Natural Tobaccos

[VaporMizer]

True... which is why mentioning that there are differences ( again ) has it's place... That is part of what learning the differences is about... If they aren't told there is a difference, they won't know it. Pointing out the differences isn't being some sort of type of snobbishness as has been implied so often, it is a matter of teaching them about them so it is understood and the thread can remain on-topic.

Sure, but one of the differences isn't that Tobacco Absolutes are not extracted from tobacco leaves and that's what I was responding to.

TA is extracted from tobacco leaves in the same way most essential oils are extracted (edit: via steam distillation)....really one of the only ways essential oils can be extracted without burning them (like when smoked). Most NETs are made by soaking the leaves in a solvent much like tea is made.

The reason I keep linking to the Vapenstein thread is because it explains very well that it really shouldn't be an either/or thing. A mixture of extractions and flavoring will yeild a more complete representation. He also plainly explains where almost all vendors go wrong with TA....way too concentrated! I tried one juice (recommended on this thread as a NET by the way) that had enough TA in it for 50 bottles of juice.

 

[rdsok]

In the past, most here have agreed that TA is on topic.

I felt that in the past they agreed that TA was an extract and as such warranted some discussion but that generally there are NET's and then TA's with this thread being more about NET's.

 

[boomerdude]

I believe the OP wrote something along the lines that, " It's all good." His opening post spoke of naturally flavored tobacco juices and extracts. How does a thread evolve into all these rules made up by others and not the OP? What's next, spelling and grammar monitors?

 

[rdsok]

I believe the OP wrote something along the lines that, " It's all good." His opening post spoke of naturally flavored tobacco juices and extracts. How does a thread evolve into all these rules made up by others and not the OP? What's next, spelling and grammar monitors?

Yup... forum police are on their way now...

 

[boomerdude]

Darn it, where's my bug out bag?!

 

[billherbst]

The title of this thread is "Natural Tobaccos." In his original post, Luce refers to "natural/organic/extracted areas" of flavoring.

I agree that TA and its cousin TE are a different category of eliquid flavoring than the macerated liquids for which the acronym NET was coined (on this very thread, I believe), but it seems to me that both distilled natural oils and steeped macerations qualify as Natural Tobaccos. Both are on topic and deserving of discussion to clarify the differences in their derivation and effects on the flavor profiles of juices in which they are used (or misused). Lord knows there are some pretty awful TA-based juices in the retail marketplace, but there are also some lousy NETs out there, too.

I'd like to know which juice VaporMizer had that contained enough TA for 50 bottles. Seriously. I really want to know.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Yup... forum police are on their way now...

You rang?

What differentiates "NETs" from "TA" has nothing to do with the extraction process. NETs don't even have a consistent approach to extraction, so how could TA be exempt on that basis? Now, from what I can tell, the issue comes from taste, presentation and the fact that many TA juices are crude mash-ups of additional flavors (often artificial) that read as somehow awkward and artificial, if not nasty. But, irrespective of how a juice tastes, from my perspective TA is not off the roll-call for NETs. For instance, while not using traditional Flavour Art TA, Velvet Cloud Vapor makes a bonafide TA in-house but yet no one contests the addition of VCV to the thread. No?

Naturally Extracted Tobacco includes TA fo' sho, but TA juices usually all have the same tobacco element; so as far as making posts about it, it could get redundant after awhile considering damn near all vendors but VCV use the same tobacco absolute (or tobacco extract). Personally, I think NET vapers would be well served to try some Moondrop, definitely some Mom and Pops, and of course, Velvet Cloud Vapor if for no other reason then to add some variety to the stash of tobacco vapes. TA can do something to a juice that not too many other ingredients can do--the 5% of TA in Apple Cured from GeJ is an example--but TA is mostly just an ingredient and not necessarily all that worthy of 8,000 posts on its own.

Okay, I will retreat now and go play with my baby. See y'all soon!

 

[Mr.Mann]

Damn you, Bill! hahaha. You beat me.

 

[rdsok]

I will still separate TA, TE and NET's. I do feel the distinction is important so we all are using the same definitions. As an bad analogy... a Ford Escape, Expedition and Explorer are all SUV's and the F-150, F-250 etc are trucks... but they still differ and I wouldn't call a truck an SUV or visa versa ( though I know several that do )

 

[VaporMizer]

The title of this thread is "Natural Tobaccos." In his original post, Luce refers to "natural/organic/extracted areas" of flavoring.

I agree that TA and its cousin TE are a different category of eliquid flavoring than the macerated liquids for which the acronym NET was coined (on this very thread, I believe), but it seems to me that both distilled natural oils and steeped macerations qualify as Natural Tobaccos. Both are on topic and deserving of discussion to clarify the differences in their derivation and effects on the flavor profiles of juices in which they are used (or misused). Lord knows there are some pretty awful TA-based juices in the retail marketplace, but there are also some lousy NETs out there, too.

I'd like to know which juice VaporMizer had that contained enough TA for 50 bottles. Seriously. I really want to know.

Yeah, I actually though I was being conservative at 50 but I just now I thought it through a little better and maybe 8-10 is more like it. It's kind of hard to follow because TA is so concentrated that it needs to be diluted in stages. 1:2 with alcohol to start, then I go something like 1:50 of that into PG and then drops of that into the e-juice. I think most of the TA vendors actually say to go 1:2 with alcohol and then 1:100, then use drops of that.

Anyway, we've already discussed the juice a little....Kentucky something or other. I'm totally conviced that the main tobacco base of it is 1 drop of 1:2 TA per 10 ml of juice. You were not so sure, but also agreed it was probably not a NET as normally defined in this thread. There are other flavors present, but to me the TA was front and center. I actually didn't think it was all that bad but it got tired fast.

My vaping has been pretty much focused on TA for months now...trying lots of concentrations to get it just right before more experiments with adding DIY NETs. I started off trying to do everything at once and always tweaked it into something I really liked, but there was just too many variables to pin down a repeatable recipe.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I will still separate TA, TE and NET's. I do feel the distinction is important so we all are using the same definitions. As an bad analogy... a Ford Escape, Expedition and Explorer are all SUV's and the F-150, F-250 etc are trucks... but they still differ and I wouldn't call a truck an SUV or visa versa ( though I know several that do )

Yeah, I read you rdosk. Distinction is good, but exclusion of credible sources (no matter the taste or extraction) is questionable. One reason that distinction is good and exclusion is not: TA flat-out works sometimes when a lot of "NETs" don't! Give me M&P (TA/TE) over Prime Vaping (NET) any day.

A truck isn't a truck, and an SUV isn't just an SUV--think Plato's the metaphor of three beds--but unless we are talking straight artificial tobaccos, we must be talking about extracted tobacco, with distinction of course.

 

[johni]

Roofing tar and gasoline are both distilled from petroleum but gas won't work on my roof and tar won't work in my truck. Most new vapors that come here and ask questions don't understand that there is difference in TA and NET juices. No one has ever said we don't discuss TAs here, merely making the distinction. Then somebody always has to take offense to that.

 

[VaporMizer]

Yeah, I read you rdosk. Distinction is good, but exclusion of credible sources (no matter the taste or extraction) is questionable. One reason that distinction is good and exclusion is not: TA flat-out works sometimes when a lot of "NETs" don't! Give me M&P (TA/TE) over Prime Vaping (NET) any day.

A truck isn't a truck, and an SUV isn't just an SUV--think Plato's the metaphor of three beds--but unless we are talking straight artificial tobaccos, we must be talking about extracted tobacco, with distinction of course.

Hey Mr. Mann...long time no read!!

I think that excluding TA might also discourage vendors from experimenting with the obvious potential benefits of NET/TA hybrids. NET for a spot-on flavorful inhale, TA for a satisfying essential oil of tobacco boosted exhale....as outlined in the Vapenstein thread.

How's it going?

 

[rdsok]

I don't think I was trying to exclude any... just distinguish between them.

I actually have Prime Vaping on my list of ones to try... it's just on the bottom of the NET vendors. ... and for that matter, I've got Moondrop and VCV on the list to see how they taste... I'll add M&P since I didn't have it listed yet. I'm pretty open to trying most any eliquid if there seems to be some promise including those I feel may be outside of the flavor profile I think like ( Vapenstein Paris for a quick example ). I learned to not exclude much after trying an RY4 ( as a generalization ) for the first time... I really didn't think I'd go for the sweet/tobacco direction and they have proven me wrong even if not all that I've tried were something I liked.

 

[VaporMizer]

Roofing tar and gasoline are both distilled from petroleum but gas won't work on my roof and tar won't work in my truck. Most new vapors that come here and ask questions don't understand that there is difference in TA and NET juices. No one has ever said we don't discuss TAs here, merely making the distinction. Then somebody always has to take offense to that.

But the whole point was that the distinction implied was incorrect.

Tobacco Absolute is extracted from actual tobacco leaves. It was implied that it was not extracted from tobacco leaves.

Essential oils are....essential in my opinion. It's never going to be even close to the tobacco experience without them. Tobacco tea vapors....weak.

Hybrids!

 

[Mr.Mann]

Hey Mr. Mann...long time no read!!

I think that excluding TA might also discourage vendors from experimenting with the obvious potential benefits of NET/TA hybrids. NET for a spot-on flavorful inhale, TA for a satisfying essential oil of tobacco boosted exhale....as outlined in the Vapenstein thread.

How's it going?

Of course! Hell, we all know what our constant back and forth has done for the proliferation of extracted tobaccos. What we wish for, and can talk about with decent clarity, we shall almost always get. I just recently bought a 60 mL of Tobacco Haze (TA) because when it's time for it, NETs sit in a corner looking around at each other wondering how to get that down and dirty.

Me? Oh, I am doing beyond good. As a matter of fact (my facts), I have not only never been better, I don't remember what it was like to not be this awesome. It's something about producing a life that (for me) cleaned my over-worked blackboard with a wet sponge. I am feeling brand new as there is something of me so brand new.

p.s. Thanks for asking.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I don't think I was trying to exclude any... just distinguish between them.

No, not you but the idea--it used to be my idea to exclude TA for being, as I called it, a "concentrate" and not an extract.

We're all just volleying, not sparring.

 

[johni]

Congrats J! We've missed you here!

 

[Mr.Mann]

Congrats J! We've missed you here!

I missed all of you, too.

While I was not here for the first life of this thread (basically, only Luce was), the second act of it has become the best eliquid thread, save for Bill's handiwork.

I won't be able to wade 'til wrinkled like I used to, but I will jump in on occasion if the temperature of the water is right and whether or not I have time to make a splash.

 

[gthompson]

Grats Mann. In a few months you'll have completely forgotten what life was like before.