Need help with new ways to get what I'm missing!

[niczgreat]

I highly recommend you try Snuff. It's the only alternate to smoking I've tried that gives you the Nicotine Spike of a Cigarette. I use all three Snuff Snus and e-cigs and between them have been a very happy camper.

Northerner.com is a great place for Snus or getsnus.com
Northerner has a limited selection of Snuff so you could buy both.
The Poschl Ozona President is highly recommended (by me) as a first snuff selection.
My absolute favorite is the Toque Quit which is not sold at Northerner.

 

[JakeStew]

The problem with adding MAOIs to juice is tha it makes it that much more addictive. Further these 'natural' MAOIs are coming from where an rated in purity how? These are drugs that cn be dangerous in inaccurate dosages and who the hell knows what vaping them will do?

Want to have the FDA shut this industry down? Just start advertising this! I am uncomfortable with this even being posted as I am sure there are eyes out trying to see what vapers are up to!

I've got some friends investigating herbal tinctures and the like in PVs. Personally I don't reccomend it. Vaporizing any kind of plant tar can't be good for you or your PV.

I don't even test anything unless it's been extracted properly and run on a column. (column chromatography)

Sure those MAOIs have the potential to be much more addicting than nicotine alone, but PVs are not smoking cessation aids in the traditional or legal sense. They aren't about breaking an addiction, just feeding it through a much safer form.

As such I see no reason that non-harmful components found in tobacco shouldn't be considered as juice additives.

Norharman seems to be the most potent MAOI in tobacco and it's quite safe. It's short acting and reversible. It also will produce overdose symptoms the user can recognize long before you're in any real danger.

As far as dosing, the user is in control. No juice vendor can controll how much juice their users use or how much of a dose they get in total.

As for the FDA shutting down the industry... Well there's not much I can do about that. Further I'm a researcher, not a juice vendor. I don't ever intend to sell any juice to any consumers. If unequivocal results are positive I'll probably make juice available to other researchers. If the FDA doesn't like that they'll have to get the DEA to schedual the ingredients or they can approve them as prescription only drugs. Even then I don't claim to be producing any specific drug, only an herbal extract purified through column chromatography or HPLC.

I also plan to look into other medications that can be vaporized safely and effectively. Albuterol, duoneb, etc. are often used through expensive and bulky nebulizers. A portable version could significantly improve the quality of life for people on these meds.


-Jake

 

[JakeStew]

Jake -- I read your posts on the research you've been planning and am following it with interest.

One note of possible interest: I'm on a standard pharmaceutical MAOI (started last year while still smoking), and I'm one of those people who still isn't getting enough from PV nicotine ... even though I'm taking something that is inhibiting a significantly larger proportion of MAOA + MAOB than tobacco would. My symptoms of tobacco cessation are similar to those of others who have had troubles switching to vaped NRT. I may be an outlier, but there are other non-MAOI, non-nicotine alkaloids in tobacco that must be contributing to the total effect for some of us.

All MAOIs are not the same. The main one I'm focusing on, norharman, has a long history of use as a medicine and as a psychoactive. It's not just a chemistry problem and the actual felt effects may have little or nothing to do with it's MAOI activity. It probably has something to do with it, but simply inhibiting monoamine oxidase is not the whole picture.

One ultimate goal is producing a completely effective tobacco replacement therapy. There've been billions spent producing the crap that's out there today. PVs already seem to have a success rate easily tripple the most effective therapies out there.

They are in fact still working on therapies like the nicotine vaccine, which is in phase IIb clinical trials at the moment. They've spent millions to produce a treatment which is no better than what's out there. The top third of vaccine responders STILL only had about a 30% chance of quitting! So it's real effectiveness is probably around 15%, barely better than cold turkey.

Yet, according to polls on this site people are having about an 80% quit rate! With more sophisticated juices I bet you could get it above 90%. With results that good it shouldn't be hard to get everyone quit and reap the societal benifits.


-Jake

 

[DVap]

I could have made a bundle selling a liquid containing the whole alkaloid spread, but have not due to reasons well stated by madame Psychosis.

snus is where it's at.

 

[rejoice]

I have a question. What is the difference in snuff and snus?
Some say get snus and other say snuff. Is there a difference?

 

[DVap]

I have a question. What is the difference in snuff and snus?
Some say get snus and other say snuff. Is there a difference?

Snus comes self-contained in a pouch and goes under the lip. Snuff is placed in a nostril. Both are very effective.

 

[rejoice]

I have been searching the web and finding information of the snuff. There is this thing called a bullet. I found interesting. Now I have never ever tried snuff and do not know much about it. I would like to try it. Here is a website on the bullet.
Snuff Bullets: wellcoolstuff.com

 

[JakeStew]

I could have made a bundle selling a liquid containing the whole alkaloid spread, but have not due to reasons well stated by madame Psychosis.

snus is where it's at.

Can you point me to that?

The whole spread is not the way to go. Besides just adding junk that will probably gum up the atty there will also probably be a host of undesirable alkaloids and tobacco-specific nitrosamines.

I've got gallons of the crap sitting around waiting for a proper identification of desired fractions.


-Jake

 

[DVap]

Can you point me to that?

The whole spread is not the way to go. Besides just adding junk that will probably gum up the atty there will also probably be a host of undesirable alkaloids and tobacco-specific nitrosamines.

I've got gallons of the crap sitting around waiting for a proper identification of desired fractions.

-Jake

It's an involved (but generally superficial) task for me to start with tobacco and end up with the alkaloids minus everything else in tobacco. The rub is that nicotine alone doesn't do the trick for many, but I along with those who've tried it have found that the isolated tobacco alkaloids offer greatly enhanced satisfaction/relief. Due to some obvious concerns about annoying the wrong entities, I've not been selling any of the alkaloid isolate, but instead pointing to snus, which has offered considerable relief to some of those trying to stay off of cigarettes but not really getting relief from nicotine alone.

Obviously, smoking provides the whole spread of alkaloids, TSNA's, and thousands of other components of smoke, so the alkaloid isolate represents a minute fraction of what is obtained in smoke.

The tough question is "what are the desired and undesired alkaloids?". Or to put in another way, none of this stuff is "good" for you, so what mix of chemicals might provide the "essense" of smoking while eliminating thousands of useless and harmful components? Or how can we at least reduce the harm for those who simply can't quit?

Unfortunately, it's not an easy question to answer.

The whole topic got beaten to death in this gargantuan thread.

 

[JakeStew]

So, just to get this straight... You are certain the "missing piece" is contained in the alkaloid fraction and isn't in some other fraction?

That's been my assumption, but I've been trying to figure out if there are other non-alkaloid fractions that might also be important.

I've been very hesitant to just start bioassaying random alkaloid fractions. I'd hate to end up accidentally consuming a carton's worth of some random fraction in one sitting. It would really suck to find out you've isolated the most carcinogenic fraction and sucked down a carton's worth.

I've done some TLC on the alkaloid fraction and there seems to be quite a few components there. There's also probably just as many that aren't easily visualized. I haven't yet done much to develop the spots.


-Jake

 

[Bogalu]

For 16mg nic juice, what would be the nicotine mg content comparable to it in snus?

 

[Madame Psychosis]

For 16mg nic juice, what would be the nicotine mg content comparable to it in snus?

I vape 12mg and the 4mg General Minis and 5mg Mocca Minis work for me, if that helps.

I would suggest that you buy a small range of levels (and flavors) at the low-ish end and see what works.

If you're vaping around the same time, keep the snus nicotine low; it's much easier to overdo nic if you're using multiple sources.
(That said, I find vaping more relaxing when I'm using it to chase snus. It just takes some caution; you don't want to be up all night twitching.)

The nice thing about snus is that the tins are fairly inexpensive, so you don't drop much money to try a few.
Discreet snus has fruit flavors, if that's what you're used to in hookah.

Read or ask questions in the Smokeless Tobacco forum if you're curious for more brands or places to buy or other tips. Others are far more experienced than I am!

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

So, just to get this straight... You are certain the "missing piece" is contained in the alkaloid fraction and isn't in some other fraction?

That's been my assumption, but I've been trying to figure out if there are other non-alkaloid fractions that might also be important.

Hi Jake. For a simple answer...yes, the missing piece, aka "x-factor", is in the tobacco alkaloids. That's not to say that some other chemical found in cigarette, pipe or cigar tobacco doesn't play a role in the enhancement, but the alkaloids contain the psychoactive salad some of us need to maintain mental balance. I have functioned for years on strong coffee and smokes to stay mentally "normal". After switching to vaping I easily left the smokes behind. Around a month afterwards I started to slide into depression, a condition I was already familiar with and was aware of the symptoms. I assumed my body would eventually make the necessary corrections and all would be fine, but I was wrong and the condition got exceedingly worse (my story is told in the thread DVap recommended). All that had changed was my lack of cigarettes, and the weapons grade nic I was using wasn't compensating. I was one who tested DVap's whole tobacco alkaloids e-liquid (aka "WTA"). Within 24 hours of receiving it my appetite was back and I was mentally focused and functioning at a normal level. It worked for me like a cigarette would without all the other nasties associated with a burning cigarette. Magical is an understatement. For me, DVap's theory tested positive. Unfortunately, unless WTA liquid becomes commercially available, my options are anti-depressants or tobacco. I refuse to deal with the side effects of the drugs and would rather risk going back to smokes, however Swedish snus has what I need in abundance and has been proven much safer than burning tobacco or any drug on the market.
Bogalu, go to getsnus.com and get a free can of Swedish snus ($1 for shipping), then suppliment with a little vape. It'll put your head back on straight and you'll start enjoying life again.
I always enjoyed smoking, but after 31 years it seemed wise to try a safer alternative. That's why I started vaping and why I now vape and snus. I'm having my cake .

 

[JakeStew]

Thanks twisted for your excellent and detailed post.

I extract my own nicotine, so I have plenty of denicotinized alkaloid fraction available. I'm using a different process than DVap, so as soon as I work out the proper workup I'll post results.


-Jake

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Thanks twisted for your excellent and detailed post.

I extract my own nicotine, so I have plenty of denicotinized alkaloid fraction available. I'm using a different process than DVap, so as soon as I work out the proper workup I'll post results.


-Jake

You're welcome, sir. The important thing is getting what we need and you sound like you're headed in that direction. I look forward to your future posts .

 

[angelique510]

I'm wondering if I can get what I need from something other than snus. I have some Stonewalls, and they taste terrible. (it helps if I vape atomic fireball juice when I have one in my mouth) I take Effexor which should help the depression, but it never did even when I was smoking. None of the SSRIs and tetracyclics have helped. I think I have tried them all over the years. It takes the edge off, but that's not good enough. But I've never tried MAOIs. I am terrified to take prescription MAOIs - so many side efects and contra-indications (like some of my favorite foods).

Is there an herb other than tobacco that has natural MAOIs? My research hasn't turned up anything helpful. St John's Wort was pretty much useless. I am familiar with herbal remidies, and was raised on them. I'm rather at a loss as to what might do the trick.

Any help would be appreciated.

~A

 

[whimzkool]

I have a separate cartomizer filled with homemade passionflower extract. When I have been sucking on the PT too long, I just pop that one one there, take a few puffs, and I'm sated. I have dosed the liquid itself, however, it just ends up ruining the cartoz faster. So, just stick with the dedicated carto. As it is just a cartomizer, no equipment ruined.

 

[AlexTM]

@angelique510, you could always try snuff.

If it is the salty taste of snus that you don't like (I don't), northener.com (and probably some more snus vendors) has Oliver Twist, which is far less salty and much more like liquorice. (It's in their "Tobacco Bites" section.)
If you can get your hands on it, you might also want to try Grimm und Triepel Kautabak (chewing tobacco; not that you have to chew or spit). If you happen to like liquorice, those are heaven. MacBaren also produces something very similar.

They do contain less FactorX, though, I think.

 

[dgriego]

I have been searching the web and finding information of the snuff. There is this thing called a bullet. I found interesting. Now I have never ever tried snuff and do not know much about it. I would like to try it. Here is a website on the bullet.
Snuff Bullets: wellcoolstuff.com

You can purchase some snuffs that come in a little plastic bullet, it will dispense a portion that you can just toot up the nostril.

You can also buy metal and plastic bullets that you can fill with your own snuff choices. I have a metal one but do not use it. I carry mine in a little snuff box.

Two great places to buy snuff are

Nasal Dry Snuff, Accessories : Nicotine Rush

and

Mr. Snuff | Free Snuff Every Order | 99c Specials | Nasal Snuff | Dry Snuff

Both give you a free sample of something with each order. Nicotine rush is very fast with shipping, Mr Snuff is fast with shipping.

Mr Snuff also gives discounts to military persons and their families but you need to email him with details and he will send you a code.

 

[martha1014]

Is snus as dangerous as regular tobacco you put in your mouth. I know there are cases of mouth cancer from oral tobacco use as a matter of fact one of my husband's close friends got mouth cancer and died from this. He went through a long difficult battle before he died.

Do you think this can cause cancer. What mg of nicotine were you vaping. Maybe a higher strength will help. I smoked for 40 years and had a little trouble at first but it resolved after a few weeks. Pharmacy MAO are rarely prescribed because of all the side effect. They now use SSRI instead. I am not sure if any of these anti-depressant will work but it could not hurt anything.