Nhaler Post Censoring (He who controls the presses...)

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I just would like to reiterate-this problem is not Nhaler-specific at all. It is a forum-wide issue, and it just so happens that Drew has been taking flack all morning for multiple issues-some really petty, and one in particular that is troubling.It seems some people are just looking for a chance to be in the spotlight here, IMO.

Anyway, I've said my piece.

-J4mmin

I understand the point you're trying to make, but I don't think you are taking full consideration of all the issues at play. The supplier forums here are moderated by the company that pays for them. They don't pay for a forum so that spammers and trolls can plug a competitors product and post links to improve their google pagerank.

Suppliers aren't allowed to post in the review forum and they aren't allowed to comment about other suppliers so it would be a violation of the TOS for Drew to respond to a question about a competitor. By changing it to "other suppliers", he was able to answer the question without violating the TOS.

Its a case of a forum moderator moderating a forum. I understand that it kinda "looks" bad, but when you look at the larger picture you realize it was the right thing to do.
 

olderthandirt

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Sorry to take so long, Olderthandirt. Hungry wife. Had to finally get off the 'puter and make breakfast.

Go to the post, click on Last edited by Drewsworld

This brings you to a new screen. Click on the button with the legend; 'Compare Versions.'

I never knew! That is so cool!

I just did a quick edit on one of my posts elsewhere to check it out, slick.

Thanks Kona!
 

beckah54

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That sucks! It says I don't have permission to view that page. Drat!!!!

Sorry to take so long, Olderthandirt. Hungry wife. Had to finally get off the 'puter and make breakfast.

Go to the post, click on Last edited by Drewsworld

This brings you to a new screen. Click on the button with the legend; 'Compare Versions.'
 
This would have to be the one rule on ECF that I think is just wrong. There is no reason a vendor should be able to edit/delete posts from thier sub-forum. Trolling/Spamming is one exception I could think of. But dissenting opinions? C'mon guys. Set up your own forum if you want everything to be seen through rose colored glasses.

This is nothing against Drew, just my take on free market forums. Let the customers see the good and bad so they can make a truly informed buying decision.

Actually, it's the vendor's subforum, so they can edit/remove posts at will. I don't notice Drew removing "dissenting" opinions. In fact I've seen him leave up posts complaining about any number of things, from shipping charges to juice to the XHaler. But he's well within his rights to edit posts that mention other suppliers by name. I don't think it's fair to try and characterize that as a "dissenting opinion."

We have a juice review forum, which would be the appropriate place to compare juices. It's here. I have to agree it's not cool to come onto a vendor's subforum and start asking whether people might like the e-juice better from another vendor.
 

KonaNeil

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My comment was not entirely based on this person's dealing with Nhaler, more a comment on how ECF deals with vendors who pay to use the site for advertising. I can not think of anywhere else that I as businessman can filter out complaints to my liking.

I guess it was my error in thinking I was participating in an internet forum when I was actually expected to function as a bit player in an advertisement.

You put it well Mr. Jamez. I too don't know of anywhere else that as a businessman I can wave my hand and make consumer complaints vanish from the public eye. Further, comparisons of competing products are a key, established focus of product based forums. To disallow these is to take away the honesty intrinsic to a forum.

For decades, as a consumer electronics manufacturer, my fortunes would rise and fall depending on reviews in enthusiast magazines and customer opinion in user forums. The end users expected and received transparency and honesty. There were exceptions to this rule in Chinese magazines but hey, no one ever accused China of being a free speech country. However, even in China, discussion in product forums is uncensored.

Now that I know that the dealer specific areas of this site are advertisements masquerading as forums rather than actual forums I will read them as PR releases if at all. To even call them 'forums' is Orwellian. It is though unfortunate that many will not know this and believe they are taking part in free discourse.

If anyone feels I'm expecting too much, please read the definitions for forum: forum - definition of forum by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

fo·rum (fôr
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-)n. pl. fo·rums also fo·ra (fôr
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) 1. a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.

2. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.
3. A court of law; a tribunal.
 

scottjamez

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i posted a bad review on parkers website... dietsmokes ... he didnt allow it... makes sense why the only reviews on his website at all 5 stars claiming how awesome his website is and customer service blah blah blah... learn from your mistakes i guess... funny i put a reply on a "trouble with dietsmokes" thread in the dietsmokes sub-forum and he never replied to it.... customer service my A**

If a person has a forum on their sales site, sure go ahead and edit all you like. You can't really hold much weight in a comment you read on a web site anyway if it is on the same site that is trying to sell you something. Not responding to a customer complaint on a public forum is just a waste of advertising money spent.
 
Now that I know that the dealer specific areas of this site are advertisements masquerading as forums rather than actual forums I will read them as PR releases if at all. To even call them 'forums' is Orwellian. It is though unfortunate that many will not know this and believe they are taking part in free discourse.

This is misrepresentation of the facts that have been presented to you. You have already been given proof that dissenting opinions are allowed on the Nhaler forum. It was explained that suppliers are forbidden from participating in review threads, and Drew could not ethically answer a question about a specific competitor so he had two choices:

1. Leave the question about a competitor unanswered.
2. Make a non-substantive edit and answer the question.

You might prefer for Drew to leave the question unanswered, but discussions of products from competitors are off-topic. If you want to talk about somebody else's juice, go to the appropriate forum.

Not only was Drew within his rights to moderate his own forum, he was ethical and prudent to do so.

Your implication that this is an abridgement of free speech are unfounded. The Nhaler forum is designed to be a place to talk openly with the employees and customers of Nhaler about Nhaler. It would be unethical for Drew or his employees to discuss the products of his competitors, and it is unreasonable for you to expect otherwise.
 

j4mmin42

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I understand the point you're trying to make, but I don't think you are taking full consideration of all the issues at play. The supplier forums here are moderated by the company that pays for them. They don't pay for a forum so that spammers and trolls can plug a competitors product and post links to improve their google pagerank.

Suppliers aren't allowed to post in the review forum and they aren't allowed to comment about other suppliers so it would be a violation of the TOS for Drew to respond to a question about a competitor. By changing it to "other suppliers", he was able to answer the question without violating the TOS.

Its a case of a forum moderator moderating a forum. I understand that it kinda "looks" bad, but when you look at the larger picture you realize it was the right thing to do.


You make some good points: I did realize that the vendors have to pay for their forums before I made my post; I also realise that vendors such as Drew are not allowed to post in the "reviews" section...which of course I see as a great feature of ECF.

All day, I've been trying to come up with a constructive solution to add to the conversation, but apparently this has been pretty well thought out, as I just can't see any other way to allow vendors the control they deserve for paying for their private forums...

As a former internet-based businessman, I am more than familiar with Pagerank and the methods some people choose to keep their site at the top of the pile; I take your point here, I'm sure stuff like that has happened here before.

My new opinion is that there may very well be a better way to structure things, but any time you start to take away parts of a service someone is paying to use, it's opening a can of worms.

I wish I had a better solution here, but right now I would just recommend that the average user stick to the other sections of the forum in order to make any informed decisions- and I can't stress that enough! When it's time to buy, go ahead and look there for the best deals, etc.

I won't redact my previous statement-that would make me a hypocrite-but this serves as notice that I've changed my opinion, somewhat;
Caveat Emptor.:evil:

-J4mmin
 

KonaNeil

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This is misrepresentation of the facts that have been presented to you. You have already been given proof that dissenting opinions are allowed on the Nhaler forum...

Not really. A couple people suggested that dissenting opinions are not tolerated and one woman said they are. Neither constitutes proof.

...It was explained that suppliers are forbidden from participating in review threads, and Drew could not ethically answer a question about a specific competitor so he had two choices:

1. Leave the question about a competitor unanswered.
2. Make a non-substantive edit and answer the question...

No. He didn't answer the question. I wasn't looking for his answer anyway though I would have been interested in any insight he might have given me. If this quandry really existed, he could have PM'ed me. The personal contact likely would have made me into a customer.

I posted my question because I searched for and found a thread where people were discussing the Lung Juices. I didn't even notice it was a 'paid for' thread. I hoped for input from experienced users of these specific products.

Regarding competitive products; we're not talking about a car or boat here where the purchase of one negates the purchase of another. Most of us have a collection of juices. If someone who sounded knowledgable had suggested I buy each of the Lung flavors and the Health juice too so as not to get bored, I would have done so. This would have cost less than a carton of analogs.

What he did do was to make my question vague and nebulous enough that no one answered it. His action left me with the (unsubstantiated) feeling that his was possibly a copy of the Chinese juice and that he didn't want others to know about the original. Mostly though; if you go to the thread, there's my forum name and avatar and I'm shown saying something I didn't say and he even removed the option of editing my own (altered) post. This is offensive.

...Kona, what can I say? I was wrong. You have logic and truth on your side. I was just trying to protect my friend...

Even though the above paragraph is obviously bogus, see how it makes you feel when I misquote you?

...Your implication that this is an abridgement of free speech are unfounded. The Nhaler forum is designed to be a place to talk openly with the employees and customers of Nhaler about Nhaler. It would be unethical for Drew or his employees to discuss the products of his competitors, and it is unreasonable for you to expect otherwise.

What you're describing is a store, on-line or otherwise. The place where I posted didn't look like a store. It looked like a forum thread. Even in a brick and mortar store, customers bring up the subject of other people's products without offending the retailer.
 
Not really. A couple people suggested that dissenting opinions are not tolerated and one woman said they are. Neither constitutes proof.

Here's proof: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...k-folks-bad-service-hater-lovers-welcome.html

If you read through that thread and still think that Drew does not tolerate dissenting opinions on his forum, you and I have a dissenting opinion on what constitutes a dissenting opinion. ;)

No. He didn't answer the question. I wasn't looking for his answer anyway though I would have been interested in any insight he might have given me. If this quandry really existed, he could have PM'ed me. The personal contact likely would have made me into a customer.


I posted my question because I searched for and found a thread where people were discussing the Lung Juices. I didn't even notice it was a 'paid for' thread. I hoped for input from experienced users of these specific products.

Regarding competitive products; we're not talking about a car or boat here where the purchase of one negates the purchase of another. Most of us have a collection of juices. If someone who sounded knowledgable had suggested I buy each of the Lung flavors and the Health juice too so as not to get bored, I would have done so. This would have cost less than a carton of analogs.

What he did do was to make my question vague and nebulous enough that no one answered it. His action left me with the (unsubstantiated) feeling that his was possibly a copy of the Chinese juice and that he didn't want others to know about the original. Mostly though; if you go to the thread, there's my forum name and avatar and I'm shown saying something I didn't say and he even removed the option of editing my own (altered) post. This is offensive.[/quote]

I'm sorry you're offended. Perhaps you should ask Drew to remove the question?

I think it is safe to say that Drew either has not or would not publish a comparison of his liquids to those of his competitors. I think he left the question open and vague to allow 3rd parties to answer if they have compared Drew's Lung Juice to other juices...so far noone who has read your question over the past week has compared Drew's juices to other juices.

Even though the above paragraph is obviously bogus, see how it makes you feel when I misquote you?

In this case, my feelings aren't hurt to be honest. It wouldn't be accurate to describe Drew as a friend of mine since our interactions with each other have been fairly limited. He is a colleague of mine at CASAA, and based on my first and secondhand experience with him, I think I would consider it an honor to call Drew & Angie my friend if it were so.

What you're describing is a store, on-line or otherwise. The place where I posted didn't look like a store. It looked like a forum thread. Even in a brick and mortar store, customers bring up the subject of other people's products without offending the retailer.

A store is where goods are kept or sold. Like the Nhaler forum, the Nhaler store is hosted by a 3rd party that Nhaler subscribes to. Apparently you either didn't notice the heading "Supporting Suppliers" or realize that "supporting suppliers" is a nice way of saying "Suppliers who pay to be here"

Nhaler could have simply used a freeforums.org to create a communication forum for his customers. However, like many other suppliers that have their forum here at ECF, he saw value in putting his forum here where there is an established community and he does not need to duplicate efforts to give people a place to discuss matters not directly related to Nhaler's business but are likely to be important to his customers.
 

beckah54

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KonaNeil,

There are numerous subforums that you could have posted your question in, without fear of editing.

It is considered bad forum etiquette to mention another vendor's products in a specific supplier's thread. Most of the folks that post on the Nhaler subforum are Nhaler customers and they are not going to recommend or compare another supplier's products with Drew's eliquid.... not on his dime.

Ask your question in the appropriate forum and I'm sure many peeps will give their opinions.
 

Nuck

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KonaNeil

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