Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux

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Mazinny

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A couple of factors coalesced today that motivated me to change what I've been doing.

First, I've read numerous posts on various threads (including this one) asserting that old-style spaced coils gunk less with NETs than the more recent micro coils many of us have come to rely on. While I can't confirm or deny that, I've seen enough posts claiming that it's true to want to test it for myself.

Second, I have a boat load of bottom-coil clearos that use Kanger EVOD or ProTank heads. Over the past year, I've gotten good at rebuilding them with micro coils wicked with KGD cotton or rayon. Recently, however, I popped for four Aspire Nautilus tanks---two full-size and two minis, and switched them from BDC heads---horizontal dual coils--to the newer BVC heads that use a single hollow vertical coil. The new BVCs are touted as being untouched for flavor and higher-wattage performance. The problem, though, is that the heads are two bucks apiece, don't last long, and are a pain to rebuild.

The Nautilus tanks work beautifully on my new eLeaf iStick, a tiny regulated VV/VW box mod that's very cool---cute as a button, very small, ergonomically nice, vapes from 5-20 watts, and has a big 2200mAh internal 18650, all for $32 shipped. The only downside to the iStick is that the engineers foolishly programmed the chips so that the PWM is calibrated to Vavg rather than Vrms, which means that the iStick runs very hot at low wattage. Basically, none of my many 1.5 ohm EVOD-style clearos work on the iStick. They can't wick fast enough to handle the extra current of the iStick's low-wattage miscalibration. The Nautilus Mini tanks, however, with their hollow vertical coils, are fantastic on the iStick.

Could you expound on this please Bill.

I build my kay/tais between 1.1 and 1.6 and my pt coils between 1.8 and 2.0. For gunky NET's, non contact coils and for less gunky NET's and non NET's a tradition tensioned contact coil. I generally vape between 9-11 Watts depending on air flow. I had noticed that i get a warmer vape with the iStick than with my Vamo and SVD. Are you saying i am actually getting more Wattage than i think i am ? confused :confused:
 

billherbst

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Could you expound on this please Bill.

I build my kay/tais between 1.1 and 1.6 and my pt coils between 1.8 and 2.0. For gunky NET's, non contact coils and for less gunky NET's and non NET's a tradition tensioned contact coil. I generally vape between 9-11 Watts depending on air flow. I had noticed that i get a warmer vape with the iStick than with my Vamo and SVD. Are you saying i am actually getting more Wattage than i think i am ? confused :confused:

Mazinny,

Yes, although this has not yet been formally confirmed by Phil Busardo, it's plain as day that the iStick uses Vavg rather than Vrms to calculate how much voltage is being delivered. Basically, the iStick runs hot at low wattage.

This problem arises with devices that use Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) to regulate the voltage. At higher wattage (15-20W), Vavg and Vrms equations give similar results, but at low wattage, the two measures give different voltages. When the iStick display reads 3.0 volts, it's actually delivering about 4.0-4.2 volts (RMS) to your coil. The display is technically accurate in terms of Vavg equations, but that's not the same as real-world power.

We went through all this in 2012 with numerous VV devices---Young-June Lavatubes, Smoktech VMax, Ovale V8. All those mods run hotter than Vrms calibrated PVs, such as the ProVari. Version 1 VAMOs gave the user the option to use either calibration, but later versions of the VAMO switched to Vrms only, because that's the correct measure. Since then, all new variable voltage/wattage APVs have used Vrms calibration, that is, until the iStick, which is a very cool little unit except for that flaw.
 

Mazinny

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Mazinny,

Yes, although this has not yet been formally confirmed by Phil Busardo, it's plain as day that the iStick uses Vavg rather than Vrms to calculate how much voltage is being delivered. Basically, the iStick runs hot at low wattage.

This problem arises with devices that use Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) to regulate the voltage. At higher wattage (15-20W), Vavg and Vrms equations give similar results, but at low wattage, the two measures give different voltages. When the iStick display reads 3.0 volts, it's actually delivering about 4.0-4.2 volts (RMS) to your coil. The display is technically accurate in terms of Vavg equations, but that's not the same as real-world power.

We went through all this in 2012 with numerous VV devices---Young-June Lavatubes, Smoktech VMax, Ovale V8. All those mods run hotter than Vrms calibrated PVs, such as the ProVari. Version 1 VAMOs gave the user the option to use either calibration, but later versions of the VAMO switched to Vrms only, because that's the correct measure. Since then, all new variable voltage/wattage APVs have used Vrms calibration, that is, until the iStick, which is a very cool little unit except for that flaw.

So at 9 to 11 Watts, will i be getting a more accurate voltage reading with higher resistance coils, or would the resistance not make a difference ?
 

billherbst

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So at 9 to 11 Watts, will i be getting a more accurate voltage reading with higher resistance coils, or would the resistance not make a difference ?

The resistance is a factor in the equations, but only one of three---current (Amps), power (watts), and pressure (voltage). With your specific question, higher resistance increases the deviation. Keep in mind, though, that numbers are just numbers. What matters finally is how happy you are with the vape, whatever the numbers say. The problem some low-wattage vapers are encountering with the iStick is that they get too much power (i.e., burned flavor) at even the lowest setting (5 watts, 3.0 volts) when using the same clearos/tanks that vape fine for them on a Twist/Spinner/MPV/VAMO/etc.

Most users who vape in the 9-11 watt range will simply learn to set the iStick's volts/watts a little lower than they would on other VV/VW mods.
 

Kataphraktos

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Everyone here might want to go read up on the new Evolv DNA40 that was just announced. Phil Busardo has a 1-hour video up on it. If you go this route, you will have to throw away everything you know about atty setup, volts, watts, ohms, coils, etc. Also, if you plan to go this route, pick up some Nickel Ni200 wire now, Temco is already starting to go out of stock as everyone buys the stuff up in preparation for the DNA40.

I suspect NET vapers will see a huge benefit from this chip, as it is all about flavor - the chip is not meant for cloud chasers, it seems.
 

NotSoMini

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+1 for Dover Court -- it is awesome!

I'm also finding I am quite fond of Cavendish tobacco.

This is why I leaned towards Dover Court over Coventry.....with this order. My previous order had Coventry and I had to fight myself over which I wanted with the next order....settled on Dover Court because of the vanilla Cavendish and the fact a smooth tobacco can really, really help me unwind after a stressful day.
 

Mazinny

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The resistance is a factor in the equations, but only one of three---current (Amps), power (watts), and pressure (voltage). With your specific question, higher resistance increases the deviation. Keep in mind, though, that numbers are just numbers. What matters finally is how happy you are with the vape, whatever the numbers say. The problem some low-wattage vapers are encountering with the iStick is that they get too much power (i.e., burned flavor) at even the lowest setting (5 watts, 3.0 volts) when using the same clearos/tanks that vape fine for them on a Twist/Spinner/MPV/VAMO/etc.

Most users who vape in the 9-11 watt range will simply learn to set the iStick's volts/watts a little lower than they would on other VV/VW mods.

Thanks Bill

I actually felt lower resistance coils provided a higher perceived wattage at any set watts for me. Your explanation provided a foundation for me to do some research, and if my math is correct, if you set the Wattage at 10 on the iStick, with a 2 ohm coils the rms wattage ( perceived ) is 12.25, with a 1.5 ohm coil it's 14.1 and with a 1 ohm coil 17.22. Apparently because of the lower limit Vavg of 3.0, you won't be able to get a lower than a 16.64 Wrms (perceived)on the iStick with a 1 ohm coil.

This is all theoretical obviously.
 

billherbst

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Thanks Bill

I actually felt lower resistance coils provided a higher perceived wattage at any set watts for me. Your explanation provided a foundation for me to do some research, and if my math is correct, if you set the Wattage at 10 on the iStick, with a 2 ohm coils the rms wattage ( perceived ) is 12.25, with a 1.5 ohm coil it's 14.1 and with a 1 ohm coil 17.22. Apparently because of the lower limit Vavg of 3.0, you won't be able to get a lower than a 16.64 Wrms (perceived)on the iStick with a 1 ohm coil.

This is all theoretical obviously.

Yes, I knew that my response to your previous question would seem counter-intuitive, but that was because of the particular way the question was phrased. When you're comparing Vavg to Vrms by keeping the wattage constant while increasing the resistance, you're also raising the voltage. As the voltage increases toward the iStick's max of 5.5 volts, the perceived difference between Vavg and Vrms decreases.

What I mean by this is that Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) works by "pulsing" the voltage on and off. If the "duty cycle" is 48 hertz on the iStick (which is what someone measured with a scope), then the voltage turns on and off 48 times per second. VAMOs use a duty cycle of 33 hertz, which is why the "rattlesnake effect" happens---at 33 hertz, the on-off pulses can actually be heard/felt. Anyway, to achieve a certain user-selected voltage (or wattage), the PWM chip varies the ratio between the on-part and the off-part of each pulse. It always fires at maximum voltage (5.5 volts for the iStick), and the voltage is either full-on or full-off. To get an 'average' voltage of 2.75, the PWM chip sets the pulse to equal amounts of time at 5.5 volts (on) and 0 volts (off), resulting in an average voltage of 2.75 (Vavg). However, the coil is getting hit with 5.5 volts 48 times each second, so even though it's getting no voltage at all for half of that second in the 48 pulses where the voltage is 0, the coil doesn't have time to cool down and stays much hotter than if it were getting a constant 2.75 volts (rms) from a battery.

In other words, 2.75 volts in Vavg with the iStick's implementation of PWM feels much higher to the vaper.

No matter what resistance coil you use on the iStick, it's always hitting the coil with 5.5 volts. What varies is how long in each of the 48 pulses/second the voltage is turned off. 50/50 gives a Vavg of 2.75 volts. 60/40 raises the Vavg to 3.3 volts, 70/30 to 3.85 volts, and so on.

All right. That's a lot of explanation to get to the point: If you set the iStick's voltage display to deliver maximum voltage (5.5 volts), then the duty cycle ratio becomes 100/0, meaning that the iStick simply cranks out 5.5 volts and doesn't pulse at all. That's when Vavg and Vrms become identical---at maximum volts/watts. Conversely, the perceived difference between Vavg and Vrms is greatest at the lowest voltage setting.

Now, on to your example of coils with different resistances. Take that 1.0 ohm coil. You put it on the iStick and set the wattage, but wherever you set it, you're hitting that coil with 5.5 volts every time you press the fire button. Unless the coil is completely wet, it's going to get REALLY hot very fast. Most clearos/tanks/RDAs can't wick fast enough to keep a 1.0 ohm coil wet when it's being pounded by 5.5 volts. The result? Burned juice. Even if you set the Vavg to be 3.0 volts (as low as the iStick will go), you're still using a duty cycle of 55/45 (55% of each pulse ON, and 45% of each pulse OFF), so out of each second you're firing the device, the coil is getting hit with 5.5 volts for more than half of that second with enough current (amps) to heat it to red hot almost instantly.

Basically, PWM mods aren't designed for sub-ohm coils because the mods always fire at their maximum boosted voltage. That's why sub-ohm cloud chasers use mechanical mods with batteries that provide 4.2 volts or less. Even then, sub-ohming requires massive air flow and very efficient wicking to keep the coil cool enough to prevent burning the juice. That's also why sub-ohmers do direct-lung inhaling, because that increases the air flow over the coil, keeping it cooler. Those huge, thick clouds of vapor that sub-ohmers love happen because the coil is so hot that it's vaporizing the juice like crazy, and the vaper is drawing it all into his/her lungs.

By the way, hollow vertical coils can handle higher voltage/watts/current because the wicking material is wrapped around the outside of the coil, keeping the coil wetter than if it were wicked with a standard "rope" wick threaded through the center of the coil.

My apologies for hijacking the thread. Back to our regularly scheduled programming...
 

Mazinny

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Thank you Bill, it took me about two hours research this morning to gather some of the knowledge you imparted in your post.

Short of it, i am vaping at about 2 Watts lower on the iStick compared to the svd for the same coil and build. I don't get a burnt taste with my pt's ( with an aerotank base ) until i hit the 11 watt range on the iStick. But i will do a little research on the vertical build.
 

MikeNice81

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Rough day at work. To relax I chopped up my Sons of Anarchy by Black Crown and my Paul Stulac Lord of Albany. Both are now soaking in a hot bath for a little while. Who knew destroying perfectly good cigars good be so relaxing?

I mixed up my Room 101 San Andreas in a proper juice format finally. 50/50 (nearly) with 10.4mg of nicotine per ml. I really enjoy the juice. Even at two days of sitting it has a good earth, hay, spice, chocolate, and citrus flavor profile. It seems to evolve and change a bit but the dark tobacco taste of the cigar stays right in the mix. This should be really nice in a month. I hope I can let it age out a couple of months to see the full character develop.

If I could get through all of this overtime I would be able to send out some samples. Johni, MFT, Boomer, and special lurker, I haven't forgotten you guys.
 

johni

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I had an unused Phoenix v5, to which I drilled the air holes to 1/16 inch. Built with dual microcoils, 1/16' diameter, 9 wraps each of 28 g Nichrome, came out to 0.5 Ω, wicked with KGD cotton. I haven't vaped any straight Perique for a while chose my extraction of H&H Blending Perique to christen the new setup. Dayum, I love this stuff! :headbang: If you enjoy blends that include Perique, you really should try it straight to better understand the flavor it contributes to a blend. River Bottom Fog Sauce St. James Parish is the best vendor version available IMO.
 

AnthonyB

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I have a different take. Drew Estate cigars tend to either fall flat fast or become all about the infusion. Eventually the actual cigar loses out. On the other hand, the Cohiba Red Dot comes through with a beautiful representation of the cigar. The Cameroon wrapper and various filters really shine through. In vape form it reminded me of all the things I loved about the Cohiba without the burning leaf taste.

I agree exotic wrappers come through really well. However, I've tasted simple Dominican natural wrappers that shine in vape form. I think there is something more to it than either of us understand. Then you also have the subjective nature of taste.

Mike if you could put me onto a good Dominican or Nicaraguan in vape form I would appreciate it!

I've yet to try either that made the migration to vape successfully.

Mike being a fellow cigar vape lover like myself I thought might be interested to know that the little talked about, but powerhouse in the cigar net world, Quicknicjuice's Habana Daydream is a divine no nonsense cigar vape. It's one of my favorites. It has an Earthy soil-y deep cigar flavour. It lacks a little in complexity but for what it lacks in complexity it makes up for in an authentically experience stogie vape.

Have you tried it?



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AnthonyB

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Generally I agree that the Multi-flavored/ Cased/ Infused Cigars, like Tatiana, and my favorite to extract Drew Estate, when freshly mixed carry more flavor than a Full-Bodied straight Tobacco type like Nat Sherman 1930, Partagas Black Label. Since I Cold-Macerate with Distilled Water or Potato Vodka, my experience & observations are based on my extraction method and will vary from your own.

IMO the Infused Cigar flavor notes have more High & Mid Range flavors, brightening the taste of a fresh juice, I find Mid-Lower & Base-Bottom flavor notes take longer to develop. The Partagas & Nat Sherman when fresh, were vape-able but nothing to crave for when fresh, and have blossomed into comfortable & satisfying evening vape sessions.

This seems contradictory to allowing multi-flavored juices steep and allow the flavors to blend, and the straight Tobacco-type not needing much steep time. So put that 100ml bottle in a dark closet for the Summer, you've nothing to lose except the use of a juice bottle.

Interesting Toms.

I will hold onto the cohiba extractions and check on them from time to time. Who knows, maybe by Christmas I will have something magical. I am not counting on it though!



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AnthonyB

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Every culture has their way of cleaning the palate during meals. The Japanese use pickled ginger, the French sorbets and some cultures use bread and crackers. From my experience coffee tends to overpower my taste buds and the milder NETs just don't come through. What I've found works is a lightly flavored water with things like cucumber, lemon or even mint.

Great ideas Sandman.

The lemon or mint flavored water is a great idea! It is also a wonderful detox and lower calorie than sports drinks, no matter how diluted. I will be trying that. It ties in well with my calorie controlled diet.

Speaking of cucumber, I was drinking Hemdricks Gin with tonic on the weekend. Hendricks is a top shelf gin. It's not much more expensive than normal gin but superior in quality.

Hendricks is traditionally served with a slice of cucumber in the glass. I found it highly refreshing. I am not a regular drinking man but if I was I think this particular drink would be my palate refreshing drink of choice to accompany my vaping.


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y cherry y

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Chocolate, Prime 15, ashtray.. 3 very different things. I've also seen reports of Neutral lacking flavor, and reports of too much flavor. I need to try this juice to see where I stand!

I think it's like a lightweight Sahara Blend with less Turkish character. It's ultra clean. Took a month or so before I got much from it. From day one, it smells like diluted Sweet Virginia, but the taste at any age is maybe a tenth as powerful. First I didn't care for it, then I got intrigued; who knows where we go from here. Lots of my fave A+ juices I downright disliked at first.
 

Zelphie

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I reviewed Big Spirit about a year ago.. Big Spirit by NETcom

Very impressive cig vape. I haven't had their other cigarette NETs, but have only heard good things about them.

Thanks for the link, great review! Definitely something to try.:D

Speaking of cigarette style NETs, what about Quick nic Analog Light, Analog Red, and Hump Back? Any reviews or opinions?
 
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