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Donate to Dr Farsalinos' new study

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Mr.Mann

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    If you're talking about who I think you're talking about (name begins with "V" and ends with "e"; PM me if you want the name), they just got religion; the last time I looked (today, 7/29/14 at 11:58 PM), they had changed the relevant web page to state they had made the decision to go diacetyl-free. They go on to say that even though they still maintain that the trace amounts of diacetyl were too low to make an impact, they'd rather be safe than sorry. (Hmmm... wonder how they know it's only "trace amounts," and how do they define "trace"?)

    I had some time ago actually made an entry in my Evernote file specifically reminding me that they knew some of their juices had diacetyl in them. Seemed pretty ironic that a company selling organic juices talked about knowing there was diacetyl in some of their juices. (At least they marked the juices in question as having "trace" amounts of diacetyl.) In any case, I intend to leave the warning to myself I put in Evernote some time ago reminding me that they knew there was diacetyl in some of their juices.

    Interesting. I know exactly who you are talking about and always liked that they gave the customer the option.
     

    Mr.Mann

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      Just to recap:

      Dr F: "By the way, we specifically mention that we examined only sweet flavors. Thus, when we report 74% of the sampels being positive for diacetyl and/or acetyl propionyl, we refer to sweet flavors only. We expect this to be smaller when you consider other types of flavors."

      Kurt:
      "I will say that most of the positive results, as in DA/AP was present, were in the usual suspects: creams, custards, cookies, vanillas, cakes, caramels, and other desserts that combine these. Fruits were less of a problem, but there were exceptions. DA or AP can be used as a flavor addition to fruits to make them taste ripe. But in general there were few fruits testing positive."
      "My advise is for now avoid any creamy desert flavors. If they don't have DA they probably have AP. I would also try to get used to using flavors in very low %s if you DIY."

      Either Kurt or Dr F - I think Kurt (sorry, I copied and pasted and failed to attribute this one):
      "Diacetyl appears to be in a huge variety of flavors, even ones not obviously "creamy". It seems to me that diacetyl's function is something like MSG - it's a "flavor enhancer", and the issue is all the more insidious because of it."

      Also natural extract should be avoided; "organic" is suspect depending upon how the term is being used.


      That is actually very helpful and I completely forgot about Kurt's post.

      (My apologies for the triple post -- it was a mistake)
       

      Racehorse

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        One of my favorite liquids, EcoPure Rich is a basically EM and VG (plus nic). It's sweet and I am confident there is no DA/AP.

        You probably remember a lot of this, so feel free to correct because I don't remember every detail from 2 years ago.

        ECOPure Rich and ECOpure Fresh (Intellicig) were my ADV for quite a while in 2012-2013 when I was looking for a *clean* vape. I even included them in all those "Best Of" year end polls and I may have generated their only vote back at that time. :)

        When they discontinued EcoPure in the USA and replaced with ECOVape many of us perceived it was not the same. Before that, as a DIYer, you could also purchase ECOpure Krystal, which was their unflavored, 100% VG base manufactured with 3.6% nicotine. Then, they removed that from the US website as well. (I think this all had something to do with being bought out by BAT or whatever).

        As I remember, that is what the *original* Virgin Vapor used in their coffee recipes, until it was no longer manufactured---I remember when they alerted their customers:
        SOLD OUT - Organic Kona Velvet Milkshake E-liquid | Virgin Vapor | Electronic Cigarette Organic e-Liquid | Electronic Cigarettes

        Back then I did try both the *new* EcoVape products, as well as the VV coffees that used to use the EcoPure, and both were decidedly not the same.

        That original EcoPure nicotine sure was very clean tasting.....*crisp* was how everyone described it. Vicki at Cignot had some inventory available for a while and it sold out pretty quickly. Some people just switched over to the NAKED line that Cignot carried and still carries (basically, just nicotine, distilled water and 100% VG). It is made in the USA specifically for Cignot. (The rest of the Basic line does have some flavorings, but less than 0.3% PG, so a lot of high VG vapers love it.)

        I guess you could just use a really clean tasting non-PG nicotine base (of your choice) and add some EM crystals, or close to 100% VG flavorings that don't contain DA or DP, and it would make a nice clean vape.

        The funny part is that very thing that made Ecopure Rich and Ecopure Fresh NOT widely popular was the very thing that drew many (mostly DIYers) who already were thinking about the possible dangers of flavorings, dyes, sugar, etc. in juice back in 2012......it was clean, it did not use much flavoring, it tasted similar to unflavored in many ways.

        The thing is that *most* vapers have always gone for high flavoring and rather rich tastes......and that is the opposite of what EcoPure Fresh tasted like. :lol: But, they did have a following back in the day.....funny now, it seems we are coming full circle ?
         

        Racehorse

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          "It seems to me that diacetyl's function is something like MSG - it's a "flavor enhancer", and the issue is all the more insidious because of it."

          In essence, then additives like "smooth" and "vape wizard" would be the opposite of a flavor enhancer like diacetyl.

          Basically, they (chemically) alter one's taste perception. I would like to learn more about how they do that.


          These additives are certainly things I would like to see studied in the next tests, though. Not sure I want any part of my body to be "altered" in order to enjoy a certain elquid :blink:
           

          Kent C

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            Time machine:

            http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo.../37951-why-ecopure-so-popular.html#post576941

            innovapor.com used to sell it, then either they changed the names. Noel and Mark (innovaper) told me that the key with ECOpure was the pharma grade VG, the deionized water at a 83:17 ratio and at the time, the only difference between 'rich, mild and regular' was the amount of ethyl maltol. Fresh, at first, was unflavored, but later became their 'menthol'. The first batch of Fresh was flavored with a good quality menthol, later it was flavored with mint (not as good). Then the 'unflavored' was named Krystal at 36mg and Ecomix at 0 mg. Considered by many as the cleanest eliquid available at the time.

            The first batches of Decadent Vapours was made with ecopure bases. Later, Nick O'Teen (DV) made his own pharma grade diluents and nic bases. But continued using the deionized water (believed purer than distilled, but that battle still rages on :) and in the same ratio. I think the deionized water affects the resistivity of the VG better and makes it less viscous and less apt to gunk coils but only from my own experience not from any testing.
             

            Mr.Mann

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              Time machine:

              http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo.../37951-why-ecopure-so-popular.html#post576941

              innovapor.com used to sell it, then either they changed the names. Noel and Mark (innovaper) told me that the key with ECOpure was the pharma grade VG, the deionized water at a 83:17 ratio and at the time, the only difference between 'rich, mild and regular' was the amount of ethyl maltol. Fresh, at first, was unflavored, but later became their 'menthol'. The first batch of Fresh was flavored with a good quality menthol, later it was flavored with mint (not as good). Then the 'unflavored' was named Krystal at 36mg and Ecomix at 0 mg. Considered by many as the cleanest eliquid available at the time.

              The first batches of Decadent Vapours was made with ecopure bases. Later, Nick O'Teen (DV) made his own pharma grade diluents and nic bases. But continued using the deionized water (believed purer than distilled, but that battle still rages on :) and in the same ratio. I think the deionized water affects the resistivity of the VG better and makes it less viscous and less apt to gunk coils but only from my own experience not from any testing.

              Yeah, not sure what that stuff is Innovapor sells now -- it's basically Malty from BWB (and those are not EcoPure clones, they're just VG and EM -- same in theory, but not the same thing in practice). I agree with you on the Deionized water because it is not thick (it's fine even for cartos), but either which way, as expensive as it is for me to get directly form the UK, EcoPure Rich is (as cliche as it is to say) CLEAN! And it's sweet too. LOL

              So, in some respects I see this study and the concerns over DA/AP to be an issue, but there is a lot of liquid out there and I could still be a happy vaper without the hassle of this. Hell, I could also spend a lot less too.

              Yes, RH, EcoVape was not only not the same, but I thought it was NASTY! I don't know what the deal is with Intellicig (UK) vs. Intellicig (US) or even why they pulled it from the US market, but luckily it can still be obtained. Pricey, but it's a classic for a reason!
               
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              Kurt

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                TPA has a list of flavors that contain AP:

                Perfumer's Apprentice

                Linda makes it clear that the list is incomplete, but it is fairly extensive. I would not assume if a flavor you are interested in is not on this list that it is necessarily free of AP.

                Coconut Candy is the big heart break for me. Also contains hexanedione, another alpha-diketone, and also risky.
                 
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                Kent C

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                  Yeah, not sure what that stuff is Innovapor sells now -- it's basically Malty from BWB (and those are not EcoPure clones, they're just VG and EM -- same in theory, but not the same thing in practice). I agree with you on the Deionized water because it is not thick (it's fine even for cartos), but either which way, as expensive as it is for me to get directly form the UK, EcoPure Rich is (as cliche as it is to say) CLEAN! And it's sweet too. LOL

                  So, in some respects I see this study and the concerns over DA/AP to be an issue, but there is a lot of liquid out there and I could still be a happy vaper without the hassle of this. Hell, I could also spend a lot less too.

                  Yes, RH, EcoVape was not only not the same, but I thought it was NASTY! I don't know what the deal is with Intellicig (UK) vs. Intellicig (US) or even why they pulled it from the US market, but luckily it can still be obtained. Pricey, but it's a classic for a reason!

                  Didn't even know that innovapor still exists. I'm guessing Noel is likely a doctor by now and Mark (really good guy) perhaps somewhere in sales :) ... unless they both held on....

                  Most people are surprised how low the viscosity is in my DV VG base. And since Ahl. is the only other thing I vape (well occasional BWB espresso) I can tell the difference in their bases. I would hope that Vl. and company would dilute their VG in the same manner but don't think they do.
                   

                  Racehorse

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                    Decadent Vapours was made with ecopure bases. Later, Nick O'Teen (DV) made his own pharma grade diluents and nic bases. But continued using the deionized water (believed purer than distilled, but that battle still rages on :) and in the same ratio. I think the deionized water affects the resistivity of the VG better and makes it less viscous and less apt to gunk coils but only from my own experience not from any testing.

                    Great outfit, I'm pretty sure I went there as a result of some of your posts a while back.....

                    TPA has a list of flavors that contain AP:

                    Linda was a godsend when I started DIY, I went carefully thru her lists and managed to make DIY with the flavorings that appeared the least offensive in terms of questionable stuff. She definitely does her homework. She is the kind of vendor that should populate our industry in higher numbers IMHO.

                    So, in some respects I see this study and the concerns over DA/AP to be an issue, but there is a lot of liquid out there and I could still be a happy vaper without the hassle of this. Hell, I could also spend a lot less too.

                    I think many of the DIYers and chemist types were not suprised by anything in the study, actually. I guess the point is that the greater vaping community deserves to be *informed*, and not everyone has the time to excrutiatingly read thru hundreds of posts for 2 years, like some of us, while we were trying to figure stuff out. And, because not everyone even has that goal in mind, I mean, in terms of risk, they may be willing to accept more than I am for instance. But they should know about risks that come to light.....even if there are ones we don't know about yet, that doesn't cancel out the ones we do know about.

                    Didn't MOV pull a juice when they determined the flavoring had some of these components?

                    That is really what I would like to see, as the vaping community moves forward....

                    It just bothers me when I perceived that people, who are in the professional/commercial mixing business, are "bowled over with surprise" by a study like this. I guess my point is that they shouldn't be. They shouldn't be because enough people know about these issues, and if they are making their living sending out product to consumers, then they NEED to make knowing these things their business too.

                    Yes, I am pretty pro-consumer. That is because I know how hard people work for their money, esp. in a tight economy. At the very least they deserve information that is accurate. And don't make them work at it like pulling teeth.

                    Providing a test result doesn't represent a burden, in my eyes, from a business POV. What it does represent is an opportunity. An opportunity to serve your customer/consumer in a way that is most transparent.

                    Sure seems less resource-intensive, and therefore, cheaper, than fielding hundreds of emails and phone calls.....and/or defending litigation down the line.
                     

                    aubergine

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                      The curve of this conversation might imply that we should favor unflavored e-liquid. As an individual decision that's perfectly legit. I want to note really clearly that that shouldn't be confused with policy proposal. It's quite true that flavor is a large part of the appeal of e-cigs, and I think that pleasure plays an enormous part in their effectiveness in quitting smoking. Despite the unknowns, every indication supports the claim that they are far less harmful than cigarettes, and their effectiveness as a replacement shouldn't be tampered with by any regulation or legislation. That I'd like to see a strong community/vendor movement to eliminate known risks isn't to say that those risks approximate the risks of smoking, or that they oughtn't be very carefully weighed against real benefit.

                      My personal response to the study isn't to eliminate flavors - they're important to me. And they're even more important to newbies wanting to kick the habit. The first concern is almost always taste - that's the reinforcement, probably as important as the nicotine hit, at least initially. The timing of this excellent and useful study sucks, as flavoring is of course one of the ANTZ targets. And it's maddening that good faith efforts to focus on any possible avoidable risks in a product that serves public health so well might dissuade anyone from using it at all. (I never did want to fool with DYI, and again, I think that the general public doesn't either - that's a good niche solution but I'm after saving maximum life.)

                      Me, I'll seek vendors who test for D&A, disclose levels and pertinent content and are generally conscientious (more of those, please!), and continue to deeply enjoy my lovely variety of lower-risk flavors.

                      As a long-time foodie I also know that toxin-seeking can become a real rabbit hole. There are many articles out there that would lead you to believe that eating non-organic apples will pretty much kill you. I prefer my apples organic, but I think the benefits of eating fresh fruit far outweigh the risk of toxicity. For those of us who stick with flavors, there are uncertainties that only time will resolve. For me, OK. And I'll continue to pay attention to good research, and to weigh the risk/pleasure balance against new findings. Again, everyone finds their own balance and preferred level of risk; the keywords, I think, are knowledge, vendor transparency and choice.
                       
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                      Kent C

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                        The curve of this conversation might imply that we should favor unflavored e-liquid. As an individual decision that's perfectly legit. I want to note really clearly that that shouldn't be confused with policy proposal. It's quite true that flavor is a large part of the appeal of e-cigs, and I think that pleasure plays an enormous part in their effectiveness in quitting smoking. Despite the unknowns, every indication supports the claim that they are far less harmful than cigarettes, and their effectiveness as a replacement shouldn't be tampered with by any regulation or legislation. That I'd like to see a strong community/vendor movement to eliminate known risks isn't to say that those risks approximate the risks of smoking, or that they oughtn't be very carefully weighed against real benefit.

                        My personal response to the study isn't to eliminate flavors - they're important to me. And they're even more important to newbies wanting to kick the habit. The first concern is almost always taste - that's the reinforcement, probably as important as the nicotine hit, at least initially. The timing of this excellent and useful study sucks, as flavoring is of course one of the ANTZ targets. And it's maddening that good faith efforts to focus on any possible avoidable risks in a product that serves public health so well might dissuade anyone from using it at all. (I never did want to fool with DYI, and again, I think that the general public doesn't either - that's a good niche solution but I'm after saving maximum life.)

                        Me, I'll seek vendors who test for D&A, disclose levels and pertinent content and are generally conscientious (more of those, please!), and continue to deeply enjoy my lovely variety of lower-risk flavors.

                        As a long-time foodie I also know that toxin-seeking can become a real rabbit hole. There are many articles out there that would lead you to believe that eating non-organic apples will pretty much kill you. I prefer my apples organic, but I think the benefits of eating fresh fruit far outweigh the risk of toxicity. For those of us who stick with flavors, there are uncertainties that only time will resolve. For me, OK. And I'll continue to pay attention to good research, and to weigh the risk/pleasure balance against new findings. Again, everyone finds their own balance and preferred level of risk; the keywords, I think, are knowledge, vendor transparency and choice.

                        Well said. So..... (for those lurking)

                        It is the diacetyl, not the flavors with which some are concerned. Since diacetyl is linked to certain flavors, IF someone is 'concerned' but, either are unwilling to do tests for themselves OR who buy from vendors who don't test, then it might be a good idea to avoid those 'certain flavors'. Otherwise, buy from vendors who can certify that their flavors are diacetyl-free, and can offer proof of it, or test yourself.
                         
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                        KGie

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                          If they'd been claiming zero diacetyl knowing that there were "traces", that would have been a problem.
                          If they disclosed that then they were at least making some effort to honor the most important criterion for consumer choice, which is honesty.
                          That they test at all is commendable - few do. And that they're now raising their standards is really terrific.
                          If they're willing to display test results and those are attributable and up to par I'd say they're doing a damned good job.

                          I'm not familiar much with the vendor you're talking about, but I think that there are a number of vendors rethinking this one. I'm glad for that.
                          We're all learning as we go.
                          I like informed choice.

                          In some ways I do agree with you, and I was anticipating that response. Were they not claiming to be organic I would actually have felt quite good about them, but labeling something organic, for me, carries with it the idea that the vendor is going to try to avoid known hazards, even in small quantities, since we really don't what "small" means. And yes, I am well aware that that is not per se part of the definition of "organic," but practically speaking I'd say it's usually expected when "organic" is slapped on something, strict definition or not. Ironically, had they not claimed to be organic, they would no longer be living in my Evernote warning file: what else do they know is considered a hazard, and assume they know to what degree it's a hazard, and in what amounts? I just got a bad feeling from the cavalier way they dismissed DA as a hazard too mild to worry about, as if they knew more than the rest of the industry. (And mind you I am not saying it may not be too mild to validly dismiss it as a hazard; we just don't have that data yet.)
                           

                          aubergine

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                            KGie, yeah, but. "Organic", applied to e-liquid, is of course (as I think you now know) a very empty and meaningless marketing term. E-liquid isn't food, it's never "organic", and in fact "natural extracts" as opposed to synthetic flavors are more likely to be problematic, according to the very authoritative Kurt.

                            I think it's fair, though, to say that vendors who use (genuinely) organic flavorings (ie, containing nothing forbidden in that certification process as applied to agriculture and food processing) are being quite honest and likely have good intentions. Just, it's deeply irrelevant.

                            Again, the only way that we can know about D&A in any given juice is by viewing lab data from properly conducted analysis. If we've learned anything from this study, in which vendors who explicitly stated "no diacetyl" were found to be in error, it's that.

                            To the extent that the majority of vendors themselves have been unaware that the flavorings that they use contain D&A, and/or have been focused on (correctly) promoting their relative harmlessness compared to cigarettes, I'm just not eager to fault any that have educated themselves further and openly acknowledge and disclose discovery of D&A via their own testing.

                            The vendor who sells that extremely popular custard flavor states in the advertisement for it that it contains diacetyl and acetoin (or one of those, I forget). If he, or any vendor, is 'cavalier' about that I think it's comparable to the guy at the fair who hawks hotdogs wrapped in bacon wrapped in deep fried fake cheese - it's allowed, and should be, and it's also good to know that you might not want to live on those things. Those who care should press vendors for full disclosure of test methodology and pertinent results.

                            But honestly, so long as you're vaping flavored juice, or vaping at all, there's always going to be some risk; we're talking reduced harm, not total safety. It will be years before anyone can absolutely evaluate the degree of risk here, which is a bit maddening, but when weighing that at this point I think it's most pertinent to compare vape to cigarette smoke, not fresh air. It's in that context that e-cigs are "healthy". Harm reduction.
                             
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                            Kent C

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                              But honestly, so long as you're vaping flavored juice, or vaping at all, there's always going to be some risk; we're talking reduced harm, not total safety. It will be years before anyone can absolutely evaluate the degree of risk here, which is a bit maddening, but when weighing that at this point I think it's most pertinent to compare vape to cigarette smoke, not fresh air. It's in that context that e-cigs are "healthy". Harm reduction.

                              The AG's agree, but they're not willing to "wait for the years before anyone can evaluate the degree of risk".

                              "The FDA has proposed to bring under its authority flavor enhancers for hookahs as a component or part, even though not all hookah flavor enhancers contain nicotine. The FDA should similarly exercise such authority as to flavored solutions that can be used in e-cigarettes. The need to include e-liquids, whether or not they contain nicotine..."

                              http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-29-state-attorneys-general.html#post13866340
                               

                              RosaJ

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                                The AG's agree, but they're not willing to "wait for the years before anyone can evaluate the degree of risk".

                                "The FDA has proposed to bring under its authority flavor enhancers for hookahs as a component or part, even though not all hookah flavor enhancers contain nicotine. The FDA should similarly exercise such authority as to flavored solutions that can be used in e-cigarettes. The need to include e-liquids, whether or not they contain nicotine..."

                                http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-29-state-attorneys-general.html#post13866340

                                How will they control and differentiate food flavoring to be used for food or eliquid? Ask the purchaser what they're going to use it in? They may have some control over ecig vendors because they'll be buying in bulk and the nature of their business is for ecig use; but, how about a diy'er? If they asked me, I would say I like to bake different flavor cupcakes.

                                EDIT: If they increase the tax on flavorings across the board, then they'll not only have ecig vendors/user up in arms but also bakeries.
                                 

                                aubergine

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                                  The AG's agree, but they're not willing to "wait for the years before anyone can evaluate the degree of risk".

                                  "The FDA has proposed to bring under its authority flavor enhancers for hookahs as a component or part, even though not all hookah flavor enhancers contain nicotine. The FDA should similarly exercise such authority as to flavored solutions that can be used in e-cigarettes. The need to include e-liquids, whether or not they contain nicotine..."

                                  http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-29-state-attorneys-general.html#post13866340

                                  And there's the vary damned rub.
                                   
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