New E-Cig Research-Vape Temperature--Crowd Funded- Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos

[roosterado]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/e-cigarette-research-temperature-of-evaporation

 

[Mowgli]

bumping ttt

 

[Kent C]

Attack on sub-ohm vaping? Regulations to follow??

 

[dragonpuff]

Attack on sub-ohm vaping? Regulations to follow??

Glantz is already riding this gravy train, a new study isn't going to make a difference there IMO.

I don't think power is the only variable that influences the temperature. I think we will find that under most normal vaping conditions, even when sub-ohming, the temperature is still not high enough to raise any serious health concerns.

I am curious to see how this study turns out

 

[Kent C]

Glantz is already riding this gravy train,

Then let him drive the train.... we need other studies on the benefits of ecigs, not in the other direction. Let them do that.

What's next? Is cotton wicking safe? The downside of using kanthal?

 

[roosterado]

Spreading The Truth and Money [Donated to Vapers Rights Advocacy Groups]will set us Free

 

[roosterado]

Then let him drive the train.... we need other studies on the benefits of ecigs, not in the other direction. Let them do that.

What's next? Is cotton wicking safe? The downside of using kanthal?

We have all kinds of is this safe or that safe threads on here. Chances are a study like this will show at normal vaping temperatures[ that means when power is applied to a coil with a wick saturated by E-Liquid] no dangerous emissions will be found. Who would you rather pay for and do this study Vapers/Venders and Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos or Big Tobacco and Big Pharma funded Public Heath Org.s

 

[Nate760]

I don't think power is the only variable that influences the temperature. I think we will find that under most normal vaping conditions, even when sub-ohming, the temperature is still not high enough to raise any serious health concerns.

My first impression is that this is another not-terribly-useful study design. Vapers in general are still a rather tiny population subgroup in the grand scheme of things, and sub-ohmers are a tiny subgroup of that tiny subgroup.

 

[Kent C]

We have all kinds of is this safe or that safe threads on here. Chances are a study like this will show at normal vaping temperatures[ that means when power is applied to a coil with a wick saturated by E-Liquid] no dangerous emissions will be found. Who would you rather pay for and do this study Vapers/Venders and Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos or Big Tobacco and Big Pharma funded Public Heath Org.s

I'm with Nate on this. Not needed now. Whatever negative (or even questionable) results shown will be picked up by ANTZ and skewed to fit their purpose. So it really doesn't matter who funds it or who does it.

Here's a preview: anything over 10 Watts is likely to produce some nano particles that could be inhaled and cause cancer. Anything over 12 Watts is likely to produce acrolein if VG is part of the eliquid. D'uh.... to anyone who's been paying attention.

 

[DrMA]

<snip>
Here's a preview: anything over 10 Watts is likely to produce some nano particles that could be inhaled and cause cancer. Anything over 12 Watts is likely to produce acrolein if VG is part of the eliquid. D'uh.... to anyone who's been paying attention.

I disagree with that prediction. I think you can have clean, carbonyl-free vapor and reasonably-low coil temperatures at much higher power output, provided you can keep the wick from going dry. If you go to Dr. F's YT channel, you can see some preliminary tests with miniature temperature probes embedded within the coil. The coil temperatures are very low even in the absence of forced airflow over the coil, as would happen during normal vaping. I also think that vapers can immediately detect the presence of minute amounts of pyrolysis byproducts thus avoiding exposure (dry hits).

Finally, in spite of the ANTZ propaganda, there's no evidence health-relevant ultrafine particles have ever been detected in vapor - see "Critique argument #2" here Abuse of evidence and argument: a response to Stanton Glantz' criticisms of an expert letter to WHO on tobacco harm reduction

 

[Kent C]

I disagree with that prediction. I think you can have clean, carbonyl-free vapor and reasonably-low coil temperatures at much higher power output, provided you can keep the wick from going dry. If you go to Dr. F's YT channel, you can see some preliminary tests with miniature temperature probes embedded within the coil. The coil temperatures are very low even in the absence of forced airflow over the coil, as would happen during normal vaping. I also think that vapers can immediately detect the presence of minute amounts of pyrolysis byproducts thus avoiding exposure (dry hits).

Finally, in spite of the ANTZ propaganda, there's no evidence health-relevant ultrafine particles have ever been detected in vapor - see "Critique argument #2" here Abuse of evidence and argument: a response to Stanton Glantz' criticisms of an expert letter to WHO on tobacco harm reduction

Yeah... with all the ifs, ands, or buts, but newbie vapors (unless they end up here) might not know that or heed it. The ANTZ are just now realizing there are tank systems. Soon they'll hear about sub-ohm vaping and Glantz esp. will be all over it - once it sinks in - say another month or two after he grasps the concept.

As to the ultra-fine particles - those stories were rampant in the media for months - right around the 'poison period'. They had their own studies that 'proved it' and they ignored or rejected the studies that disproved it. AND more importantly, they know that once it gets out in the media, they've captured the low information types who pass it along through facebook, twitter and blogs. Although I haven't been following, but most likely someone attempted to get it into wiki as well. Just guess though. I would, if I were them.

You may be right... we'll surely see.

 

[csardaz]

I'd have thought that if the wick is good and wet at the coil, then temps are pretty limited to the boiling point of the liquid. But, Dr. F says his sensor near the coil and thermographic camera show things getting much hotter than that. He was testing with 90vg 10water and 1.8% nic. Should boil under 140c.

I know water boiling to steam moves lots of heat efficiently, but perhaps VG & PG don't? Water is rather magical with its heat capacity and phase changes.

I'd like to see a model with like watts/mm3, juice flow, airflow, juice boil temp and such that predicts temp and proved by or adjusted to real experimental results.

 

[SeniorBoy]

Word is before Xmas for this DNA40:



Note the temp display. Is it limiting and or user definable? Why? Evolv is a very very smart USA company so it's not a cosmetic feature. /lol What does Evolv understand that "we" don't?

Food for thought which reinforces my own belief that this "Temperature of evaporation, liquid consumption and vapor analysis in realistic conditions" scientific study can be helpful for all of US.

 

[dragonpuff]

Yeah... with all the ifs, ands, or buts, but newbie vapors (unless they end up here) might not know that or heed it. The ANTZ are just now realizing there are tank systems. Soon they'll hear about sub-ohm vaping and Glantz esp. will be all over it - once it sinks in - say another month or two after he grasps the concept.

My point earlier was that Glantz and friends are already aware, at least vaguely, of sub-ohming and possible issues with temperature, at least enough to start looking into it. Check out this quote, which I found in the middle of a long argument he was having with Clive Bates about a week ago:

Please give your reference for stating “PG has ‘generally recognised as safe’ status, including for inhalation”: in an electronic cigarette. You state: “but only become significant when the product is used in extreme circumstances, running very hot or dry.” Dr Farsalinos has again pointed out to me that: “There are devices going up to 30 watts now. I consider these extreme, but a lot of people use energy levels up to 10 watts.” (my emphasis, plus also see here E-Cigarettes Don't Look Anything Like You Think They Do | Motherboard ). Please also see Dr Farsalinos’ experiments on temperatures on You Tube, and note that Polosa, in his conclusion in the link provided, confirms that temperatures are a significant issue for concern. All potential users, all populations, should be made aware of this fact, in order that they can make an informed choice about using these devices. As stated: “Since new potentially harmful substances may be produced during heating process, analyses of aerosol are needed to correlate its composition to the chemical components of liquids.” This is why currently, at least, PG is not considered safe as utilised in an electronic cigarette: which IS THE CONTEXT we are discussing.

Source: tobacco.ucsf
.edu/electronic-cigarettes-are-source-thirdhand-exposure-nicotine

Glantz is already making the argument that temperatures make vaping dangerous, and implies in his quote from Dr. Farsalinos that power plays a role. It won't take much time for him to figure out the rest on his own, and he will definitely understand sub-ohming well enough to use it against us before this study is completed.

As far as I can tell, either this study will give fuel to Glantz's fire, or it will give him nothing and he will find reason to discredit the study, and he will find something else to use against us. Glantz and friends will continue their crusade, whether this study is done or not, whether it gives us favorable results or not. It won't make a lick of difference in how they behave.

If he was so uninformed, as you presume, how could he have been so successful in fighting us so far? One of the biggest fallacies is to assume your enemy is stupid. It is too easy to underestimate them that way. Unfortunately this guy is brilliant, which is what makes him an excellent manipulator. No single study is going to make things worse for us, this guy will do a fine job of it with or without that.

Edit: On a side note, the link to Vice within the quote is chock full of sweet looking mods that I think everyone should check out

 

[roosterado]

My first impression is that this is another not-terribly-useful study design. Vapers in general are still a rather tiny population subgroup in the grand scheme of things, and sub-ohmers are a tiny subgroup of that tiny subgroup.

I highly doubt this study will focus solely on sub Ohming. It will mostly likely focus on refillable devices the most popular out there. Maybe Sub ohming will be studied as within the range of devices used.

 

[roosterado]

#smokefreeradio “VCCTN14 Recap” | Welcome to DimiSphere Covers the study

 

[Kent C]

Glantz is already making the argument that temperatures make vaping dangerous, and implies in his quote from Dr. Farsalinos that power plays a role. It won't take much time for him to figure out the rest on his own, and he will definitely understand sub-ohming well enough to use it against us before this study is completed.

As far as I can tell, either this study will give fuel to Glantz's fire, or it will give him nothing and he will find reason to discredit the study, and he will find something else to use against us.

Confirms some of my original thoughts.

 

[Nate760]

If he was so uninformed, as you presume, how could he have been so successful in fighting us so far? One of the biggest fallacies is to assume your enemy is stupid. It is too easy to underestimate them that way. Unfortunately this guy is brilliant, which is what makes him an excellent manipulator.

When a guy can parlay a degree in mechanical engineering into a tenured professorship and a $20 million grant for lying about tobacco, the last thing I'm gonna call him is dumb.

 

[SeniorBoy]

#smokefreeradio “VCCTN14 Recap” | Welcome to DimiSphere Covers the study

THANK YOU! I'm about 18 minutes into it and it's outstanding. No need to guess and or bloviate /lol /joke

JUST listen for all the details of the study direct from the Doc!

 

[Kent C]

If he was so uninformed, as you presume, how could he have been so successful in fighting us so far? One of the biggest fallacies is to assume your enemy is stupid.

This comment slipped by - I want to explain.... yeah, I did say it might take a while to 'sink in' for Glantz, which could be interpreted that I think he is stupid. But that is based on some of the earlier studies where they really didn't seem to have a clue - even on the exact design for ecigs with graphics that wrongly tagged where the battery was for one example. I'm not going to rummage through the studies to find it, but many here will know of what I speak. Many displayed the same surprise as I as to how much they didn't know.

Simple enough to find

Carl Phillips:Stanton Glantz – liar or innumerate? New evidence says: both! | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

"As my readers will know, I have had a long-time hobby project of trying to figure out to what extent that anti-tobacco extremist Stanton Glantz, a professor at UCSF (I assume he teaches innumeracy), is just utterly clueless about what he claims expertise in, or whether he is intentionally lying. You can search the archives and see that I have come to lean toward “intentionally dishonest” quite often, but he still offers enough detail about some of his claims that suggest he just does not understand simple scientific points."

Anyway, maybe Carl should heed your advice as well....