Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux

[papabogart]

It appears that I have been "called out" or what is that noun that has been subverted into a verb? Dissed? I must be getting old. Even as recently as a few months ago I would have gone into scorched earth mode. Not Now. Not today. Maybe another time. Maybe another issue.

With my lousy taste buds, I always wondered if even the A+ aromatics weren't substantially synthetic.
I think we are probably seeing the beginning of the end of the golden age of NETs.
In some much smaller way NET's will survive. Taxed. Maybe Big T dominated, but I expect some footprint. Maybe Bill, Johni and Boomer will open a vape speakeasy and give me the password so I can again taste the good stuff and reminisce.

For my last post here, I would respectfully suggest you might consider creating a "Boot Hill" classification to honor memorable NET icons.

Evidently not for all of you, but it has been my pleasure to read and participate on this forum. I wish you all happy lives and good times. See you on the TINO thread.

 

[y cherry y]

I think we are probably seeing the beginning of the end of the golden age of NETs.
In some much smaller way NET's will survive. Taxed. Maybe Big T dominated, but I expect some footprint. Maybe Bill, Johni and Boomer will open a vape speakeasy and give me the password so I can again taste the good stuff and reminisce.

I think the recent message of this thread is that no password is necessary. With some study and practice, everyone can make their own serviceable-to-great macerated NETs. I'll even do it myself if I have to, once I get done scouring the Flavor West catalog for the Smooth Criminal formula.

 

[y cherry y]

The taste of pumpkin pie is subjective.

Young man, nobody appreciates a troublemaker.

 

[Mazinny]

So wait, a change they claimed didnt happen, or false advertising in the past??

Either way, not gonna deal with them.. Dont like when stuff like this happens and we are left guessing about whether we got scammed.

Without a doubt, both descriptions can not simultaneously be true. If it is in fact true that the ingredients in these juices have not changed, than one of those descriptions is false imo. I am not prepared to take the leap and say i have been scammed though, without giving them a chance to clarify. In any case, i have re-ordered both CWW and Sahara Blend, while strongly suspecting that they aren't NET's.

 

[billherbst]

Rather than remove Ahlusion from the A-List Vendors, I vote to change the descriptive comment.

That comment currently reads: "the 800 lb. gorilla of in-house NETs; cutting-edge extraction methods"

Clearly, Ahlusion's recent change of strategy has invalidated that statement.

How about this: "longstanding A-List Vendor now in transition regarding the flavorings of its retail tobacco liquids; current NET status is uncertain"

If no one objects, I think that change is accurate, relatively dispassionate, and completely warranted.

Dusty?

 

[Mazinny]

Never said that they scammed, only that its leaving me feel like I have to wonder. They should be clear and concise about what they are doing, and what things have changed. That is all.

Being on the 'List' doesnt mean they are there correctly, BTW.

But ya, I get your hint, Dusty, we all know the actual bias and 'good 'ol' boy'ism in this thread. There's a reason why more people aren't in here. Papa can come in here and demand that we stop talking about stuff that is important to use, and you agrre. Papa can pretty much say he's for the FDA stepping in and no one questions that. I can make a suggestion regarding your most favorite person of all time, Clay, and you delete it. No name calling, no accusations, just a thought and a feeling, and BOOM, the hammer comes down..

Ya, I get it... Have fun in YOUR thread.

I think Dusty is not speaking in his capacity as moderator, but a thread participant. You have as much right to express your opinions as anyone else, so long as you abide by the forum rules and guidelines. I don't think anyone has a higher standing than anyone else here, and the thread does not belong to anyone, any more than anyone else, regardless of how long they have posted here. Well with the possible exception of the op, i suppose ! Is there a general respect for the veterans of this thread for blazing the trail so to speak, i believe yes. But that doesn't afford them a greater say in how this thread is run, imo. This thread is for all NET lovers.

Do i agree with every post by every thread participant here ? Hell no ! But i believe discussing the specific issue or post that you find troublesome, with your own line of reasoning, is more fruitful than just implying certain posters are irritating.

My opinion, and i reserve the right to change it !

 

[Mazinny]

I agree, though I question whether we'd get details. The wording seems pretty deliberate. Again, I suspect it has everything to do about compliance and legality, rather than trying to confuse customers. It's smart on Ahlusion's part. When the FDA measures pass (still a long ways off), I suspect at least half the e-liquid companies in America to close shop and I suspect Ahlusion will still be around. Who knows though....

I suspect over 90 % will close shop, maybe 95 !

With regards to Ahl, specifically, if those particular juices contained tobacco extracts, and still do, and they are just playing semantics with the wording, i am more willing to understand, even though i don't necessarily agree with their tactics. If these juices however never contained tobacco extracts ( the exact words they used ), then i believe they were misleading their customers.

Tobacco extract does not magically turn into tobacco flavoring ( apparently two different substances, in their view ), based on the changing political climate. Sorry, don't buy it. You can't have it both ways.

And i don't believe they get a pass, because they have sold great juice to the vaping community. I will appraise a company based on the information available to me at the time. If new information comes out, that causes me to change my opinion about a vendor, or at least certain aspects of how they run their business, so be it. No get out of jail free cards.

I have repeatedly praised their juices, when i thought they merited it, and have praised various aspects of how they run their company. I have also criticized a couple aspects of their business ( tobacco descriptions being one ). This time will be no different. I will wait to see how this plays out. I am not going to rush to judgement.

Are there possible scenarios that would cause me to stop ordering from them. Yes. I am more concerned about transparency now, then i was six months ago.

 

[Midniteoyl]

I think Dusty is not speaking in his capacity as moderator, but a thread participant. You have as much right to express your opinions as anyone else, so long as you abide by the forum rules and guidelines. I don't think anyone has a higher standing than anyone else here, and the thread does not belong to anyone, any more than anyone else, regardless of how long they have posted here. Well with the possible exception of the op, i suppose ! Is there a general respect for the veterans of this thread for blazing the trail so to speak, i believe yes. But that doesn't afford them a greater say in how this thread is run, imo. This thread is for all NET lovers.

Do i agree with every post by every thread participant here ? Hell no ! But i believe discussing the specific issue or post that you find troublesome, with your own line of reasoning, is more fruitful than just implying certain posters are irritating.

My opinion, and i reserve the right to change it !

I did discuss... one got deleted, several got ignored, a couple created a backlash for voicing what many were thinking. And that was the problem. A couple/few here think that only what they believe or who they like deserve voice, and you better not go against it, by golly!


Peace out. G'night. Have fun...

 

[NoMoreTequila]

I've often thought that there was some sort of illusion with Ahlusion's tobaccos. Caramel Wild Wood has been the only reorder as far as their tobaccos go and I mostly use it to mix with real NETs. (love that caramel)

Other than this NET issue I think Ahl is first rate. I reorder their teas and I might try some more of their coffee offerings even though I've found JG Blend to be practically unvapable so far. (it's still young)

I believe that there is some truth regarding the 'good 'ol boy aspect to this thread. I can remember when you could be run out on a rail for dissing Ahl tobaccos or for even mentioning HHVs tobaccos. (something about HHVs lack of transparency)

 

[RPadTV]

I suspect over 90 % will close shop, maybe 95 !

Yeah, when I said 50 percent, I was being really conservative. It will likely be higher. The reality is that many -- possibly a majority -- e-liquid companies can't afford testing and compliance. The proposed cost for e-liquid submission is astronomical. Even if it ends up being 1/4 of the proposed cost, that's not something many juice companies can afford.

 

[Frankenmizer]

Also, anyone else find NETCom's Black Cavendish to be amazing in a dripper?

My first go-round with NETcom's Black Cav was in a Halo Triton - early days in my e-cig journey. I was a bit meh about the juice.

I got a Vicious Ant Kraken and tried Black Cav again. As Mark Todd says, "Stunnin'". I became a bit meh about the Triton.

I've yet to try BC in a dripper. There's no excuse for that other than, "D'oh!".

 

[Frankenmizer]

Rather than remove Ahlusion from the A-List Vendors, I vote to change the descriptive comment.

That comment currently reads: "the 800 lb. gorilla of in-house NETs; cutting-edge extraction methods"

Clearly, Ahlusion's recent change of strategy has invalidated that statement.

How about this: "longstanding A-List Vendor now in transition regarding the flavorings of its retail tobacco liquids; current NET status is uncertain"

If no one objects, I think that change is accurate, relatively dispassionate, and completely warranted.

Dusty?

Until Ahl's NET status is a confirmed yes or no. that's fair and reasonable. But (and I'm in range of the Drama Llama here) if Ahl is confirmed as non-NET, I will suggest they be removed from the list entirely. There's enough confusion and lack of clarity in Ahl's past advertising and current understanding of same to warrant that, IMHO. I'm sure there's a better way to word what I just wrote but it's 6-ish AM here and I can't brain fully yet.

 

[Dusty_D]

Yeah, when I said 50 percent, I was being really conservative. It will likely be higher. The reality is that many -- possibly a majority -- e-liquid companies can't afford testing and compliance. The proposed cost for e-liquid submission is astronomical. Even if it ends up being 1/4 of the proposed cost, that's not something many juice companies can afford.

When I met with Adam and Heather from HHV last month, we talked briefly about this. They had worked out the math for what was required if they needed to get this process done. Based on all the flavours they carry, and the different options they offer them in, they would have to send in roughly 1.3 million bottles to be tested and approved.

 

[RPadTV]

When I met with Adam and Heather from HHV last month, we talked briefly about this. They had worked out the math for what was required if they needed to get this process done. Based on all the flavours they carry, and the different options they offer them in, they would have to send in roughly 1.3 million bottles to be tested and approved.

Yeah, the way it's proposed, e-liquid companies have to get every flavor tested in every nicotine level. That's ridiculous. For a company with a large number of flavors like HHV, the testing process would be painful.

 

[Mazinny]

I've often thought that there was some sort of illusion with Ahlusion's tobaccos. Caramel Wild Wood has been the only reorder as far as their tobaccos go and I mostly use it to mix with real NETs. (love that caramel)

Other than this NET issue I think Ahl is first rate. I reorder their teas and I might try some more of their coffee offerings even though I've found JG Blend to be practically unvapable so far. (it's still young)

I believe that there is some truth regarding the 'good 'ol boy aspect to this thread. I can remember when you could be run out on a rail for dissing Ahl tobaccos or for even mentioning HHVs tobaccos. (something about HHVs lack of transparency)

Ahlusion is not at the top of my list when it comes to tobacco's either. Overall, i prefer MOV, HHV, Net.com and GoodEjuice and possibly MVJ ( although i have not vaped all their juices i have yet ). I completely agree with you re their teas though, and LFR was probably my favorite coffee ever until very recently ( i think nJoy double espresso has surpassed it at the top of my list, yeah i said it ! ). Having said that i really enjoyed BGB, and CWW and SB i like a lot as well regardless of their NET status.

I wouldn't necessarily call it the 'good ol' boy' aspect. Are there some long time posters who have grown a certain bond and affinity with each other over the years ? Yes, human nature. Have i noticed a few participants getting a little defensive when they perceive unjust criticism toward Ahl ? Again yes, but i can understand that as well. They have grown more than a little affection for the company and in some cases they are friendly with the owners as well.

As far as you perceiving a pro Ahl and anti HHV bias, that's possible too. I have been reading the original thread recently, and i can see that some of the early champions of HHV no longer participate in this thread, and have chosen to limit their activity to the HHV thread, so i guess it's a matter of numbers really.

 

[billherbst]

In 1920, more than 100 companies manufactured and marketed automobiles in America. By 1929, that number had fallen to 44. Now we have 3.

This is what happens in growth industries based on new technologies with potentially large markets. Initially, one or two companies kick off a new industry (infancy). After the nascent industry is "discovered" and products begin to sell in larger quantities, entrepreneurs enter the market, first gradually (childhood), then in droves (adolescence). For awhile, wild innovation and diversity reigns. Then, as standardization settles in, political and economic factors force a shake-out, with bigger fish eating littler fish (young adulthood). Eventually, the industry becomes dominated by a small number of manufacturers, wholesalers, and retailers (full maturity).

I see no reason to think that this fairly natural life-cycle, or some version of it, will not occur with the vaping industry.

 

[ratchet62]

In 1920, more than 100 companies manufactured and marketed automobiles in America. By 1929, that number had fallen to 44. Now we have 3.

This is what happens in growth industries based on new technologies with potentially large markets. Initially, one or two companies kick off a new industry (infancy). After the nascent industry is "discovered" and products begin to sell in larger quantities, entrepreneurs enter the market, first gradually (childhood), then in droves (adolescence). For awhile, wild innovation and diversity reigns. Then, as standardization settles in, political and economic factors force a shake-out, with bigger fish eating littler fish (young adulthood). Eventually, the industry becomes dominated by a small number of manufacturers, wholesalers, and retailers (full maturity).

I see no reason to think that this fairly natural life-cycle, or some version of it, will not occur with the vaping industry.

I concur, just hoping its not Big Tobacco who become the few players. Want to keep them out of my life now that I kicked them to the curb.

 

[MikeNice81]

I'm finishing up the filtering of my Hearth & Home Sweet & Savory. It is a very low yield tobacco. It ships dry and that means it soaks up a lot of the solvent. I used 70ml of PG and will be surprised if I get 40ml of extract. I'll be happy if I get 35ml.

My Room 101 San Andres may be the reason I buy a dripper. In a tank it is average. It has potential. However, I pulled out a "Cisco Spec" 510 dripping atty to do a quick test. Holy hell Batman. It did not even taste like the same juice. There was a taste like Mole sauce without the bitterness, a chocolate taste that wowed, then the filler tobaccos came sliding in to give it an almost desert tobacco taste. The whole thing went over the top when the San Andres wrapper dropped right in the middle with it's slightly bitter and smoky earth taste. By that time every pleasure signal in my brain was firing.

I thought it might just be the fact that I'm not use to dripping. Nope, I tried MVJ CAO Italia and Cohiba Red Dot in other 510 drippers and it wasn't nearly the same change. The San Andres just completely changed in the dripper. At a measly 7.6 watts that was my best NET experience hands down. It was enough to turn my mind about dripping. I can't wait to send this out to others. I just can't wait to hear them tell me how crazy I am.

 

[sandman97289]

My Room 101 San Andres may be the reason I buy a dripper. In a tank it is average. It has potential. However, I pulled out a "Cisco Spec" 510 dripping atty to do a quick test. Holy hell Batman. It did not even taste like the same juice. There was a taste like Mole sauce without the bitterness, a chocolate taste that wowed, then the filler tobaccos came sliding in to give it an almost desert tobacco taste. The whole thing went over the top when the San Andres wrapper dropped right in the middle with it's slightly bitter and smoky earth taste. By that time every pleasure signal in my brain was firing.

Hopefully "welcome to the world of dripping"

I don't have the pallet that you do but I've had the same experiences while dripping my own home made NETs. I had dripped before but only very occasionally. Now with NETs though I feel it's the best experience; not only do you worry less about gunky coils but the flavors just pop out. So far my favorite home made extract has been my H&H Anniversary Kake, the Virginias are bright and sweet, the Perique is subtle but does make it's presence felt but the best part is the rum casing, it almost tastes like fine red wine when dripping in my Magma.

 

[Brobdingnagian]

When I met with Adam and Heather from HHV last month, we talked briefly about this. They had worked out the math for what was required if they needed to get this process done. Based on all the flavours they carry, and the different options they offer them in, they would have to send in roughly 1.3 million bottles to be tested and approved.

That's absurd. Testing in each nicotine level? As if the nicotine somehow changes the juices' structures when you add a few extra drops to a different sized bottle?

I'm not getting the logic of needing to do that. Sounds more like what the FDA does with drug (not sure if it's all patent based but there is an approval process) applications: The big drug companies can afford the huge sum to apply to get a new drug approved.

Even if a smaller lab has the cure for any number of diseases ready and able to be synthesized, lack of money to apply to have the drug even reviewed by the FDA is a big playing factor, and will likely stop independent labs without huge sums of money.

(the amount is rather large to apply to get a drug approved)

I forget the specific amount, but in the end; the industry is dominated by money.

Who's going to sell all the medicine for COPD and asthma if PVs take over the tobacco market? Smoking-induced chronic bronchitis? Cancer drugs?

Unfortunately, there is a lot of money to be made on keeping us sick rather than preventing harm.

The Federal Death Administration is well aware of this (but has done nothing to limit ludicrous pricing); drugs that can kill people are prescribed with reckless abandon, people are given pills to counteract the side-effects of other pills, and seizure medication (amongst many other medication) is outright highway robbery. That is, of course, unless you're getting decent income and don't mind spending over $400+ monthly just for one prescription (or have insurance that covers it). That's for the generic.

At any rate.... yeah... .that much testing is simply insane. The thing is, they know it's going to cost vendors that much. Does the FDA require every single strength of every single pill be tested before approving it? I don't know, but they are sure quick to push such band-aids upon the populace. The more new drug applications they get; the more money the agency brings in.

The amount of nicotine it takes is so small.... but I guess you could just mail me the nic separate from the e-liquid in a small bottle if you were to limit orders to larger-sized bottles.

Now there's a loophole I could get behind.

Vendor: "What tests? We've done our flavor tests and liquid tests, and the e-liquids don't contain nicotine or diketones." FDA Agent: "What's that little bottle you're sendin' along, then"? Vendor: "Oh, that's the customer's decision. Whether or not they want to put that nicotine in there is entirely up to them.... unless of course, you'd like to take that choice away from them as well? Wait, maybe you could drive to their door, soon as the postman arrives and test their e-liquid to make sure they don't add too much nicotine, or too little. That'd work too, right?" FDA Agent: "....."