you can keep the coil wet at all times, nothing will crisp. Of course, the hotter the coil, the more e-liquid you have to be able to supply to it--fast. If the coil gets no eliquid in time, it will turn red hot and crisp anything it comes in contact with.

This issue has been debated here for years because we were worried about acrolein formation with VG-based e-liquids. If you want to learn more about it, this post is very informative:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...erine-vapor-acrolein-issues.html#post10381885

^^^^^ This...

 

[rusirius]

op is about vaping to the opposite of sub ohming. Debunking the myth of resistance matters.

Not exactly... First and foremost my OP was stating "You don't have to have ultra low-ohms to get massive amounts of vapor and flavor." Outlining the concepts and ideas behind what actually makes e-juice vaporize and how that relates to surface area. Which with the newer high voltage regulated mods coming out means you can use higher resistance coils which have much lower heat capacities to get large surface area. Still dump massive amounts of power into it (via high voltage) and vaporize juice like mad... In doing so losing some of the negatives of doing the same via ultra low-sub ohm setups. One major part being lag times.

Resistance ALWAYS matters... It's actually even integral to the entire discussion of my first post.

 

[rusirius]

Just said OP is espousing the exact same theory behind Evolv's DNA 40 chip and why they created it...

Not at all... I'm espousing the concept of using high voltage to drive higher resistance coils to gain large surface area with high energy. The DNA40 is all about having a method of being able to reduce the energy supplied to the coil and prevent it from rising above a given set temperature. They honestly have nothing to do with one another, and my original post can be applied to ANY vaping, rather it's on a standard device or a DNA40...

 

[rusirius]

The revelation (to me, anyway) of the DNA 40 chip is the concept of uncoupling of power (wattage, volume) and temperature (flavor, safety). You can keep your high wattage (clouds) and lower the temperature at the same time to a safe or simply preferable level. That is a completely new phenomenon. High wattage vaping will not require high temperatures any more--no more burning and scorching and, potentially dangerous, chemicals being formed in the proces . The OP didn't mention that at all...

If I'm dead wrong, somebody please shoot me. It's late.

You can't really uncouple power from temperature as they were never really coupled in the first place. Oh I'm going to take a lot of heat over that statement I know, but technically they aren't... Let me explain...

In a GOOD setup, meaning wicking is good enough to keep the coils saturated for the power being supplied, the temperature is not set by the power... it's set by the juice...

1 watt = 3.312 BTU

You can't run "high wattage and lower temperature". The DNA40 doesn't allow you to run really high watts but somehow perform physics magic that keeps the coil cool while doing so... What it does is to "limit" the watts or energy output in order to prevent the coil from rising above a certain temperature...

So think of it like this... I'm going to throw some things out the window here for simplicity sake, but please, bear with me...

If I run a build on a normal device at say 30 watts, but anything more than that will begin to burn... meaning my wicking can't keep up with any higher vaporization.

If I run an equivalent build in a DNA40... Then when I get to 30 watts all is well... Now let's say I decide, "Oh, this lets me run higher wattage at lower temperature", so I crank it up to 40 watts....

You're NOT running 40 watts... Instead what's going to happen is the device is going to limit itself to outputting 30 watts.... It's vaporizing the same amount of juice... The difference is it's not going to allow itself to get to a power output that exceeds the capabilities of the wick... You can set it to 40 watts all day long, but it's never going to reach that level... it's ONLY going to output 30 on that setup unless you "fix it".

So like I saw an earlier post somewhere, I don't think it was in this thread, but they said, "Oh this is awesome, I can't run more than 8 watts on my builds without getting a burnt taste... I can't wait to get this so I can start pumping out 40 watts and get lots more vapor and flavor and never get that burnt taste."

If he got this device and put his build on there it's STILL only going to run 8 watts... No matter what he sets it for.

That's what these devices are about, LIMITING the power output in order to PREVENT the temperature of the coil from exceeding a certain preset level. If you can't make a build that can take more than 10 watts without burning, this device won't help you...

Now before Dr. G jumps on me... I'm not negating the benefits of it... I'm simply trying to expel this whole idea or concept that I've seen mentioned in several threads and several posts where people seem to think this will somehow magically keep the temperature of their coil lower while allowing them to run more power and get more vapor... It just doesn't happen that way...

 

[rusirius]

Nope, if I understand the explanation correctly, you're pretty spot on.

Think of temperature as speed, and power as the gas flow to the engine.

Set the cruise control at 70mph (400 degrees) and as you go up and down hills (resistance of the coil changing as the temperature changes) the cruise control will vary the gas to the engine to make sure that it's creating the right amount of power (watts) to maintain your speed (temperature).

I really hope that makes sense...?

Exactly! but I don't think that's what she was thinking in her understanding... I think in her understanding she was thinking it would be like setting the cruise control then it would allow you to push the gas all the way to the floor and still keep the speed the same... It doesn't work that way... cruise control limits the amount of gas going into the engine... when you go down a hill it cuts the flow of gas which reduces the POWER the engine makes to keep the speed the same... That's what the DNA40 does... in a sub-optimal setup it restricts the voltage and therefore power going into the coil.... It doesn't allow you to run more power on a coil but keep the temperature low.

Thank you for that analogy though... that was spot on!

 

[Aal_]

You can't really uncouple power from temperature as they were never really coupled in the first place. Oh I'm going to take a lot of heat over that statement I know, but technically they aren't... Let me explain...

In a GOOD setup, meaning wicking is good enough to keep the coils saturated for the power being supplied, the temperature is not set by the power... it's set by the juice...

1 watt = 3.312 BTU

You can't run "high wattage and lower temperature". The DNA40 doesn't allow you to run really high watts but somehow perform physics magic that keeps the coil cool while doing so... What it does is to "limit" the watts or energy output in order to prevent the coil from rising above a certain temperature...

So think of it like this... I'm going to throw some things out the window here for simplicity sake, but please, bear with me...

If I run a build on a normal device at say 30 watts, but anything more than that will begin to burn... meaning my wicking can't keep up with any higher vaporization.

If I run an equivalent build in a DNA40... Then when I get to 30 watts all is well... Now let's say I decide, "Oh, this lets me run higher wattage at lower temperature", so I crank it up to 40 watts....

You're NOT running 40 watts... Instead what's going to happen is the device is going to limit itself to outputting 30 watts.... It's vaporizing the same amount of juice... The difference is it's not going to allow itself to get to a power output that exceeds the capabilities of the wick... You can set it to 40 watts all day long, but it's never going to reach that level... it's ONLY going to output 30 on that setup unless you "fix it".

So like I saw an earlier post somewhere, I don't think it was in this thread, but they said, "Oh this is awesome, I can't run more than 8 watts on my builds without getting a burnt taste... I can't wait to get this so I can start pumping out 40 watts and get lots more vapor and flavor and never get that burnt taste."

If he got this device and put his build on there it's STILL only going to run 8 watts... No matter what he sets it for.

That's what these devices are about, LIMITING the power output in order to PREVENT the temperature of the coil from exceeding a certain preset level. If you can't make a build that can take more than 10 watts without burning, this device won't help you...

Now before Dr. G jumps on me... I'm not negating the benefits of it... I'm simply trying to expel this whole idea or concept that I've seen mentioned in several threads and several posts where people seem to think this will somehow magically keep the temperature of their coil lower while allowing them to run more power and get more vapor... It just doesn't happen that way...

That's correct. But i see a benefit. The benefit first is that it is telling you that your wicking needs fixing. But also second it gives you dynamic wattage during your drag. This is very important. If you make long drags say 10 seconds. Sometimes a tank say a kayfun starts dry because of some loss in pressure, then liquid starts gushing in. So your coil will give you ascending wattage. This is a great addition because without it I would get a dry hit, put it down do some primer puffs then try again. Now it's more fire and forget.

 

[JeremyR]

Agreed, power without burning is limited by wicking action and air flow.

 

[tj99959]

It's just a lot of different paths that end at the same destination.

The bottom line is that first you determine what you want that destination to be. Then, and only then, can you choose which path you want to take to get there. You can choose to adjust the temperature, the wattage, the voltage, the resistance, the air flow, or the wicking, it makes no difference. You are simply trying to get to the desired destination. You simply need a right combination of factors to get the desired result.
You will find it all covered thoroughly in the theories & laws of thermodynamics.

 

[williamclarkonet]

Thanks for the well written post!! I learned alot from you!