Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux
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To me, Smooth Criminal is a singularly unusual juice. I might say unique. I'm on my third 30ml bottle after a year and a half, and I still have no clue what's in SC. I do get tobacco flavor from it, but I have no idea what kind of tobacco it is nor how it was extracted. A light Cavendish? Yeah, maybe, but maybe not. Beyond the mystery tobacco, my brain can't identify anything with certainty about the other flavors. Are they cased? topped? infused? added as flavorings during the final mix? I don't know. As for what those flavors are, I might reach for the word "caramel," but if caramel is indeed in there, it's a weird caramel unlike any other I've ever had. And I'm not at all sure that what I taste is caramel.
For my money, Smooth Criminal is the Rosetta Stone of eliquids---a melange of flavors that have melded together completely into something I have no name for and for which my taste database can't find any associations. And yet, SC vapes as if it were totally intentional and not the least bit haphazard. Someone (Wlad?) created this juice and wanted it to taste like it does.
I've always liked Smooth Criminal---sometimes more, other times less---but my reaction is invariably positive. About the worst thing I can say about SC is that I vape it on occasion and think, "Ah yes, Smooth Criminal. Good juice, but not what I want right now." I never vape it for very long before moving on to other juices, but---even more than BGB and DD---SC defines Ahlusion for me.
Ahhh ok. Put it away for another 6 weeks. You may not believe it now, but any SC fan here can attest that you'll be vaping a totally different juice. SC doesn't improve, it transforms.
You're absolutely right - it is in no way quantifiable. Everything I or anyone else writes about juice, which should go without saying, should be read with the caveats/disclaimers of "IMO," "To me," "I find that," "My taste buds say," etc. Taste is by far the most subjective of the senses, and what one person says about a juice is in no way applicable to the way someone else might experience it. One of my favorite quotes I read here recently was along the lines of "One person's honey tobacco is another person's raccoon piss" or something to that effect. Nothing could be closer to the truth, and that applies to all sorts of juices. Your palate could be way more discerning than mine, for all I know. I just know that their juices (two, anyway) really click with me in a way that none others have to date.
I personally don't have any insight into Real Extracts' costs and balance sheet, so I guess I have to take their word for it in that post. All I know is that I have an approximate $0.50-0.60/ml price point for quality juices that I'm not willing to go above. I got Real Extracts' in that range, and way below for the most recent order.
I'll hit ya with a PM and maybe we could work a swap. I see that we're sorta neighbors.
Yup, same for me as well! I enjoy SC but not to the point where I want to vape it all day. It behaves well in a tank and for that I'd put it in my kayfuns but I can't get myself to drip it over other NETs I have.
I think it's beneficial to not let expectations get in the way of any juice, but especially with hugely popular juices like Smooth Crim and Boba's Bounty. They often need to be given time to let preconceived notions about them fade so they can be judged on how someone personally feels about them. It's just so easily to be disappointed when you're expecting a miracle to slap you in the face.
Bill's post is spot on to how I feel about SC. Thing is though, I didn't first vape it and think; oh my God, best thing ever. It was mainly; this is decent enough. And it grew from there. I'm still not amazed by the flavor when I vape it, rather I'm amazed by how much I like it.. if that makes any sense.
Correct me if i am wrong, but i was under the impression that all Ahlusion non-aromatics were cavendish and synthetic mixes. I might have even read it on their site.
LOL!! If it was Best Damn Tobacco, I'd grab the gun, shove it in my mouth, and pull the trigger myself. It would probably taste about the same or better too. If it was down to one line, before Real Extracts (only because they scratch the cig itch so damn well), I probably would have chosen NETcom, GeJ, RBFS, or Smug Juice in that order. If it was down to one from Ahl, I love well aged Smooth Crim, but I find well aged Deal Maker the cat's pajamas/bee's knees/shizz of dessert vapes.
Yeah... I'm afraid you are wrong. One example I immediately thought of is Saraha Blend... I'll quote their description....
You also mentioned earlier about taste being too subjective for someone to always identify a quality juice... I won't say that is wrong per se but it is not completely correct either. If you read through the first thread as well as this one... you'll repeatedly see many saying they feel that a juice is a quality one but it isn't one they care for. I've experience that myself on many. There is a aspect on a good juice that shows ( err... tastes, feels or whatever it is ) and can be detected even when it is a flavor a person may not care for. Don't confuse this with saying that something that I ( or others ) say they don't think it's a quality juice meaning that no one else will like the flavor... There are certain low quality juices that some people like also... that is where your subjective statement will apply.
Yeah, there's something on the site mentioned the non-aros being based on Cavendish tobaccos. It may have been true at the time it was written (at least a couple years ago) or maybe it doesn't mean what it seems like it means, but either way I highly doubt it's the case with vapes like Sweet Virginia, Sahara, American Blend, etc. I've even heard the WW line uses some Latakia, but not sure about that. Like Bill, I can't even hazard a guess as to what tobacco is used in Smooth Crim.
Keep in mind, Ahl also refer to aromatics and non-aromatics backwards and call Gold Rising an RY4 lol, so don't take everything on the site as gospel. Wlad even claims he lists VG/PG in that order for the ratio because it's the American style to list in that order. Goofy guy.. makes a hell of a good product though.
yes of course, Sahara Blend !
I have always found their descriptions a little vague to be honest. They tend to used the words "based on" and "foundation" etc... and won't clearly state exactly which tobacco's were extracted and if a certain non-aromatic also has synthetic tobacco flavoring. I don't really care that much to be honest as long as i like the taste.
I think you are unintentionally paraphrasing my comment re quality incorrectly. I hear what you are saying, but i still stand by my comment that a statement such as vendor x's juices are of higher quality than vendor y, can not be objectively verified by anyone. Now you might find some extreme examples of such crap juice that almost every one can clearly taste it, but even in those cases there aren't universally accepted criteria for proving it. I digress ... I understand what you are getting at though.
Here's the verbatim skinny from the product pages on the Ahlusion web site:
"While our non-aromatic blends are based on natural tobacco extracts (mainly various blends of light and dark Cavendish), the focus is not on the tobacco itself, but a blend or flavors in this recipe. The tobacco used in our non-aromatic blends is fairly neutral compared to our aromatic blends.
Non-aromatic blends can be in anything from cigarettes, to pipes; traditionally non-aromatic blends can consist of any blend of tobaccos, but they usually lack that distinct aroma and flavor; most of the focus is on the pure natural flavors of the tobaccos used and serve as a fairly neutral base for our non-aromatic e-liquids. For our non-aromatic blends we use milder Cavendish blends which are a bit sweeter and balanced with complementary flavors."
Non-aromatic blends can be in anything from cigarettes, to pipes; traditionally non-aromatic blends can consist of any blend of tobaccos, but they usually lack that distinct aroma and flavor; most of the focus is on the pure natural flavors of the tobaccos used and serve as a fairly neutral base for our non-aromatic e-liquids. For our non-aromatic blends we use milder Cavendish blends which are a bit sweeter and balanced with complementary flavors."
The key word there is "mainly," which leaves the door open.
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I want to report again about my home-extracted Hearth&Home Freight Train non-aromatic pipe tobacco blend. Initially, I wasn’t pleased. This is a complex blend of tobaccos---Red Virginia, dark Burley, dark-fired Kentucky, plus a bit of Black Cav and Perique---and my first reaction was that the “stew” of flavors was much too muddy.
Now, however---nearly three months later---steeping has transformed the DIY NET juice into something quite wonderful. The individual tobaccos are much more distinct, but what’s truly amazing to me is how they’ve re-blended into a tasty overall harmony.
I had this pegged as a failure at first, but now---to my great surprise and considerable pleasure---it’s a big success.
The same can’t be said for Hearth&Home Steamroller, however, which I extracted in the same late May batch. That even more complex aromatic/English blend of Red Virginia, two dark Burleys, Black Cavendish, Latakia, and Perique was seriously disappointing to me when it was freshly extracted. Three months of steeping may have improved it a little, but not nearly enough to win me over. Not by a long shot.
Steamroller could be a nice blend with its Va/Per/Burley plus a touch of smoky Latakia, but the overbearing vanilla casing of the Black Cav ruins it for me. Steamroller is like a science project gone wrong. The description on Pipes&Cigars states that Russ Oullette went through eight different iterations of Steamroller before settling on the one I ordered and subsequently extracted. As far as I’m concerned, he should have tried #9 or gone back to Square One and started over, leaving out that damned vanilla Black Cav.
Freight Train serves to illustrate the importance and transformative power of patient steeping, while Steamroller shows that no amount of steeping can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Freight Train is a winner; Steamroller isn’t.
Now, however---nearly three months later---steeping has transformed the DIY NET juice into something quite wonderful. The individual tobaccos are much more distinct, but what’s truly amazing to me is how they’ve re-blended into a tasty overall harmony.
I had this pegged as a failure at first, but now---to my great surprise and considerable pleasure---it’s a big success.
The same can’t be said for Hearth&Home Steamroller, however, which I extracted in the same late May batch. That even more complex aromatic/English blend of Red Virginia, two dark Burleys, Black Cavendish, Latakia, and Perique was seriously disappointing to me when it was freshly extracted. Three months of steeping may have improved it a little, but not nearly enough to win me over. Not by a long shot.
Steamroller could be a nice blend with its Va/Per/Burley plus a touch of smoky Latakia, but the overbearing vanilla casing of the Black Cav ruins it for me. Steamroller is like a science project gone wrong. The description on Pipes&Cigars states that Russ Oullette went through eight different iterations of Steamroller before settling on the one I ordered and subsequently extracted. As far as I’m concerned, he should have tried #9 or gone back to Square One and started over, leaving out that damned vanilla Black Cav.
Freight Train serves to illustrate the importance and transformative power of patient steeping, while Steamroller shows that no amount of steeping can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Freight Train is a winner; Steamroller isn’t.
Thanks Bill, I was initially interested in both these extracts and trying my hand at extracting them this winter. I will strike the Steamroller off my to do list for now and wait for a #9 try by Mr. Oullette.
We have to remember that vaping gives us a very different taste from smoking. Plus each style of smoking has it's on taste depending on the pyrolization style of the tobaccos. This is even more complicated when you get to pipes. Different shapes and volumes of pipes will all burn some what differently and taste different. Russ's blend may be an awesome smoke. That doesn't mean it is a great vape.
that is one of the things all home extractors must remember, it is aways a gamble. Hopefully, one day we'll get to the point that some blender like Russ will start studying up and blend tobaccos with us in mind. In the mean time we all cast our lot and pray for the best.
I have Freight Train cooking right now, and your post was rather timely Bill. If I may ask, at what percentage of flavoring did you use in your juice mix?
This is why I think the more DIY home extractors joining our little swap club, the better. By swapping our extracts back and forth we get to try a lot more tobacco blends in a months time than would be the case going it alone. For instance, Bill say's that Steam Roller is not for him, but you or I may like it. Don't cross it off your list until you get some from Bill and give it a try.
I'm coming up on 60 extractions and maybe 5 of them are standouts for me. Another five are good for an occasional vape. The other fifty include a lot of varietals I use for mixing. The rest I have sent out to you guys like the rest of the Orlick Sun Sliced. It wasn't for me but you seem to like it. Next time we swap I'll send you the half tin of the tobacco itself and you can extract it yourself. But this is an example of one " One man's poison is another man's ambrosia."
I'm coming up on 60 extractions and maybe 5 of them are standouts for me. Another five are good for an occasional vape. The other fifty include a lot of varietals I use for mixing. The rest I have sent out to you guys like the rest of the Orlick Sun Sliced. It wasn't for me but you seem to like it. Next time we swap I'll send you the half tin of the tobacco itself and you can extract it yourself. But this is an example of one " One man's poison is another man's ambrosia."
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