New Variable Voltage device from smoktech?

[John D in CT]

Wooah settle down there Johnny boy, did I have another out-o-body experience or somethin' ? When did I stab you in the back? lol lol......

Ask, and it shall be given unto you - "Jesus man...if you can't get the answer your looking for out of all those posts and analogies Im gonna have to draw you a diagram..sheeesh !!! lol lol lo llllllooollll "

And I hope you realize we're just having fun here ... or do I have to draw you a diagram? LOLOL

Good to know about LCD needing more power, so (-) points for that idea.

"Oh yeah John ....I dont use high voltage with high resistance, I use 3 & 3.2 ohm with low voltage. 3.3-3.8 on my VMAX's. Just in case you missed that part in my earlier posts. ....lol"

I plan on using 4-5 ohm single coils. Lower amps, and better flavor maybe? Consider it?

So, if I run 4000 amps at 10 volts over a 10 mile power line, I'll get the same power at the other end as I would if I ran 4000 volts at 10 amps?

Before this gets totally out of hand, can we ignore power transmission losses when it directly pertains to the question that I still, to this day and time, have about watts and why a watt doesn't seem always to be a watt? I have to find out what black hole they come from on their way to a coil at lower amperages.

It would help me a great deal if someone can tell me if there's a conceptual problem with my basic assumption that x watts can be considered x amount of heat.

A single coil at 8 watts is warmer than the same coil at 6 watts. Those watts come from the battery or batteries. Someone please help me out here.

***

"Next we can calculate how many beans the dinosaur ate before he died so we can calculate the quality of the gas we extracted from the earth to know how much energy we can get from it when we convert it to mechanical energy run the turbines to generate AC to feed to our house that ran our charger that charged our batteries, OK?"

Not really "OK" without a smiley. I'm not stupid, and IMO no one has successfully answered my question.

If you meant to put a smiley and forgot, please disregard. If you meant that to sound the way it did, please don't disregard.

 

[ObsceneJesster]

For those wondering about whether LED's use less battery power than LCD's. Yes, yes they do. Regarding a PV however, you will see no noticeable difference when 99% of it's power is being used to power a heating element. Again, the small LCD's incorporated into PV's is using next to no power at all, especially when it's only being powered on a couple times throughout the day.

 

[lassep]

Here is my honest opinion of the vmax after 3 weeks.

+ It´s got some heavy kick in it
+ It looks solid and is not too big.

-Double cell battery
-Button will break as the first thing on the device, once it does. The Vmax is dead.

RIP Vmax.. 3 weeks! It was fun!

 

[AaronY]

I honestly dont recommend using a triple coil on ANY device EVER!!!! Their just battery killers and juice hoggers. They serve no purpose thats positive. "IMO" of course.

The throat hit and flavor is amazing. I can't wait for 4 coil cartos to come out.

 

[John D in CT]

The throat hit and flavor is amazing. I can't wait for 4 coil cartos to come out.

Do you have any ideas about why more coils = more throat hit and flavor? Looking for the science behind it - thx.

 

[AaronY]

Do you have any ideas about why more coils = more throat hit and flavor? Looking for the science behind it - thx.

I saw a good description way back on the darwin thread which I don't think I can find now. But I think it has to do with how more ejuice is exposed to coils. All I can say is try it yourself. If you have a device powerful enough to power 3 coils they are heven for the first two days IMHO.

 

[John D in CT]

I saw a good description way back on the darwin thread which I don't think I can find now. But I think it has to do with how more ejuice is exposed to coils. All I can say is try it yourself. If you have a device powerful enough to power 3 coils they are heven for the first two days IMHO.

My thinking, admittedly based far more on theory than the kind of first-hand experience that you have, has been that the most important thing is to have any coil that is in contact with the juice at "just the right" temperature to properly "motivate" that juice to vaporize, and in turn release its flavor molecules into the vapor so they can then contact my taste buds.

My further thinking has been that to achieve that same temperature on two coils instead of one, that twice the number of total watts would be required, and would really just be (approximately) doubling the amount of vapor; but it's less apparent or intuitive to me that it would be approximately doubling, or even significantly increasing, the amount of flavor or throat hit.

The popularity of the many single-coil tank systems out there make me wonder if they are all somehow sacrificing a large amount of TFV by using just one coil. You seem to be stating categorically that they are. Not saying that what you are citing from personal experience is "wrong"; just again, trying to understand the science behind it. That said, the "placebo effect" has sound (IMO) science to support it.

 

[adami]

So, if I run 4000 amps at 10 volts over a 10 mile power line, I'll get the same power at the other end as I would if I ran 4000 volts at 10 amps?

If you are using a 10 mile extension on your e-cig, higher voltage will result in lower transmission loss. For anyone contemplating the world's longest gooseneck go high voltage!

Otherwise I fail to see how your statement is relevant.

 

[adami]

Do you have any ideas about why more coils = more throat hit and flavor? Looking for the science behind it - thx.

As far as I can tell, you only get more throat hit when you turn the wattage up. On a 1.5Ohm dual coil you have two 3 Ohm coils in parallel so at 10W those coils are only putting out 5W each. When I experimented with DCs I didn't notice improved vapor at the same wattage compared to a single coil but since the juice is exposed to twice as much coil surface you can run higher wattage at the same coil temperature for the more delicate flavors (i.e. a flavor that is good at 5W could be run at 10W in a dual coil with increased volume but similar flavor characteristics).

Since theoretically you should be able to put out twice the volume of vapor at twice the wattage, I'd expect increased nicotine delivery (TH) and more surface area of atomized flavoring (increased perception of flavor).

edit: Your brain may acclimate to the increased flavor concentration, in which case you won't really be able to tell the difference. Olfactory fatigue is probably a factor when you start increasing flavor density. I vape unflavored so what do I know?

 

[John D in CT]

"Since theoretically you should be able to put out twice the volume of vapor at twice the wattage ..."

I pretty much agree with everything but that. I happen to be boiling a pot of water right now, as chance would have it, and it's putting out x amount of water vapor at full boil. Would the pot put out 2x the water vapor if I ran 2x the watts through the burner coil? I would think no, because the water temperature will remain at around 212 F. It can't go any higher. Same with the juice; any particular juice will vaporize at a certain relatively narrow temperature range.

That said, the two are not completely similar, the boiling pot and the atty coil(s)/juice. In the latter, I can see how more vapor could be created by warming a larger total amount of juice that is progressively father away from the coil or coils. Twice as much? Maybe, just not sure, and not sure it can be simply assumed to be true. And in doing so, some of the juice that's nearest the coil is going to be arguably "too hot", resulting in a mixture of flavors that are "too burnt", "just right", and "muted". All at the cost of battery power. Throw polyfill into the mix, and I think the "blech" factor has nowhere to go but up.

Itt seems to me that most experienced vapers would say that the best vape, especially flavor-wise - a super-critical factor for me - comes from juice on a single coil. As in dripping, the Reo and other bottom-feeders, and the carto-less wicked (pronounced "wicht") single coil tanks. I think I'm going to end up being a single-coil guy, given what's available at the present time. Warm just one coil to just the right temperature to warm the juice that it's cozied up next to. I don't really see what else you would really need to do, or even could do, to get a better vape than that, especially when "better" refers to flavor. Will you get the most vapor that way, gently warming a smaller amount of juice to vaporizing temperature than you could with more coils? Almost definitely not, but how much do you really need? Vaping on a single coil vs dual, triple, or quadruple (??!!) seems to me a lot like having a very fuel efficient 4-cylinder turbo-charged engine in your car that gives you all the acceleration and power you need for a driving experience that is ideal for you. Could you accelerate faster, and maybe have a faster top speed with a twin-turbo V-8, or a quad-turbo V-16?

==> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n35GfYMqnU&feature=related <==

Sure you could. Will your gas mileage go down? For sure.

I don't need or want the most massive clouds of vapor possible, and i don't see why anyone would need that. I'm looking for "plenty" of vapor, and the best flavor I can get. Throat hit? I think it will be fine on a single coil, properly warmed. YMMV, of course. (Especially with quad coils, I would think).

 

[adami]

"Since theoretically you should be able to put out twice the volume of vapor at twice the wattage ..."

I pretty much agree with everything but that. I happen to be boiling a pot of water right now, as chance would have it, and it's putting out x amount of water vapor at full boil. Would the pot put out 2x the water vapor if I ran 2x the watts through the burner coil? I would think no, because the water temperature will remain at around 212 F. It can't go any higher. Same with the juice; any particular juice will vaporize at a certain relatively narrow temperature range.

I agree with everything you've said (I don't use polyfil cartos and prefer to drip). However, I think my example was a little unclear. You're throwing a second pot on a second burner to double the watts, so your vapor production should be doubled (ignoring the mechanics inside of the carto which will make an impact).

 

[John D in CT]

I agree with everything you've said (I don't use polyfil cartos and prefer to drip). However, I think my example was a little unclear. You're throwing a second pot on a second burner to double the watts, so your vapor production should be doubled (ignoring the mechanics inside of the carto which will make an impact).

Good lord, you are of course 100% correct. A little (big?) bell should have gone off in my head when I said "the two are not completely similar, the boiling pot and the atty coil(s)/juice". Like duh; two pots, two coils. I was "pot bound", like a common houseplant. Very, very nice catch. Thanks.

So yes, vapor production much more clearly to me now would approximately double ..... no, I'm going to just say "significantly increase", because it continues to seem to me that in a multi-coil carto, the bottom coil will the one contact with the polyfill (using the medium found in the most common (only, to date?) type of multi-coil attachment) that is most optimally saturated with juice. To defend the premise that the upper coil or coils will be less saturated, I invoke the Law of Gravitation.

It seems to me then that a multi-coil carto will tend to vaporize some of the juice "too hot", some "just right", and some "not enough". A single coil will do that less so. Not perfectly, since nothing is perfect, but arguably "better", and with better "fuel economy".

So again, give me a single coil all the way, mainly for flavor and juice economy. The science seems sound to me.

 

[FsckCigs]

The PBusardo review is entertaining and informative as usual, and the tech rundown is appreciated, but the reviewing requires a little reading between the lines. Phil himself makes it very clear with the duct-tape bit that there's going to be a *small* amount of bias, heh (and yep i caught that "unfortunate" center post comment too). It's pretty natural to be irritated at blatant copying of design details, the lack of originality vexes me as well. But i also came away from the review with the impression that the Vmax hits like a freight train, is relatively light in weight, has great battery life, and is reasonably well made, albeit with a rattley switch. The voltage thing is no deal-breaker for me...the review just made me aware of it. Which is good. Awareness is good.

Alot of people seem to see a need for a shootout of Vmax vs Provari, which is intuitive and expected of course, on one level, but...but...although Vmax bears a very close resemblance aesthetically to Provari, it really is a very different machine under the hood. With that in mind, performance comparisons vs other devices which utilize pulsing and which use step-down rather than boost (such as the eVo) would have been more of interest to me. As for the voltage ratings...i dont think Smokech is "wrong" in how they're determing the Vmax voltage, they're just using a different, yet viable, methodology. I dont think they're the first ones to do this (i could be wrong here...someone correct me if so) doesn't Joye do something similar with their PWM voltage rating? I'm pretty sure that 3.3 "real" volts are not gonna hit anything like a eGo...

On the subject of manuals, i believe that shipping PVs with manuals/instructions increases their chances of siezure in customs significantly, so i understand why they don't typically ship in the PV box. IMO, this doesn't mean units shouldn't come with them, but i think vendors bear some responsibility and play a role in their absence as much as the manufacturers do. Obviously vendors know what they're shipping out to customers, and they could insist on manuals from their manufacturers shipped seperately or they could download/print them in house and include them (the whole no-instruction thing across this industry is a peeve of mine, so forgive me taking the opportunity to do a bit of soapboxin' here ). However, detailed manual/instructions for Vmax are available online for those who want them, i've seen several links here on ECF (maybe even in this thread, lol...if so, apologies).

Just some thoughts...

 

[knivesout]

But then again who knows.. technology in PVs is advancing at lightning speed and in a year, PWM may become the norm instead of something new and all the other devices like the Provari and the LT will have to redesign their devices to include PWM. I mean look at the darwin... who cares about voltage with it..it has it's own set of numbers and it's a well regarded device. But then again a person can easily use an online calculator to convert voltage and resistance into watts.

From the provari FAQ on Provape's website:

Does the ProVari use PWM? (pulse-width modulation)

Yes, the ProVari is using PWM technology

As far as why it seems the PWM in the provari delivers its voltage differently than the vmax? No idea.

Here is my honest opinion of the vmax after 3 weeks.

+ It´s got some heavy kick in it
+ It looks solid and is not too big.

-Double cell battery
-Button will break as the first thing on the device, once it does. The Vmax is dead.

RIP Vmax.. 3 weeks! It was fun!

That's unfortunate! What about the warranty that was mentioned, will you be able to get it fixed?

 

[AaronY]

My thinking, admittedly based far more on theory than the kind of first-hand experience that you have, has been that the most important thing is to have any coil that is in contact with the juice at "just the right" temperature to properly "motivate" that juice to vaporize, and in turn release its flavor molecules into the vapor so they can then contact my taste buds.

My further thinking has been that to achieve that same temperature on two coils instead of one, that twice the number of total watts would be required, and would really just be (approximately) doubling the amount of vapor; but it's less apparent or intuitive to me that it would be approximately doubling, or even significantly increasing, the amount of flavor or throat hit.

The popularity of the many single-coil tank systems out there make me wonder if they are all somehow sacrificing a large amount of TFV by using just one coil. You seem to be stating categorically that they are. Not saying that what you are citing from personal experience is "wrong"; just again, trying to understand the science behind it. That said, the "placebo effect" has sound (IMO) science to support it.

Their is evidence behind it. Just need to find it. It is not twice as much doubling the number of coils. What is TFV?

 

[John D in CT]

Here is my honest opinion of the vmax after 3 weeks.

+ It´s got some heavy kick in it
+ It looks solid and is not too big.

-Double cell battery
-Button will break as the first thing on the device, once it does. The Vmax is dead.

RIP Vmax.. 3 weeks! It was fun!

Lassep -

Having a problem here, and wondering if you can help me out. Just a couple of things that don't sufficiently satisfy my curiosity. Here's the source of my dissatisfaction:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ech-vmax-price-point-wrong-3.html#post6036182

I got two straight from the factory.

1 was sold, the other one died within 3 weeks.

Major button malfunction, it just would not fire or click.

it gradually got harder to activate the button over the weekend and yesterday it just went.. cya later ....ers!

and now i have got a nice $128 wall decoration that i don´t even think is that nice anyway.


Some civil, yet pointed questions:

How did you "get two from the factory", when the minimum order is 50. If they were for evaluation purposes, do you know that they are the exact same as what is being shipped out now? And what color/finish are they, please?

If you got them from the factory, can you understand my confusion when you refer to it as a "$128 dollar wall decoration?" And would you be willing to eliminate that confusion by emailing me a copy of any paperwork you might have on the transaction?

And lastly, if you didn't have a complaint about the button, would you really be of the opinion "i dont even think is that nice anyway?" I think that almost all of us with still-functioning buttons, and Phil Busardo himself, think that it's actually "pretty nice", to which I would add, "at the very least".

Lastly, I would like to buy your broken VMax from you. Please email me with a price for your wall art, including shipping to Connecticut, USA, zip code 06070. Do you take Paypal?

TIA for your help and consideration.

 

[donnah]

From the provari FAQ on Provape's website:
As far as why it seems the PWM in the provari delivers its voltage differently than the vmax? No idea.

That's unfortunate! What about the warranty that was mentioned, will you be able to get it fixed?

Hmmm...you're right..it does say that the provari uses pwm. Then what and why the difference I wonder.

(And my button doesn't rattle either)

First versions always seem to be a bit buggy. Surely there's a warrenty for longer than 3 weeks! Just send it back and get it fixed.

 

[John D in CT]

Their is evidence behind it. Just need to find it. It is not twice as much doubling the number of coils. What is TFV?

Oh yeah, sorry about that. It's a Phil Busardo term; TFV = "throat hit, flavor, and vapor (production)".

And please know that I'm not out to "get into your face" about anything. I really want to get to the bottom of this for my own maximum enjoyment of vaping, and for that of people that I know or maybe haven't even met yet. I'll be doing a lot of experimenting on my own, but the "single coil" thing just keeps striking me as the "way to go", for the reasons I've previously stated (with no obvious shortage of detail).

Thanks.

 

[John D in CT]

Hmmm...you're right..it does say that the provari uses pwm. Then what and why the difference I wonder.

(And my button doesn't rattle either)

First versions always seem to be a bit buggy. Surely there's a warranty for longer than 3 weeks! Just send it back and get it fixed.

Hey, another good point. Wish I'd thought of it.

 

[FsckCigs]

This just in....this just in....


Just a quick interjection: the $128.99 floor has been broken (lol, that didn't take long, did it?)...Nick at Goodejuice is doing $119.99 (black only at the moment). His ECF10 discount code puts it @ $107.99 shipped.


And......so it begins