While it may not foolproof, I think in cases where the vendor touts "natural tobacco," but doesn't state doing the extraction or "house extraction," it very well may be TA.
Natural Tobaccos
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Here's my short and pithy take on the three popular "mystery" juices:
Bounty Hunter: Twinkies
Boba's Bounty: Oatmeal-raisin cookies
CC House Blend: Red velvet cake
You may have just made a sale for Copper Creek.
I loves me some red velvet cake - crumbs, ice cream, vape ... don't care where
I gets me fix, mate.
Puros and cigarillos work like silk for me, very clean and I'm only using clearos and an eGo Twist if that's of help.
So ... how's that DD?!
thanks Hulamoon, yes that is helpful ... HoL gets good reviews but I wasn't sure they are that good to spend $ on shipping from the UK ... I've only had a very few nets that are good enough that I don't mind burning up a cart after only a few mls ... I like QnC Grandpa's but not enough to throw out clogged carts after only 3 mls ... I don't drip, too fiddly for me, I want quick convenience, thus my tank/clearo preference
I have only vaped a few mls of DD, last night and this morning, a little strong for a morning vape
and the taste does override late night beverages ... DD has great taste, throat hit, nasal bite, all the things you expect in a strong tobacco ... after 40 yrs of smoking my damaged taste buds don't pick up all the nuances, but enough to know DD is in my top favorites ... I've been vaping it from my pyrex tank and a mini Vivi Nova, purchased just for Ahlusion juices ... I've been enjoying DD so much, I actually forgot that I have BGB waiting in the wings
My new fascination is Tobacco Absolute. I have been asking vendors and very knowledgeable vapers about it and had come up empty as to what is really up with it. So I started micro targeting my searches based on a few words that repeatedly crept up and I have amassed a certain amount of info. Of course I can't be 100% positive, but then again, I doubt anyone will be refuting my findings. And since I have also been corresponding today with someone in Deutschland (Germany) that makes essential oils, extracts, herb waters etc., and a flavor chemist in Michigan, I think (for the most part) all of this is solid info.
First off, Tobacco Absolute is from Bulgarian Tobacco, which is a sun-dried Turkish tobacco. The leaves are first extracted into what is called a concrete which is made by "washing" them with hexane (a chemical used to extract essential oil from plant matter). The hexane dissolves the extract-able material from the leaves and then produces a semi-solid wax containing both hexane and the tobacco extract. The hexane is then completely washed out of the concrete with ethanol by heating, stirring and filtering -- this is where the flavoring/odorant is removed from the concrete resulting in a tobacco absolute which is a thick, dark, viscous oil.
(There are a ton of steps in between there and here, but this is as best as I can summarize)
That tobacco absolute can then be diluted to a 1:100 ratio of PGA (pure Grain Alcohol) since TA is not water soluble. Even after that enormously diluted process of TA to PGA, very, very small amounts are recommended for batches of eliquid and should be tested on a drop by drop bases. [I am not a DIYer by any stretch, so forgive me if I can't be specific with the addition of TA in "batches." It's POTENT stuff!]
An interesting note is that virtually all of the tobacco concretes and tobacco absolutes available online are used in the *perfume industry and state its for external use only. However, the purpose it is used for in eliquid is "safe" (I have confirmation through testing from a flavor chemist on Perfumer's Apprentice Tobacco Absolute at a GCMS lab) and it contained no traces of TSNAs or nicotine, and it's HIGHLY diluted. Of course there can always be exceptions, but as a general rule of thumb, there is not much cause for concern. As to whether you believe that "safe" means anything factually, or that being free from TSNAs or nicotine is the end-all-be-all of the constituents to be leery of, that is up to you. Supposedly, the maker of tobacco absolute, for our purposes, is coming from a small group, if not one person at Perfumer's Apprentice.
This is all for entertainment purposes only. I am just a curious vaper -- don't quote me, after all, I am not quoting.
*Interesting etymological note and the actual definition of the term perfume: per·fume
noun
1.
a substance, extract, or preparation for diffusing or imparting an agreeable or attractive smell, especially a fluid containing fragrant natural oils extracted from flowers, woods, etc., or similar synthetic oils.
[French parfum, from Old Italian parfumo, from parfumare, to fill with smoke : par-, intensive pref. (from Latin per-, per-) + fumare, to smoke (from Latin fmre, from fmus, smoke).]
So to say that TA or NETs sometimes have a "perfumey" taste or fragrance, it may not be a negative thing as much as it is a given.
My research has led me to conclude that TA is an NET, it just has many, many more steps and the results between the two are wildly different.
First off, Tobacco Absolute is from Bulgarian Tobacco, which is a sun-dried Turkish tobacco. The leaves are first extracted into what is called a concrete which is made by "washing" them with hexane (a chemical used to extract essential oil from plant matter). The hexane dissolves the extract-able material from the leaves and then produces a semi-solid wax containing both hexane and the tobacco extract. The hexane is then completely washed out of the concrete with ethanol by heating, stirring and filtering -- this is where the flavoring/odorant is removed from the concrete resulting in a tobacco absolute which is a thick, dark, viscous oil.
(There are a ton of steps in between there and here, but this is as best as I can summarize)
That tobacco absolute can then be diluted to a 1:100 ratio of PGA (pure Grain Alcohol) since TA is not water soluble. Even after that enormously diluted process of TA to PGA, very, very small amounts are recommended for batches of eliquid and should be tested on a drop by drop bases. [I am not a DIYer by any stretch, so forgive me if I can't be specific with the addition of TA in "batches." It's POTENT stuff!]
An interesting note is that virtually all of the tobacco concretes and tobacco absolutes available online are used in the *perfume industry and state its for external use only. However, the purpose it is used for in eliquid is "safe" (I have confirmation through testing from a flavor chemist on Perfumer's Apprentice Tobacco Absolute at a GCMS lab) and it contained no traces of TSNAs or nicotine, and it's HIGHLY diluted. Of course there can always be exceptions, but as a general rule of thumb, there is not much cause for concern. As to whether you believe that "safe" means anything factually, or that being free from TSNAs or nicotine is the end-all-be-all of the constituents to be leery of, that is up to you. Supposedly, the maker of tobacco absolute, for our purposes, is coming from a small group, if not one person at Perfumer's Apprentice.
This is all for entertainment purposes only.
I am just a curious vaper -- don't quote me, after all, I am not quoting.*Interesting etymological note and the actual definition of the term perfume: per·fume
noun
1.
a substance, extract, or preparation for diffusing or imparting an agreeable or attractive smell, especially a fluid containing fragrant natural oils extracted from flowers, woods, etc., or similar synthetic oils.
[French parfum, from Old Italian parfumo, from parfumare, to fill with smoke : par-, intensive pref. (from Latin per-, per-) + fumare, to smoke (from Latin fmre, from fmus, smoke).]
So to say that TA or NETs sometimes have a "perfumey" taste or fragrance, it may not be a negative thing as much as it is a given.
My research has led me to conclude that TA is an NET, it just has many, many more steps and the results between the two are wildly different.
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I wanted to make another point about TA being an NET:
While I do consider TA itself to technically be an NET, that is not to say that because a drop of it has been added to a liquid that I would then in turn classify that liquid as a natural tobacco. All I really would say is that juice X is a TA juice. It may just be semantics, but on an internet forum where all we really have is the written word, language needs to be important.
Okay, I will be getting back to vaping my Tobacco Haze, now.
While I do consider TA itself to technically be an NET, that is not to say that because a drop of it has been added to a liquid that I would then in turn classify that liquid as a natural tobacco. All I really would say is that juice X is a TA juice. It may just be semantics, but on an internet forum where all we really have is the written word, language needs to be important.
Okay, I will be getting back to vaping my Tobacco Haze, now.
As soon as I found out TA was extracted from Oriental tobacco I recognized why I like the stuff in juice so much; it's got an almost surrealistic idealized Turkish tobacco exhale...very tasty!
I still haven't ordered any NETs - I'm not ignoring the great advise I got from you all on this thread, but I'm going to have to wait until after the Holidays. Realities of underemployment.... plus I forgot I have a pretty big order of juices coming from China. I'll get there soon, though!
I still haven't ordered any NETs - I'm not ignoring the great advise I got from you all on this thread, but I'm going to have to wait until after the Holidays. Realities of underemployment.... plus I forgot I have a pretty big order of juices coming from China. I'll get there soon, though!
No problem, VM! You really may want to try out Mom&popsvaporshop if you dig TA! I actually want to give you a shout out for being somewhat of the catalyst behind my research! No matter what I say or how I respond to posts, I always take them as seriously, if not more, than something I wrote. You stated your case and I allowed myself to learn from you.
One more thing that just came in: on TA, I have just been informed by one of my sources that TA can also be purchased for dirt cheap from nicotine and tobacco factories because it is a byproduct of nicotine extraction. I have no idea if that is on par with, or used by some to make our TA, but it is interesting nonetheless.
I imagine it is much like how caffeine is sold to the supplement industry by coffee manufacturers after they make decaffeinated batches. (I saw that on PBS or Unwrapped, I think?)
I imagine it is much like how caffeine is sold to the supplement industry by coffee manufacturers after they make decaffeinated batches. (I saw that on PBS or Unwrapped, I think?)
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That's interesting about possible alternate sources of TA. They may be extracted from other tobaccos, like Burleys and Virginias. That would make custom TA blends possible.....hmmmm...
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Great research Dr. Mann...
It does raise one thought that I am pondering after your post, and wanted to throw out there... In regards to maybe why the NETs which we have been discussing differ from those with TA used as a flavoring? I have only tasted a handful of TA juices, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, please. And also the TA juices I have had were probably not good to begin with, so the fact that I personally didn't enjoy them is irrelevant.
Most of the juices we have been sharing and enjoying on this thread are based on a tobacco extraction, that is done with taste in mind as the end result. And as a clarification I will leave the two categories of hybrids (NET juices that are made with pre-flavored tobacco and/or flavored after extraction) out of the discussion. TA on the other hand is extracted with the purpose of using it as a scent in perfumes and other applications of that type. If you were to extract Bulgarian tobacco, like used in TA, with the intent being using it in a e-juice, would it taste different? Does the extraction process for TA, as we currently know it, use techniques that isolate scent molecules as the primary goal? Could this be why it has a perfume-like scent, and an ashy flavor? Do the scent molecules get destroyed at a much lower temperature than the flavor molecules?
I am not trying to clarify what is a NET versus what is not... Just raising the question about tobacco extraction, as used in a NET, and the end result of a purely tobacco tasting juice. I know that there are some good TA products out there somewhere, from reading reviews... I just have not tried them.
And as a side note, I wonder how much difference this makes with other flavorings used in e-juices?
It does raise one thought that I am pondering after your post, and wanted to throw out there... In regards to maybe why the NETs which we have been discussing differ from those with TA used as a flavoring? I have only tasted a handful of TA juices, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, please. And also the TA juices I have had were probably not good to begin with, so the fact that I personally didn't enjoy them is irrelevant.
Most of the juices we have been sharing and enjoying on this thread are based on a tobacco extraction, that is done with taste in mind as the end result. And as a clarification I will leave the two categories of hybrids (NET juices that are made with pre-flavored tobacco and/or flavored after extraction) out of the discussion. TA on the other hand is extracted with the purpose of using it as a scent in perfumes and other applications of that type. If you were to extract Bulgarian tobacco, like used in TA, with the intent being using it in a e-juice, would it taste different? Does the extraction process for TA, as we currently know it, use techniques that isolate scent molecules as the primary goal? Could this be why it has a perfume-like scent, and an ashy flavor? Do the scent molecules get destroyed at a much lower temperature than the flavor molecules?
I am not trying to clarify what is a NET versus what is not... Just raising the question about tobacco extraction, as used in a NET, and the end result of a purely tobacco tasting juice. I know that there are some good TA products out there somewhere, from reading reviews... I just have not tried them.
And as a side note, I wonder how much difference this makes with other flavorings used in e-juices?
I am almost certain it is an aromatic molecule that is sought after. The info that I have read all pertains to scent first and then I had to run that info through a flavor chemist and juice maker sources. Scent and taste are inextricably linked, so it stands to reason that they are flip sides of the same coin -- that is totally an uneducated guess.
However, I think the reason why most TA juices are hybrids is because the taste is less about actual flavor and more about aroma and experience. It is a tricky thing, but a good TA juice, like Tobacco Haze, has a natural vanilla body, a robust smoke feel with an ashy aftertaste. It does in fact illuminate the origins of the word perfume. I am sure I am losing many people, but I just LOVE this juice.
I know most NET makers that we exalt would NOT want to try this, but I think if they mixed their in-house extraction with a careful amount of TA, we could see the makings of a close (you know what) replacement. It's just a theory.
I probably didn't answer your question, but this is new to me. I can have a legit answer soon...as far as "Could this be why it has a perfume-like scent, and an ashy flavor? Do the scent molecules get destroyed at a much lower temperature than the flavor molecules?" All the other info is much more wonky to get a hold of. It was hard enough to get what I got. LOL
Out of curiosity, what does a straight TA juice taste like, with no other flavors, only TA?
All good... It was less of a direct question and more of a topic to throw into the discussion
I am also liking the differentiation of hybrids and pure NETs... It is a cool new twist on the subject 
With TA included, there seem to be 4 categories that fall under the NET umbrella:
- Pure NETs... Think A+, GeJ and W2V
- Flavored Tobacco NETs... Think HHV
- Pure NET bases with flavor added... Think of RY4's with NET tobacco base, or fruit flavored tobaccos, like apple or peach
- TA bases with flavor added, not sure if pure TA juice is available or if it would have to be DIY
With TA included, there seem to be 4 categories that fall under the NET umbrella:
- Pure NETs... Think A+, GeJ and W2V
- Flavored Tobacco NETs... Think HHV
- Pure NET bases with flavor added... Think of RY4's with NET tobacco base, or fruit flavored tobaccos, like apple or peach
- TA bases with flavor added, not sure if pure TA juice is available or if it would have to be DIY
That is what idle time, college boy youtube videos are made for! See cinnamon challenge.
Well some are, some aren't. Or maybe I should say, some of them they claim not to be flavored. If they are infused before extraction, does that count as flavored or not? Not saying that's the case, but.......
I honestly don't know enough about it to have an opinion......
LOL
I think I better clarify, haha... Not straight TA, but normal strength juice with only TA for flavoring.
I am also liking the differentiation of hybrids and pure NETs... It is a cool new twist on the subject
With TA included, there seem to be 4 categories that fall under the NET umbrella:
- Pure NETs... Think A+, GeJ and W2V
- Flavored Tobacco NETs... Think HHV
- Pure NET bases with flavor added... Think of RY4's with NET tobacco base, or fruit flavored tobaccos, like apple or peach
- TA bases with flavor added, not sure if pure TA juice is available or if it would have to be DIY
I thought it needed to be added. I wish the makers would add it. When you get a juice like Patriot, VB and many HHV juices (though I am not saying factually they are or not), the juice shouldn't leave one scratching their head. Just call it a hybrid.
GeJ and A+ use Hybrids, but I think W2V mainly does Pure with maybe one exception (Tobak Especial).
Actually, I think the only straight NETs from GeJ are FC, WT, NP and AG. Ahlusion is DD and BGB.
All of A+ hybrids are labeled in the description as containing "other" natural flavors. It gets real wonky, but we are trying our best to make sense of it all when most of the juicers are not all that forthcoming.
Not mentioned here a lot is Vermillion River. They use mostly hybrids and their straight NETs are not hardcore tobaccos, though they are good, they just taste more like tobacco concoctions. Prime Vaping NETs are straight up, though from my experience, they we really weak, even with extra flavor.
Shadowfax for example has a definite vanilla flavor to it, that is not part of any normal tobacco, it is flavoring that is added in the process of making many pipe tobaccos. My best guess, since I don't have the actually information from HHV, is that they are extracting a Vanilla Cavendish pipe tobacco as the base flavor for Shadowfax? I am only going on their claim that they are only extracted tobacco base, no flavoring added after the extraction.
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