Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux
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To respond to this after listening around the 01:35:00: mark of the link you posted (skip the beginning parts unless you want to hear the controversy surrounding the vapemania meet- that part & be aware that the entire thing contains NSFW language and content)....
....The flavor providers ought to be held accountable for lying in regards to supplying "diacetyl-free" (this, rather should say "diketone-free") e-liquids that, in fact, contain diketones or similar.
This is somewhat akin to the FDA's guidelines saying that generics need to be something like 60% (or was it 65%?) chemically equivalent, as long as the compound in question is therapeutically equivalent to it's brand-name counterpart. AEMSA is on to the right thing, from my perspective. I would even say that they're aiming for higher marks than the FDA when it comes to safety. (of note, I've heard people jokingly refer to the FDA as the "Federal Death Administration")
The fact that it costs ~$130 per 10ml bottle to test, is very much so going to save vendors and consumers in the long-run.
I'm getting distracted, anyhow; I agree with the sentiment that this is an avoidable risk that should be entirely removed from e-liquid.
One of the things discussed was the fact that the flavor companies will not be liable if people develop popcorn lung from e-liquid; it's entirely the mixologists' liability.
"Our flavor vendor says there's no diacetyl," simply doesn't cut it: This is something that is painfully obvious at this point in the "vaping game", so to speak.
Is 7-11 selling e-liquids with diacetyl (diketones)? What about Chinese e-liquid? Vendors that advertise all-natural or organic flavorings?
All of it means absolutely nothing without testing of specific e-liquids. Great share regarding that link, and thank you for bringing this up, Mazinny.
(the story linked to on the show's page is available here. Can you imagine what would happen if CNN or another major U.S. news outlet did this story?)
I agree with calling producers of mass-made e-liquid and asking for certified independent lab results.
For those of you wishing to do further research on diacetyl/diketones and some similar chemicals;
(information below credit entirely to chemicalland21's website)
SYNONYMS: Pentane-2,3-dione; Acetyl propionyl;
Acetyl propanal; Beta,gamma-dioxopentane
Diketones are used as a solvent for cellulose acetate, paints, inks, lacquers and as starting materials for the manufacture of target molecules including dyes, pesticides and drugs. 2,3-Pentanedione is used as a constituents of synthetic flavouring agents (Odor description : buttery, cheesy, sweet, nutty, fruity, creamy, caramel). Some examples of aliphatic alpha-diketones found in food additives are:
2-Acetoxy-3-butanone [CAS RN: 4906-24-5]
Butan-3-one-2-yl-butanoate [CAS RN: 84642-61-5]
Diacetyl [CAS RN: 431-03-8]
2,3-Pentanedione [CAS RN: 600-14-6]
4-Methyl-2,3-pentadione [CAS RN: 7493-58-5]
2,3-Hexadione [CAS RN: 3848-24-6]
3,4-Hexadione [CAS RN: 4437-51-8]
5-Methyl-2,3-hexadione [CAS RN: 13706-86-0]
2,3-Heptanedione [CAS RN: 96-04-8]
2,3-Undecadione [CAS RN: 7493-59-6]
EDIT: here's the after-hours portion of the link Mazinny originally posted.
https://soundcloud.com/vp-live/is-suicide-bunny-chock-full-of-diacetyl-the-vapemania-dust-up-afterhours
EDIT:
Here's a new show segment that has an idea of how to get the diketone-free vendors on a list.
[this was posted about an hour ago]
(Heads up, NSFW language)
https://soundcloud.com/vp-live/lets-clean-up-all-the-filthy-ignorant-and-careless-e-liquid-manufacturers-ecc-drama-roundup
& respectively, its after-hours counterpart:
https://soundcloud.com/vp-live/lets-clean-up-all-the-filthy-ignorant-careless-e-liquid-mfgrs-ecc-roundup-afterhours
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I performed a little informal head-to-head-to-head comparison test today on three different set-ups:
Flavor of both juices was terrific in all three set-ups, and so close that I couldnt give the nod to any one over another. What set the three apart, though ever-so-slightly, was the overall vaping experience. Vapor production and mouthfeel were thickest with the Magma, whose coil was the lowest resistance (1.0 ohm) and thickest wire (26-gauge). Dripping into the Joyetech 510 atty produced vapor and mouthfeel that were a bit thinner than with the bottom-fed YK-1, which was itself a tad less thick than with the Magma. So, the Magma wins in a tight race (with a citation to the bottom-fed YK-1 Mini for ease of use, since squonking is easier than dripping), but all three are wonderful juice delivery systems.
In fairness, I also vape NETs and dessert juices in such humble devices as BCC clearomizers (Evod clones and Kanger T3s), dual-coil clearos (itaste16s), and even CE4s/CE5s. While not as good as the three I compared today, those lower-end devices are still acceptable to me, even for NETs. Their flavor, vapor, and mouthfeel are sufficient, if less than perfect, and theyre very convenient. I even enjoy rebuilding the heads on the BCCs with premade 1.5 ohm Nichrome NR-R-NR micro-coils ($3 for 50 from slowtech) and KGD cotton or rayon wicks. That elevates them to respectability.
I just ordered an Origen v2 1:1 clone from slowtech, because---unlike the Magma---I can convert that one to bottom-fed with a little dremel action.
- a Magma clone RDA built with a 1.0-ohm 26-gauge Kanthal single horizontal microcoil wicked with KGD cotton and powered by a Kicked Origin mech mod set to 10 watts
- a bottom-fed YK-1 Mini (Cyclone clone) built with a 1.2-ohm 28-gauge Kanthal single horizontal microcoil wicked with rayon and powered by a Vapage XL 18650 bottom-feeder
- an old-school 2.2-ohm Joyetech standard 510 atomizer powered by a VAMO v3 set to 9 watts
A. a high-end DIY NET made from my homemade extract of a Rocky Patel Autumn 2008 Maduro cigar
B. a DIY dessert juice for my sweet tooth, Lemon Cupcake with Cream Cheese Icing
B. a DIY dessert juice for my sweet tooth, Lemon Cupcake with Cream Cheese Icing
Flavor of both juices was terrific in all three set-ups, and so close that I couldnt give the nod to any one over another. What set the three apart, though ever-so-slightly, was the overall vaping experience. Vapor production and mouthfeel were thickest with the Magma, whose coil was the lowest resistance (1.0 ohm) and thickest wire (26-gauge). Dripping into the Joyetech 510 atty produced vapor and mouthfeel that were a bit thinner than with the bottom-fed YK-1, which was itself a tad less thick than with the Magma. So, the Magma wins in a tight race (with a citation to the bottom-fed YK-1 Mini for ease of use, since squonking is easier than dripping), but all three are wonderful juice delivery systems.
In fairness, I also vape NETs and dessert juices in such humble devices as BCC clearomizers (Evod clones and Kanger T3s), dual-coil clearos (itaste16s), and even CE4s/CE5s. While not as good as the three I compared today, those lower-end devices are still acceptable to me, even for NETs. Their flavor, vapor, and mouthfeel are sufficient, if less than perfect, and theyre very convenient. I even enjoy rebuilding the heads on the BCCs with premade 1.5 ohm Nichrome NR-R-NR micro-coils ($3 for 50 from slowtech) and KGD cotton or rayon wicks. That elevates them to respectability.
I just ordered an Origen v2 1:1 clone from slowtech, because---unlike the Magma---I can convert that one to bottom-fed with a little dremel action.
I agree with your disagreement. I'd throw the Venturi in there as well, in terms of having a unique design.
The trend with SoCal companies in H2 2014 is tri-coil. I didn't see the need for it initially, but after trying a few built up by the modders that made them, tri-coil offers a nice combination of flavor and vapor. Personally, it's not something I need (not a cloud guy), but it's potentially interesting for cloud chasers that desire more flavor.
I've placed 2 orders since they officially reopened and got both of them very quickly. One took about a week or so, and the other was about 6 days from purchase to arrival.
Glad to see their back on top. These have always been my favorite NETs hands down. So far incredibly happy with my last two orders and looking forward to placing many more.
Glad to see their back on top. These have always been my favorite NETs hands down. So far incredibly happy with my last two orders and looking forward to placing many more.
Apologioes, the previous reply was in response to post #8811 by Nikthastik...
"Has anyone heard back from Clay (NET.com) yet, regarding their email transaction? I ordered Friday, sent another email earlier today...still haven't heard anything. My order shows up on the website when I log in, but no info from Clay or Chelsae yet."
Meant to hit "reply with quote" but hit reply on accident.
So far so good here with N-E-T orders after their recent "re-opening." Excellent!
"Has anyone heard back from Clay (NET.com) yet, regarding their email transaction? I ordered Friday, sent another email earlier today...still haven't heard anything. My order shows up on the website when I log in, but no info from Clay or Chelsae yet."
Meant to hit "reply with quote" but hit reply on accident.
So far so good here with N-E-T orders after their recent "re-opening." Excellent!
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The potential of the Magma is limitless, Anthony. You really want to at some point try it with a dual coil in the .7 - .8 ohm range. Drastically low nic at that level though.
Have I missed your review of the RBFS juices? I've been going through some of them in the last few days and loving whatever I've grabbed thus far.
You haven't missed my reviews Dusty. I think I did a quick first impressions on tapatalk a month ago, which was probably more of a first blink than an impression.
I am giving them a good steep at the moment. I tried all of them and felt they could do with a month or so in the steeper draw.
All of them impressed me and the DWIT is everything I imagined it to be as was Drunken Pirates Sweet Tooth. I love the Count Caramel and one that surprised me was the Dark Berry Honey. I didn't expect to like it not being a huge fan of honey generally but this is a lovely complex green river cavendish liquid with a medium body and fruity overtone.
I should start vaping them now. Eager to see how they perform in the magma.
As for dual coils in the magma. Whew, I will be Nic high in 5 minutes given all my juices are 16-18 mg except for my recent batch of GEJ juices which are 12mg.
Speaking of GEJ, it's great to have the old favs Patriot, Wild Turkey and Acacia Gold in my life, but what's going down with analog and Godfather? These are surely not 100% net.
I have often speculated that Patriot is also not 100% net due to the sweetness that I believe comes from ethyl maltol. It makes no difference to me if they are or aren't because I very much enjoy Patriot, but Godfather almost went in the bin after one tank. I'm prepared to wait and see how it steeps.
Please correct me if I am wrong but I'm prepared to put a wager that at the least, godfather and analog have synthetic flavours mixed with the NET.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
May I, as a NOOB to NET's ask some expert opinions on something Ive found with my delivered NET's and VJ's NET's. To start I USED to roll my own analogs. I used a nice pipe tobacco black cherry, mixed with some normal drier tobaccos so they roll nice. Also tried some vanilla tobaccos. I REALLY liked them and they mostly replaced the nasty corporate cigs I smoked for so long. Once I got into vaping I quickly went from the EGOs' to a SVD, to a Titan mech, seeking more flavor. I REALLY enjoy Velvet Clouds "beard" line for some tobacco relief, and other nice flavors. I thought I would get a hold of some NET's. AS most have experienced I waited a little over 2 months from NET, and a much quicker order from VJ. Heres the problem.....
I KNOW they are true NET's because they all have the same nuance to me (About 8 different bottles and flavors). They ALL have a strange musty smell, as if Im smoking them ...uhhh vaping them thru a 3 week old gym sock!!!
Or stale old food, like an old flour or oatmeal, musty smell and flavor. SOoooo, is this normal? does this steep away? Theyve all been steeping for 2 months, do they need a higher wattage? lower? Just super disappointed in what I thought would be the perfect replacement to tasty tobaccos. Thanks
I KNOW they are true NET's because they all have the same nuance to me (About 8 different bottles and flavors). They ALL have a strange musty smell, as if Im smoking them ...uhhh vaping them thru a 3 week old gym sock!!!
Or stale old food, like an old flour or oatmeal, musty smell and flavor. SOoooo, is this normal? does this steep away? Theyve all been steeping for 2 months, do they need a higher wattage? lower? Just super disappointed in what I thought would be the perfect replacement to tasty tobaccos. Thanks
Are you just smelling them, or actually vaping them? Also, what vendor is VJ? Could you list the NETs you've bought, along with what you're using to vape them? Voltage, ohms etc?
It'll help paint a better picture of what you're experiencing.
Most NETs I've come across smell musty, wet dog'ish etc but taste entirely different when vaped which is when the true flavours come out. Synthetics for some reason smell better. It could be the fact that the tobacco is soaked in PG/VG that gives it that musty odour.
It'll help paint a better picture of what you're experiencing.
Most NETs I've come across smell musty, wet dog'ish etc but taste entirely different when vaped which is when the true flavours come out. Synthetics for some reason smell better. It could be the fact that the tobacco is soaked in PG/VG that gives it that musty odour.
THanks Dusty, Ok to answer your question that you axxed me..(think Analyze This haha) I smell them and vape them getting the same uhhh nuance or essence. Both are giving me a veryyyyy strange smell and vape, not tobacco-ish at all. But all I have to go on is those pipe tobacco's I rolled and regular analogs. So lets see.....(taking out bottles from steep draw lol)
The NETs are.....Chris's Blend, Dover Court, and Black Cherry all 100% VG
VJ is from Myvapejuice which is Dark Pipe, and one that I cant read the label anymore cause its fading, much lighter (Summer blend?) , Captain Black, and Bombay heat. (I ordered a bunch from both hoping for a homerun.)
What I have vaped em on mostly (Im waggin here cause I dont use em much) is on a Mech Titan with a .5 build dual coil on 28g Kanthal.(25-30 watts) I have not filled any RTA tanks like the Kayfun with these. The atty is an authentic Zenith V2. Almost everything I vape on this setup is nice cept for the high PG juices, just dont like them and the "wet dog" smell you mention. Only problem is when Im vaping em I get that same mustiness. If they dont get better soon someone can have em all! lol
Sav
The NETs are.....Chris's Blend, Dover Court, and Black Cherry all 100% VG
VJ is from Myvapejuice which is Dark Pipe, and one that I cant read the label anymore cause its fading, much lighter (Summer blend?) , Captain Black, and Bombay heat. (I ordered a bunch from both hoping for a homerun.)
What I have vaped em on mostly (Im waggin here cause I dont use em much) is on a Mech Titan with a .5 build dual coil on 28g Kanthal.(25-30 watts) I have not filled any RTA tanks like the Kayfun with these. The atty is an authentic Zenith V2. Almost everything I vape on this setup is nice cept for the high PG juices, just dont like them and the "wet dog" smell you mention. Only problem is when Im vaping em I get that same mustiness. If they dont get better soon someone can have em all! lol
Sav
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You seem to be doing most everything right. I'm just wondering if you are perhaps applying a bit too much heat to them, and washing out the flavour. Have you tried them around the 15-20W range?
How old are the juices? Most NETs need around 3weeks to a month before the flavours mature and some require a heck of a lot more than that.
I agree entirely. I am quite surprised how little traction the results of Dr,Farsalinos' study has gotten in the vaping community. 70 % of 160 juices testing positive for diacetyl, is a staggering number, especially when the majority of them were declared diacetyl free by the manufacturer. This really doesn't speak highly of the industry.
What concerns me more than the potential dangers of diacetyl, is the manufacturers blatant disregard for the accuracy of their own statements, or even worst, if they are outright lying.
I am also surprised at how little concern, vapers ( and i include myself ) show about this issue. Thousands and thousands of posts daily, discussing the smallest details of the latest gadgets and equipment etc ... and how many posts about this issue ?
This is what the podcaster wrote and i agree completely :
The e-liquids being put out by manufacturers may be toxic, if not to our lungs, then certainly to our rights. Our anti-vaping enemies will take this information and run wild with it. This will lead to vaping use and sale bans across the country if we do no do something to stop it.
It looks like most e-liquid manufacturers dont care. Some do but most dont. They are not going to change unless we force them.
Listen to the diacetyl discussion. Then press the manufacturers to show you lab results. Start with the e-liquids that you buy most often.
Here is an example on how to ask:
Hi xxx,
I have a question regarding diacetyl testing in (insert manufacturer name) e-liquid: can you provide me with a copy of a lab report that verifies that (insert name(s) of e-liquid that you buy) are diacetyl free?
What I'm looking for is something like what this company provides to customers (use Google Chrome to translate the page):
www.nobacco.gr/component/content/article?id=210
As you can see, a copy of the test results from an independent laboratory is available for every eliquid that they sell.
Can you provide me with a copy of the results of a lab test that confirms
that (insert e-liquid names) are diacetyl-free?
Thanks,
(insert your name)
I am seriously considering making all future purchases from vendors abiding by AEMSA standards. STANDARDS | AEMSA
I encourage everyone to read these standards, and see for themselves if they would be more comfortable, buying from vendors who adhere to them.
Dusty, is there anything ECF could do to pressure the vendors that are affiliated with the site to join AEMSA?
Its different here, for me. The Origen gives better flavor and vapor, IMO.. and doesnt leak on me.
May I, as a NOOB to NET's ask some expert opinions on something Ive found with my delivered NET's and VJ's NET's. To start I USED to roll my own analogs. I used a nice pipe tobacco black cherry, mixed with some normal drier tobaccos so they roll nice. Also tried some vanilla tobaccos. I REALLY liked them and they mostly replaced the nasty corporate cigs I smoked for so long. Once I got into vaping I quickly went from the EGOs' to a SVD, to a Titan mech, seeking more flavor. I REALLY enjoy Velvet Clouds "beard" line for some tobacco relief, and other nice flavors. I thought I would get a hold of some NET's. AS most have experienced I waited a little over 2 months from NET, and a much quicker order from VJ. Heres the problem.....
I KNOW they are true NET's because they all have the same nuance to me (About 8 different bottles and flavors). They ALL have a strange musty smell, as if Im smoking them ...uhhh vaping them thru a 3 week old gym sock!!!
Or stale old food, like an old flour or oatmeal, musty smell and flavor. SOoooo, is this normal? does this steep away? Theyve all been steeping for 2 months, do they need a higher wattage? lower? Just super disappointed in what I thought would be the perfect replacement to tasty tobaccos. Thanks
You wrote that you liked VCV tobaccos for awhile, and VCV uses their own in-house produced Tobacco Absolute (TA). By contrast, N-E-T.com and MyVapeJuice both use macerated natural tobacco extracts, as do many other NET vendors, including GeJ, MOV, QnJ, and VapingWatch (RBFS), and HoL in Europe. So, that might be where the problem lies. Although I don't pick up any mustiness from NETs made from macerated extracts, nor from my large inventory of macerated extracts themselves---both retail and homemade---your olfactory bio-hardware may be more sensitive than mine. Seems like it, anyway. Macerated NETs taste great to my palate, but perhaps not to yours.
You might try NETs made from steam-distilled natural tobacco extracts rather than macerated extracts. Ahlusion (in their aromatic line), HHV, and IndigoVapors use steam-distilled extracts, as do some other NET vendors, I'm sure. Steam distillation produces extracts that provide a "cleaner," more well-defined, and sometimes punchier flavor.
"We" as in gubermint?
The only gripe I've got about Steam and CO2 distilled extracts is that they pull but a part of the flavor. All treble and no base, or vice versa where macerations pull the whole spectrum for me.
"We" as in vapers !
I shoot pool out of the same bar with the podcaster, so i know him quite well. He is a libertarian, bordering on an anarchist, so i doubt he sees a role for government in all this. Better to self-regulate as much as possible, to give less excuses to the busybodies who can't wait to regulate every aspect of our lives.
This is why i think is a great idea for vendors to voluntarily join groups like AEMSA
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Let's give this mystery man a name. It's Russ Wishtart, and the show is ClickBang! heard Tuesday night on vapersplace.com. A lot of what he does annoys me, but he has a sense of humor, and his show is often interesting.
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