Nearing disaster in New York - please take action NOW to prevent e-cigarette ban.

[Little Girl]

The FDA doesn't have a bunch of guys sitting around a lab wearing wite coats testing everything that shows up on the market. Getting the FDA to approve something requires research, clinical trials etc. and costs a tremendous amount of $ up front. Then it has to be consolidated, submitted and goes thorough a legal process where the FDA reviews the submission ...

The worst part is that if the FDA does manage to gain control over e-cigarettes, if they even allow them to continue to exist, they will only exist as drug delivery devices. This will mean that in order to get one you'll need a prescription, and it will be up to your doctor to decide whether you need it to begin with and whether you should be allowed to keep using it or not. If he or she feels that you've had it long enough and should be over your addiction, that would be the end of that. Such a scenario would be completely unacceptable.

 

[jimho]

The worst part is that if the FDA does manage to gain control over e-cigarettes, if they even allow them to continue to exist, they will only exist as drug delivery devices. This will mean that in order to get one you'll need a prescription, and it will be up to your doctor to decide whether you need it to begin with and whether you should be allowed to keep using it or not. If he or she feels that you've had it long enough and should be over your addiction, that would be the end of that. Such a scenario would be completely unacceptable.

I don't think you can say that and in the end I don't think it will play out that way at all. I switched to dripping back in June and haven't looked back. It's less troublesome than lighting a match- So if you look at the hardware I use, everything except the atomizer can be found in a flashlight. And the chemicals for juice are widely available. I think we're on the right track trying to get the manufacturers to market these things differently.

Take a look at how they market Herbal Vaporizers- basically the same instrument - most having variable temperature settings. Why can't these be sold and marketed in the same category as legal liquid herbal vaporizers? Get rid of the cartos and filler that has everyone concerned over possible burning and that's basically what we have. If you want to put nic in your juice, you might end up having to buy it separately and add it yourself....

I think the FDA's concern is based on marketing claims that these products are suitable as smoking cessation devices... while many of us can attest to it, because this is a cottage industry, nobody really has put up the resources to conduct and submit a proper study (although it seems that intellicig is on that path) and the fact that generically these are becoming widely available, in the absence of such a study they are raising a yellow flag- their natural response is to try to ban ecigs because there is no documented scientific evidence that they are safe and there is evidence (albeit poorly collected) that they contain carcinogens.

Note:They have the similar arguments when it comes to vitamins and herbal supplements but that industry treads carefully by not making claims of health benefits for their products.....

Our problem is that the FDA has to classify these as either a drug delivery device or a nicotine substitute and in reality it is neither... or both depending on how you want to look at it.

If you want the answer to be neither, sell it and market it as an herbal liquid vaporizer and sell the juice as food flavoring...

 

[kristin]

I think the FDA's concern is based on marketing claims that these products are suitable as smoking cessation devices... while many of us can attest to it, because this is a cottage industry, nobody really has put up the resources to conduct and submit a proper study (although it seems that intellicig is on that path) and the fact that generically these are becoming widely available, in the absence of such a study they are raising a yellow flag- their natural response is to try to ban ecigs because there is no documented scientific evidence that they are safe and there is evidence (albeit poorly collected) that they contain carcinogens.

Note:They have the similar arguments when it comes to vitamins and herbal supplements but that industry treads carefully by not making claims of health benefits for their products.....

Our problem is that the FDA has to classify these as either a drug delivery device or a nicotine substitute and in reality it is neither... or both depending on how you want to look at it.

If you want the answer to be neither, sell it and market it as an herbal liquid vaporizer and sell the juice as food flavoring...

1. The problem is that the FDA defines/interprets "smoking cessation" as "NICOTINE cessation" and those are two VERY different things.

The truth of the matter is that, if you have completely switched to vaping you HAVE quit smoking. You just haven't quit nicotine.

2. Vitimins and herbal suppliments CAN make health claims. All they have to do is print a tiny discliamer that the claims aren't verified or approved by the FDA.

3. The choice is "drug delivery device" or "tobacco product." There is no "nicotine substitute" catagory.

 

[sl_rat]

not that any of those folks actually "represent" us in New York state, but I have put mail in their boxes too. This is what they got:

"
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am writing to you today in order to express my dismay over your vote regarding electronic cigarettes. It appears that there needs to be some kind of detail work with the FDA. I write to you today because of my experience. I have been an electronic cigarette user for a little over one year. This device is the only thing that I've ever had any success with in order to stop smoking. I have not wanted or had a cigarette since I started using my personal vaporizer.
Banning these devices is not going to stop their use. Much like the "War on Drugs" has done very little for stopping drug use. I will not go back to cigarettes, which means that I WILL find a way to purchase supplies for my e-cig. If your intent is to make outlaws of you state's citizens, continue down the path that you're on. Perhaps you might consider talking to some of your constituents and find out what they think. Please represent us.
Thank You,"

 

[Little Girl]

I don't think you can say that and in the end I don't think it will play out that way at all.

I wish I didn't have to.

According to the Wall Street Journal:
"The FDA is fighting to regulate the products as drug-delivery devices, similar to nicotine gums, patches or other nicotine-replacement products. Such a classification would subject e-cigarettes to lengthy and expensive trials to prove they are safe and effective."

I switched to dripping back in June and haven't looked back. It's less troublesome than lighting a match- So if you look at the hardware I use, everything except the atomizer can be found in a flashlight. And the chemicals for juice are widely available. I think we're on the right track trying to get the manufacturers to market these things differently.

I agree that being creative with the hardware marketing can go a long way toward making it impossible to ban the individual parts. I'm still trying to think of a legitimate use for an atomizer, though, although I love your terrarium idea.

Take a look at how they market Herbal Vaporizers- basically the same instrument - most having variable temperature settings. Why can't these be sold and marketed in the same category as legal liquid herbal vaporizers? Get rid of the cartos and filler that has everyone concerned over possible burning and that's basically what we have. If you want to put nic in your juice, you might end up having to buy it separately and add it yourself....

Luckily I'm not worried about the nicotine because I got myself off of it when I switched to vaping. I suspect they couldn't ban nicotine, though, because it has other uses already.

I think the FDA's concern is based on marketing claims that these products are suitable as smoking cessation devices... while many of us can attest to it, because this is a cottage industry, nobody really has put up the resources to conduct and submit a proper study (although it seems that intellicig is on that path).

What Intellicig is doing could very well help the FDA convince the judge that these things should be considered drug delivery devices.

and the fact that generically these are becoming widely available, in the absence of such a study they are raising a yellow flag- their natural response is to try to ban ecigs because there is no documented scientific evidence that they are safe and there is evidence (albeit poorly collected) that they contain carcinogens.

Yes, in trace amounts, which means they are present in such a small quanity as to be considered irrelevant by the FDA's own standards, and the same trace amount (or more!) is found in water, cheese, beer, and many FDA approved products, including smoking cessation products.

Our problem is that the FDA has to classify these as either a drug delivery device or a nicotine substitute

Other than it being a toss-up between a drug delivery device and a tobacco product, this is my point exactly. The FDA could right now already be regulating e-cigarettes because they already have the power to regulate tobacco products. But they don't want to. They desperately want to push to have electronic cigarettes classified as drug delivery devices. This doesn't make any sense (or at least only makes sense from a financial point of view) and it's very frustrating.

If you want the answer to be neither, sell it and market it as an herbal liquid vaporizer and sell the juice as food flavoring...

Yes, I think this is the right direction to be going in, although I don't think it will fully solve it. We need more terrarium-like ideas!

 

[youtubecommercial]

Got these links in my e-mail:

FDA Warns Five E-Cigarette Makers, Says Products Need FDA Approval
UPDATE: FDA Warns Five E-Cigarette Makers, Says Products Need FDA Approval - WSJ.com


FDA, U S Food and Drug Administration
Electronic Cigarettes

 

[paise]

How did policing my children in my place as a parent suddenly give the FDA the right to over-step my boundaries as a parent? The FDA isn't paying for our expenses like housing, groceries, utilities, clothing, etc... I have a 23yo and a 13yo and neither are smokers. They have no desire to become smokers. Both of them, along with my husband, is thankful for the e-cigarettes because it has helped me give up analog cigarettes for more than a year now! I reached my 1-year anniversary without analog cigarettes.

I am an adult and I feel and believe that as an adult, I am entitled to make choices for myself without Big Brother demanding to take my choices out of my hands as if I were a child and the FDA is my parent! My parents have not told me what to do in more than 2 decades and even when they did, I was the mature one because I great up with an alcoholic father who was physically, emotionally, and verbally abusive and then an enabler as a mother who refused to step up to protect the children (a younger sibling and myself; I ended up raising the younger sibling on my own).

As an adult, I should have the right to choose if I want to use an e-cigarette or not without interference from the government. I have a brain. I can decide for myself. I don't need or want a governmental FDA parent telling me what I can or cannot do in the comfort of my own home with items purchased using money I earned. That alone should be sufficient enough reason to tell the members of the FDA to .... on the matter.

 

[Little Girl]

Got these links in my e-mail:

FDA Warns Five E-Cigarette Makers, Says Products Need FDA Approval
UPDATE: FDA Warns Five E-Cigarette Makers, Says Products Need FDA Approval - WSJ.com


FDA, U S Food and Drug Administration
Electronic Cigarettes

Why do I get the feeling they're only doing this to improve their chances in court? I understand why they sent some of those letters (some of those suppliers were making risky claims they couldn't back up with lots of cold, hard, scientific evidence), but the timing on this is suspicious. It's all a bunch of game playing...

 

[ACM]

Any battle in New York is likely to be lost. New York politicians don't listen their constituents. And New York State's policies tend to follow those of New York City, which is run by an arrogant, autocratic mayor. Right now, NYC is preparing to extend its smoking ban to outdoor spaces (parks and beaches). Already there are apartment buildings that are banning smoking in people's apartments. An all-out e-cig ban seems very likely at some point in the future, and I don't think there's much that can be done to prevent it. I'm not saying we shouldn't keep trying, but don't hold the breath that you've improved by switching to e-cigs.

 

[DC2]

Did you even read the thread?

 

[KYFlyer67]

Once the first ban passes, which sadly I think will be soon, we need a website with a big counter at the top that shows the number of estimated deaths of smokers who lost their personal vaporizer alternative thanks to politicians, FDA, etc. By the way, I really think we need to DROP the term e-cig in favor of PV or personal vaporizer. Our habit has nothing to do with cigarettes or tobacco.

To do this we need 2 things: 1 - the formula to estimate the number of deaths. 2 - a URL for the website.

#1 - the formula. This one's complicated and we can do no better than an educated guess. We have to estimate the number of e-cig users in a given ban region. Then we have to estimate the percentage of e-cig users in that area that will return to tobacco when their habit becomes illegal. Then we can use published statistics to estimate how many of them will die early.

#2 - the URL. We need suggestions here. It should be catchy. Along the lines of: www.deathbyFDA.com, www.DeathForTaxDollars.com, etc. - you get the idea.

#3 - Sorry - I said there were 2 things, but the 3rd important component will be DONATIONS to fund hosting of the website along with advertising of the URL. Some of the advertising can be free in the form of calls and emails to as many media outlets as possible.

I offer my time and money as much as possible for this cause.

By the way, I don't mean to make light of death by tobacco in this post. I'm completely serious about everything I've said. I've lost loved ones to COPD and lung cancer. My wife and I quit smoking and switched to PV's over 5 months ago because we want to be here for our children as long as possible, and well, we don't want to die an early coughing wheezing death. How dare the government take away our freedom to a healthier alternative!! This really pisses me off.

 

[Starlinka]

Michael Eriksen, ScD, the former director of CDC’s Office of Smoking and Health and an FDA adviser warned: “I have seen no evidence that people switch from tobacco cigarettes to e-cigarettes or other smokeless tobacco products. If you look at how smokeless products are marketed, they are sold as something to use at times you can’t smoke. The implication is you will increase nicotine exposure, not reduce smoking,”

New York Moves Towards Total E-Cigarette Ban | Tobacco Facts.
Maybe he needs the link to this site ?

 

[suddenly]

This looks like the same article I read months ago. I wonder if they just reprinted it.

 

[Dawolf]

I really think we need to DROP the term e-cig in favor of PV or personal vaporizer.

Could not agree more. Just an observation, I was not aware that NJ had included "Electronic Cigarettes" in their indoor smoking ban until recently. I regularly would bring my e-cig with me to bars (It was a white Njoy that looked just like a Cigarette)...I would puff and inevitably a manager would come up and ask me what I was doing and after some chatter, they would usually say "Vape On"...some would even ask me where they could get one for a loved one, ask to try it etc. Before you know it the whole bar is talking about electronic cigarettes.....so you can see that everywhere you go with one of these, it draws attention and when I got other equipment, 510 (All black) Egos, KR808 (Black also) I moved to stealth vaping and calling it a personal vaporizer....the last few times I got asked what is that you are smoking and I said "its a personal vaporizer" and they would say "oh so that is vapor?" yes...and that would be it. No big fuss, not a second thought. No feathers ruffled, no jealous smokers mad cuz I don't have to leave my seat to get my nic fix, but they have to go outside!.

I can definitely see where getting rid of the "e-cig" moniker in favor of PV or Personal vaporizer etc. would help out alot. As to what it will take? Alot of Marketing (Web sites, Videos etc.) but more importantly it is getting involved, every last one of us. The National Vapers Club takes on these fights everytime, everywhere they come up. If there is a Ban hearing, someone will be there, but they can't be everywhere. They need our support and donations, local chapters etc. I have wanted to get involved in some way to try to prevent the travesty of justice that is now laid out on our doorsteps, and bans are inevitably going to happen if they are left uncontested. I looked and found the NVC and I was happy I did. I found a group of very Pasionate and dedicated people that are giving in some cases every spare moment of time that they have to the cause.

Supporting them is a great way to be active in the fight and help insure our right to vape.

 

[Poeia]

The justification for anti-smoking regulations was protecting non-smokers from second-hand smoke. Well, I no longer expose anyone to second-hand smoke. In the meantime, the FDA wants me to stop using a PV because it has not been proven to be 100% safe and, instead, they want me to quit smoking using Chantix which has been proven to cause how many deaths?

It all defies logic.

 

[jimho]

The justification for anti-smoking regulations was protecting non-smokers from second-hand smoke. Well, I no longer expose anyone to second-hand smoke. In the meantime, the FDA wants me to stop using a PV because it has not been proven to be 100% safe and, instead, they want me to quit smoking using Chantix which has been proven to cause how many deaths?

It all defies logic.

I wouldn't say it defies logic
1) We've got a new technology that threatens two well established industries (Big Tobbaco and Big Pharma)....
2) we've got a new product that threatens to take a large bite out of a substantial source of revenue for state, local and federal governments
3) we've got a product that doesn't really fit into the framework of a regulatory agency that was concieved to regulate against snake oil salesmen and to ensure the safety of our food supply.
4) In case you haven't noticed, despite the fact that 15-25 percent of the population smokes, smoking has been villified and non smokers don't care about smokers' rights and don't want to hear about it. As far as most of them [non smokers] are concerned:

• They don't care about smokers,
• they don't want their kids to start smoking
• they don't want to breath our second hand smoke
• they don't want to be responsible for the bill when smoking effects our health
• but they are happy to tax us to death (till we die from smoking) because we're dumb enough to keep smoking when everyone knows how bad it is for you. Most don't understand why we don't just quit.

So we're fighting an up hill battle against big business, federal-state-and local government, regulators and a large segment of the general public who have been dissinformed by the former.

I heard an interesting speach today where the speaker was talking about living within the rules of society despite the fact that sometimes the rules are just idiotic. The speaker started out with the story behind Arlo Guthrie's "Alice's Restaurant" and how in the end, after being drafted and passing his physical (despite trying every which way to fail), he was put on the bench with the criminally insane because he had been convicted of littering.
The speaker then went on to tell a story about a guy that bought a store and wanted to put a sign in front- the store owner went to his town hall to get a permit for the sign and was told by the village clerk that he needed to take down the old sign first and would need a permit for it- of course there was no sign and you can figure out where the story went....

Point being we're not going to win this near term on the grounds that it's smart and it makes sense.

Logic has nothing to do with intelligence or common sense

 

[jimho]

Late night curiosity.... Lots of good arguments here but I'm starting to wonder -

There are more and more suppliers out there every day making a nice markup on the products we're buying from juice to hardware...I'm not complaining about it and I know they need to cover risk and customer service, but I don't understand why we're not seeing more from them in terms of cooperation to really fight this thing.

If they tacked on a small amount to each transaction - even volutarily there would be funding to do the kinds of research needed to address the FDA's concerns....

Perhaps their strategy is let em pass a law and then to test it in court?

 

[evilferret]

The justification for anti-smoking regulations was protecting non-smokers from second-hand smoke. Well, I no longer expose anyone to second-hand smoke. In the meantime, the FDA wants me to stop using a PV because it has not been proven to be 100% safe and, instead, they want me to quit smoking using Chantix which has been proven to cause how many deaths?

It all defies logic.

There's still a chance you're exhaling nicotine into the air (unless you're the lucky few who made the switch to 0 nic).

Can you imagine blowing 30 mg nic vapor clouds into a restaurant with children? Multiple vapers at the same time? I'm okay with indoor bans but not with outdoor bans (as long as I'm not hassled at home).

But aside that, whats the current situation in New York? I vape in public and haven't been hassled but I've been thinking about dedicating a small part of my storefront to ecigs.

I have tons of friends from Korea who have used ecigs in Korea and would like to be able to purchase it here.

So if anybody can hit me up with any updated info on the sale of ecigs in NYC would be great (I assumed it was banned but I still see mall kiosks selling them).

Thanks

 

[ACM]

Did you even read the thread?

I assume that was directed at me. I let my frustration lead me to rant and add little of any real value to the conversation. Like all of us, I get so bugged by the whole issue of bans, in general, so please forgive me for my essentially useless post.

 

[DC2]

I assume that was directed at me. I let my frustration lead me to rant and add little of any real value to the conversation. Like all of us, I get so bugged by the whole issue of bans, in general, so please forgive me for my essentially useless post.

My point was that if you read the thread you will see that we actually are able to do something about this stuff, that we have had success, and that we definitely need to keep fighting. I think it is extremely important that we all understand that.