Need help with new ways to get what I'm missing!

[JakeStew]

> Is snus as dangerous as regular tobacco you put in your mouth.

tobacco and tobacco products that come into contact with mucous membranes are known to cause cancer. No point in mincing words there. Tobacco causes cancer plain and simple.

> Pharmacy MAO are rarely prescribed because of all the side effect.

There are many MAOIs out there and they are still frequently prescribed for a number of conditions, including depression. Unless you're eating a pound of cheese a day and taking one of the hardestcore MAOIs people rarely have any problems.

> Is there an herb other than tobacco that has natural MAOIs?

Syrian Rue is the best known and probably the most potent. People have eaten and smoked the seeds for a long time and they are well known to be psychoactive via those routes with standard dosages.


-Jake

 

[Stubby]

Is snus as dangerous as regular tobacco you put in your mouth. I know there are cases of mouth cancer from oral tobacco use as a matter of fact one of my husband's close friends got mouth cancer and died from this. He went through a long difficult battle before he died.

Do you think this can cause cancer. What mg of nicotine were you vaping. Maybe a higher strength will help. I smoked for 40 years and had a little trouble at first but it resolved after a few weeks. Pharmacy MAO are rarely prescribed because of all the side effect. They now use SSRI instead. I am not sure if any of these anti-depressant will work but it could not hurt anything.

There is no connection to any oral cancer with snus, and this after decades of studies in Sweden. In general oral tobacco is much less risky then smoking, even for oral cancers. Snus is at the top of the list for oral tobacco because it is made pacifically to lower the TSNA content (The toxins in tobacco that cause cancer). It's air cured as opposed to flu cured and pasteurized as opposed to fermented.

For some of us higher mg e-liquid is not the answer. The purified type nicotine found in e-liquid is unsatisfying for many us. It's basically the same type of nicotine found in nicotine gum and patches. Supplementing vaping with a tobacco reduced harm products has been a great help to me and many others.

 

[Stubby]

> Is snus as dangerous as regular tobacco you put in your mouth.

Tobacco and tobacco products that come into contact with mucous membranes are known to cause cancer. No point in mincing words there. Tobacco causes cancer plain and simple.



-Jake

Wrong Jakestew. Bad information on your part. As said above, there is no connection between snus and any oral cancer. You would do well to do some research before giving out this type of misinformation.

There is no nicotine product that is risk free, even PV's. If you want, or need, to keep using nicotine/tobacco, reduced harm products via snus, nasal snuff and dissolvables are far less risky then smoking.

 

[olderthandirt]

...
Tobacco and tobacco products that come into contact with mucous membranes are known to cause cancer. No point in mincing words there. Tobacco causes cancer plain and simple.

....

Plain and simple would include known carcinogens in shampoos, carpets and and and...

Syrian Rue used for ages. As has Salvia, Amanita, Mescaline. Not for the faint of heart.

Plain and simple is reduced harm, exactly what the use of Swedish Snus offers. Tobacco can cause cancer as can a plethora of other common items many people come into contact with each and every day.

Agreed completely, "No point in mincing words". Alternative ways to keep smoking at bay may not be perfect but for those that need an extra bit of help, the various forms of Smokeless Tobacco can be lifesavers!

 

[Brewster 59]

Well my friend you sound like your a canidate for snus. I know you say you are worried about gum disease but do a google search like I did on snus and you will find out that while there is not a no risk tob the stats on sweedish are very good for being a lower risk nic delivery system. Smoking tob is the highest risk you can take. I want you to know you are not alone in what you are experiencing. Good luck.

 

[angelique510]

Syrian Rue used for ages. As has Salvia, Amanita, Mescaline. Not for the faint of heart.

Sage, shrooms, and peyote - should have quite a kick! I'd rather drink Aunt Abby and Aunt Martha's elderberry wine. thank you very much.

I think not. Herbal medicine is can be very benificial, used propery, but it does have a history of craziness. Some of the things that were in old snake oil mixtures would send the most hardened addicts of today running for cover.

The Harmala does bear more research. Unfortunately, all I have is an abridged Culpeper's, so I have to wade through the internet.

You folks are a wealth of information - or at least point me in the direction of the info I am wanting. Thank you.

~A

 

[Madame Psychosis]

> Pharmacy MAO are rarely prescribed because of all the side effect.

There are many MAOIs out there and they are still frequently prescribed for a number of conditions, including depression. Unless you're eating a pound of cheese a day and taking one of the hardestcore MAOIs people rarely have any problems.

At least in the U.S., even most psychiatrists have little experience with the MAOIs anymore. Their use has petered out with the newer SSRIs and SNRIs and on-brand atypicals. (Probably a combination of the perceived risks and dietary restrictions, and the fact that the old MAOIs all went generic so no one's promoting them.) Yet some people only find relief with the MAOIs.

There are a total of three MAOIs still prescribed for depression in the US: Parnate (tranylcypromine), Nardil (phenelzine), and Emsam (selegiline transdermal patch).
(Marplan [isocarboxazid] has been more or less discontinued. There's also Manerix [moclobemide] but it's not available in the U.S.)

All three of these pharmaceutical MAOIs require the MAOI diet (no tyramine, meaning no aged cheese, preserved meats, soy sauce and other fermented foods, etc). There's really no two ways about it. You don't mess with hypertensive crises.

That said, Emsam (the MAOI patch) is a recent invention that I'd suggest checking out if you're interested in an MAOI antidepressant. The patch form means it goes straight into the bloodstream, which creates fewer interactions with food in the gut (much less likelihood of dietary interactions). The side effects are also much milder than the old-school oral MAOIs like Parnate and Nardil.

angelique (and anybody else) - PM me and I can send more info on any of this. The Carlat Report has a 2006 series of articles on the MAOIs.

> Is there an herb other than tobacco that has natural MAOIs?

Syrian Rue is the best known and probably the most potent. People have eaten and smoked the seeds for a long time and they are well known to be psychoactive via those routes with standard dosages.
-Jake

True.
The issue with the natural MAOIs is the lack of medical supervision, lack of regulation on contents or quality, and risk of misdosing. Syrian rue is awfully potent. (I found two tox reports on syrian rue [1, 2] but no studies on depression treatment with either passionflower or syrian rue; one study suggested passionflower has promise for anxiety.)
And they must not be taken alongside any antidepressants because of the serious risks of drug interaction.
If you go that route, just be cautious and start very low (like any drug).
(The beta-carbolines are reversible inhibitors, so they don't require the MAOI diet.)

On the tobacco products issue: You mentioned cancer, Jake, but it's not the only thing to avoid. At least snus, unlike smoking, doesn't carry an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. It does contain TSNAs, but in lower quantity than cigarettes, so you're right that there are carcinogens involved. Lowering risk is good; eliminating it is better; but in this case, each person has to figure out the risk-benefit calculation for him/herself.

 

[olderthandirt]

Sage, shrooms, and peyote - should have quite a kick! I'd rather drink Aunt Abby and Aunt Martha's elderberry wine. thank you very much....

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't taken as endorsing their use, I most emphatically do not!

Aunties elderberry wine much safer, gentler and darn sure tastier!

 

[angelique510]

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't taken as endorsing their use, I most emphatically do not!

I second that! I do read sometimes and know what you were talking about.bad, bad ,bad stuff.

Aunties elderberry wine much safer, gentler and darn sure tastier!

YouTube - Arsenic And Old Lace 3/15 (1944)

 

[angelique510]

angelique (and anybody else) - PM me and I can send more info on any of this. The Carlat Report has a 2006 series of articles on the MAOIs.

Thank you, Madame. We'll have to chat sometime when I haven't been awake for 36 hours. I'm gonna go nappy-time now.

~A

 

[AlexTM]

Is snus as dangerous as regular tobacco you put in your mouth. I know there are cases of mouth cancer from oral tobacco use as a matter of fact one of my husband's close friends got mouth cancer and died from this. He went through a long difficult battle before he died.
...
Pharmacy MAO are rarely prescribed because of all the side effect. They now use SSRI instead. I am not sure if any of these anti-depressant will work but it could not hurt anything.

My dear Martha, kindly check the facts: The risk of mouth cancer from snus (which is quite different from other oral tobaccos, they are all different from each other) is next to negligable. So is the risk for everything but gum disease. It is not risk free, but it does not even vaguely come close to tobacco smoke, either.
Of course some people who use oral tobacco will get mouth cancer. So will people who never did. And a lot more people who smoked.

And I may add that most of what we assume about the relative risk of vaping (low) does come from articles about snus. You know, all this "nicotine is fairly harmless as long as you don't smoke it"-stuff.

And believe me, I'd know: Forget pharmaceutical anti-depressants. They are at best a cheap vitamin pill next to a basket full of fresh fruits. And that's not even mentioning the side effects, of which SSRIs are not exactly free, either.

 

[Madame Psychosis]

martha1014, I believe you have dip or chewing tobacco confused with snus. Because snus is steam cured rather than fire cured, it has a lower concentration of cancer-causing nitrosamines than other forms of mouth-held tobacco. Snus is, in fact, less risky. Many medical authorities are reluctant to publicly state this, because they want to encourage total tobacco cessation, but the data are there.

I also disagree that antidepressants can't hurt anything, but on the other hand...

And believe me, I'd know: Forget pharmaceutical anti-depressants. They are at best a cheap vitamin pill next to a basket full of fresh fruits. And that's not even mentioning the side effects, of which SSRIs are not exactly free, either.

And believe me, I'd know: I'd not be here without them.
They're overprescribed, and for too many conditions, which inevitably gives them a bad reputation -- you get side effects but no treatment. But like everything else, there are risk/benefit calculations. Each individual has to gather information and find what works for his/her own brain, meaning blanket statements can't be made.
(I wrote about pharma. MAOIs because they were mentioned and there are misconceptions out there about them; and because those with true clinical depression who find smoking especially rewarding may find benefit in them.)

I wouldn't suggest pharmaceuticals to the OP or to the vast majority of people here -- in that we would agree.

Reduced-harm smokeless tobacco provides what's missing from vaping without introducing new effects or drug interactions.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Well, just playing catch-up......can't really add anything.....quite a wealth of information here.....good defense on the lowly snus portion.....good job all.....back to the dungeon I go.....

 

[darkmatter22]

google.com

 

[AlexTM]

I also disagree that antidepressants can't hurt anything, but on the other hand...

And believe me, I'd know: I'd not be here without them.
They're overprescribed, and for too many conditions, which inevitably gives them a bad reputation -- you get side effects but no treatment. But like everything else, there are risk/benefit calculations.

I was talking about - should have made that clearer - replacing the tobacco MAOIs with pharmaceuticals. I don't think that could possibly work, or if, with bad side effects.

I have taken ADs myself for quite a while, and while I do indeed have a clinical depression, they were only somewhat helpful. They did get me over a few very rough spots, though. But I do doubt their efficiency when it comes to smoke cesation.

 

[JakeStew]

All three of these pharmaceutical MAOIs require the MAOI diet (no tyramine, meaning no aged cheese, preserved meats, soy sauce and other fermented foods, etc). There's really no two ways about it. You don't mess with hypertensive crises.

It's still FDA recommended to avoid excessive tyramine with the selegiline patch, but the clinical data shows you don't really have to. IMHO the whole MAOI diet has been blown out of proportion a bit, but considering the consequences exaggerating the risks a bit to get patient compliance is understandable.

Syrian rue has been smoked by quite a few people without incidence, so it's an interesting candidate for an e-liquid ingredient.

Wrong Jakestew. Bad information on your part. As said above, there is no connection between snus and any oral cancer. You would do well to do some research before giving out this type of misinformation.

I'd be happy to look at the studies you're referring to and critique them, but I don't really see what your reasoning is.

Tobacco in contact with mucous membranes causes cancer. That's a well documented fact. Snus is tobacco.

One of the reasons smoking got so out of hand was that it was difficult to demonstrate the dangers in research studies. Tobacco causes cancer, that's now well documented. So you can come up with as many studies as you want that fail to demonstrate the risk, but it doesn't change the fact that we know it causes cancer. It's been proven and no amount of Swedish studies can unprove it.

There's nothing wrong with harm reduction, but don't accuse me of spreading misinformation for pointing out that tobacco causes cancer. Arguing against that is one of the most foolish arguments you can try to make.


-Jake

 

[olderthandirt]

... Tobacco causes cancer, that's now well documented. So you can come up with as many studies as you want that fail to demonstrate the risk, but it doesn't change the fact that we know it causes cancer. It's been proven and no amount of Swedish studies can unprove it.

There's nothing wrong with harm reduction, but don't accuse me of spreading misinformation for pointing out that tobacco causes cancer. Arguing against that is one of the most foolish arguments you can try to make.


-Jake

Just wanted to point out again that tobacco can cause cancer. As can a host of other materials.

Simply a caution regarding absolute statements in a non absolute world.

 

[AlexTM]

If I have not overlooked something, then there is no statistical data that supports the notion that snus increases the risk for oral cancer. And there is quite a bit of data on snus use, so if it did, it would have been noticed.

And there was only one study showing an alleged increase in pancreatic cancer. Other studies did not support that finding. And even if - it was something like 1:9000 for non-users and 1:4000 in users. Meaning 1 in 5000 people who use snus get pancreatic cancer who would not have gotten it otherwise.
Now compare that to analog cigarettes.

 

[Bogalu]

It's still FDA recommended to avoid excessive tyramine with the selegiline patch, but the clinical data shows you don't really have to. IMHO the whole MAOI diet has been blown out of proportion a bit, but considering the consequences exaggerating the risks a bit to get patient compliance is understandable.

Syrian rue has been smoked by quite a few people without incidence, so it's an interesting candidate for an e-liquid ingredient.



I'd be happy to look at the studies you're referring to and critique them, but I don't really see what your reasoning is.

Tobacco in contact with mucous membranes causes cancer. That's a well documented fact. Snus is tobacco.

One of the reasons smoking got so out of hand was that it was difficult to demonstrate the dangers in research studies. Tobacco causes cancer, that's now well documented. So you can come up with as many studies as you want that fail to demonstrate the risk, but it doesn't change the fact that we know it causes cancer. It's been proven and no amount of Swedish studies can unprove it.

There's nothing wrong with harm reduction, but don't accuse me of spreading misinformation for pointing out that tobacco causes cancer. Arguing against that is one of the most foolish arguments you can try to make.


-Jake

I don't mean to rain on your parade but Snus DOES NOT in fact raise the risk of oral cancers at all. A fair share of research can bring the light of day about that. Although snus DOES increase the risk of cancer in your colon oddly enough. So it seems as though we traded oral cancer for colon cancer. Although the risk for colon cancer wasn't elevated too much more than those who do not use any tobacco product. Nevertheless the elevated risk is there.

It seems as though fire cured tobacco such as dip had the carcinogens that caused oral cancer and snus does not since it is not fire treated.


Although I have one question... I'm trying to get that free sample pack of snus from getsnus.com and a msg dialogue box came up that frightened me... this is what it said:

By purchasing from GetSnus.com, you confirm that you
are of legal age to purchase tobacco products and that your
purchase is for an adult over the age of 18 (19 if resident
of Alabama, Alaska, New Jersey or Utah).

**You have chosen to purchase through our website and accept a
prepaid delivery of tobacco products.**

Your submission of payment affirms this statement.

The section I outlined in stars is what frightened me, is it saying that I'm agreeing to a subscription of snus from their website? Or merely saying I'm accepting the purchase of the products in my cart and ONLY those products?

All input would be appreciated.

 

[Bogalu]

I just called em and they said its no subscription so I'm happy. Free snus for $1.00 shipping. Cant beat that. So I'll try the swedish stuff and the discreet stuff and see which one I like the best.