Nicotine Comparisons

[52anddone]

BTW, is Box Elder still in business ?

 

[Kurt]

BTW, is Box Elder still in business ?

Not any more, at least not under that name. Even if they were still around, not likely it would be the same nic as 4 years ago. And I've not seen any nic like Brad's since. Still one of my favorites.

 

[52anddone]

Not any more, at least not under that name. Even if they were still around, not likely it would be the same nic as 4 years ago. And I've not seen any nic like Brad's since. Still one of my favorites.

Thanks Kurt. I've found this whole thread Very interesting, the state of L-Nicotine in particular and the progression thereof. I have found that the surest way for Me is just to follow what You have said about the subject. I have ALL your posts book marked where ever I see them as I am now just dipping my feet into the DIY mixing pool. I feel like I have been taking a College Course that I didn't knowingly sign up for. RTS 36mg/ml Nic, RTS PG and VG are what I am mixing up at 6mg/ml 50/50 Target strength for my first excursion into DIY comparing to pre mix MBV 6mg/ml 50/50. I started with 2 clean and freshly coiled/wicked with KGD Lemo V2 RTA's setup with 1.7 ohm, 2.5mm ID triple twisted 34g Kanthal A-1 single coils set at 15 Watts. I prefer a very tight airflow for MTL, but on occasion open the airflow wide open and reset the Wattage up to 22-25 for a few hits. I don't know if MBV uses RTS Nic or what. I can't seem to find any meaningful difference in the mixes (except for Color). Smell is too close to call, Flavor is Clean and Clear for both, Throat Sensation is All But The Same, No detected After Taste, I don't know. Maybe I just can't do a Comparison Test like Ya'll do. I'm thinking that my 52 years of Cigarettes, Cigars, Pipe's, RedMan Chewing tobacco, Plug Tobacco, Snus (did I miss one ?) have ruined my senses enough that I can't detect the small (or Not so small) differences attributed to either (I'm not so sure I could tell the difference in taste between a Dog Turd and an unwrapped Tootsie Roll). I have found that I like Both equally (juice's guys, not Dog Turds/Tootsie Rolls ). My 60ml bottle of RTS 36mg/ml Nic came to me Clear, like water with bottles tightly capped but NO bottle seals, while my MBV comes with a little Yellow-ish/Tan-ish tint in 6mg/ml strength (I also have MBV 18mg/ml strength pre mix that arrives to me more towards Brownish in color, 2 different orders of 18mg/ml, 2 different bottle fill dates, same color, but NO smell I can detect) and Tightly capped and bottles with seals in tact. That's all I got guys, Sorry for the lack of Drama here but both are equal (except for color) as far as I'm concerned. The difference in color I am attributing to differing oxidation rates possibly thru different handling protocols (assuming the same extraction process at the same plant, see Kurt, I WAS paying attention the other day in class) before I receive my order. I have received ONE 236ml bottle from MBV (but only 1 bottle out of the 10 I have bought so far) that leaked in the packaging prior to my opening it, the cap not screwed on very tight and the seal obviously not done properly, what a mess, but the other 236ml bottle in the same package was A-OK as usual for my 50/50 mix.

BTW, This test is with Unflavored ONLY !!

 

[52anddone]

Everything above is the same, I have both Lemo's on Identical Sigelei mini 30W devices set at 15 Watts Tight MTL for some of the time and 25 Watts Wide Open LH's for the rest, both Lemo's with same factory drip tips (even the same length drip tips as there are 2 different lengths that came out). I had my Grand-son switch which setup I was vaping on and give it to me (my eyes were closed, No cheating) several times and mix them up on me. I just cannot tell the difference in taste, smell, or after taste. I will say now that I will HAVE to see documentation proving that MBV DOES NOT use RTS as their source for Nic (and PG/VG even), it's that close to me. If I can see them, even apart from each other, I WILL be able to tell which is which EVERY time just by the liquid color. What Luck, I now have a backup source to MBV, and it's cheaper from RTS mixing it myself. What are the odds ??

NEXT, I will try the same with my Unflavored/Menthol mix (10:1 ratio), but don't hold any reason to believe any change in outcome.

 

[JeremyR]

Lol!



Hilarious, guess I found it amusing that I guessed it, sight unseen, as far as you can tell. Lol

Well at least I didn't steer you wrong! Happy its worked for you.

Oxidation definitely plays into the color. Rts is fresh, mbv is who knows how long it's been exposed. I've noticed rts doesnt change in its qualities as its ages even though the color does.

Next try the ecx (nicselect) for a good natural tobacco flavor in the nic if you want that.

 

[mhertz]

My advice for taste testing nic, is to double the nic used normally, if 6mg and under. Second, if at all possible take big direct lung inhales, as you get much more vapor to perceive the taste from than mtl. Other than that, of course it help with as much surface area as possible on the coils and proper wattage and really good dripper, rta or tank...

I really don't like the taste of nic, and found out about it only with the above procedures. In e.g. 3mg, with clean nics, it takes the edge out of the sweetness of vg, which is nice as it's too sweet by itself imho, and on other nics there can be some tobacco taste, but the actual nic taste is just barely perceived to me. The actual nic taste to me comes from 6mg and above.

Obviously every test should be unflavored...

Edit: When I say I don't like the taste of nic, then it's not pepper, tobacco taste or throat-hit I mind, as that's fine by me, but the actual nic taste besides that... It's to me a taste of some e.g. ammonia or the likes...

 

[52anddone]

My advice for taste testing nic, is to double the nic used normally, if 6mg and under. Second, if at all possible take big direct lung inhales, as you get much more vapor to perceive the taste from than mtl. Other than that, of course it help with as much surface area as possible on the coils and proper wattage and really good dripper, rta or tank...

I really don't like the taste of nic, and found out about it only with the above procedures. In e.g. 3mg, with clean nics, it takes the edge out of the sweetness of vg, which is nice as it's too sweet by itself imho, and on other nics there can be some tobacco taste, but the actual nic taste is just barely perceived to me. The actual nic taste to me comes from 6mg and above.

Obviously every test should be unflavored...

Edit: When I say I don't like the taste of nic, then it's not pepper, tobacco taste or throat-hit I mind, as that's fine by me, but the actual nic taste besides that... It's to me a taste of some e.g. ammonia or the likes...

10/4 on the Ammonia Taste, I remember that taste when I first started the vaping game in Aug. 2014. I bought my first setup (Vision Spinner2 1600mAh/EVDO2 and extra coil heads) and some e-juice from the Saffire store in Clarksville,Tennessee up by Ft. Campbell, Ky. where my daughter took me to see if I liked E-Cigs better than cigarettes. At the time, I liked that juice (some Tobacco flavor) better than cigarettes and bought about (6) 10ml bottles of 12mg/ml nic (the salesman told me that that's the strength I needed for just coming off of cigarettes, Marlboro Reds which I tore the filters off of ) in 2 different flavors for about $6.99 per bottle (they were having a sale) "If memory serves me correctly" along with the hardware (I dropped about $150 for the price of entry). I didn't notice the Ammonia taste/smell till I got some store juice from a S.Dakota E-cig store 2 weeks later where my Other daughter lives and tried different flavors there, Boy Howdy did that ever taste Good in comparison to what I had, and That's when I noticed the difference in the Saffire juice, N-A-S-T-Y . It never dawned on me what that taste was until YOU mentioned AMMONIA just now, that rang a bell, I never thought about it before. That was Brilliant mhertz, Thanks for that.

I didn't think of upping the nic from my usual 6mg/ml to 12mg/ml for the test, never entered my mind (at times I'm Not the sharpest pencil in the box) as this is 1 of several First's for me. First real DIY mixing, First Nic comparison, First time handling Base Nic juice and ALL the safety concerns involved (although I did order only 36mg/ml from RTS and not 100mg/ml on my first go around). I didn't die or run the family out of the house due to a Toxic Substance Spill and the Fire Dept./OSHA/HAZMAT arriving at my door , Whew, dodged one there, thanks to reading Kurt's many Outstanding Posts. I just wish everyone could be MADE to read Kurt's posts BEFORE venturing into DIY (just from a safety standpoint). Thank You Kurt for ALL that you have done in this regard.

 

[52anddone]

Lol!



Hilarious, guess I found it amusing that I guessed it, sight unseen, as far as you can tell. Lol

Well at least I didn't steer you wrong! Happy its worked for you.

Oxidation definitely plays into the color. Rts is fresh, mbv is who knows how long it's been exposed. I've noticed rts doesnt change in its qualities as its ages even though the color does.

Next try the ecx (nicselect) for a good natural tobacco flavor in the nic if you want that.

(Oh you better be saving all my posts too, lol)

Jeremy, I have read a S... Load of you're posts (The Rayon Thread in particular), every page from the beginning, till I went into the hospital for about a week and the site upgraded (all at the same time) and I lost my place (way before part 2). I've tried to find where I left off but just ended up guessing and going from there, I'm still hopelessly behind. All I have read from you're posts has led me to be very confident in your findings and opinions (I've read your history of Research that you posted in the Rayon thread for your Credentials on the Rayon Research you did), so I just went with what you suggested as I figured that even if it was just a educated guess, it would be way better than anything I could have thought up at this stage of the game.

ECX huh ?? Okie Dokie. I will do that (now that we have a good base line to start with) and I'm just guessing myself that you know ECX (nicselect) better than MBV. I do like the idea of the tobacco flavor I might encounter in an Unflavored nic base (if I can taste it that is), I don't want a bland (transparent/invisible) nic. RTS/MBV are NOT invisible nic's either, I just can't tell you what they are, I'm not that well tuned to taste or smell, but I do like them. I'm holding off on building up my stash till I find something REALLY good, maybe ECX is the one, who knows.

"(Oh you better be saving all my posts too, lol)"
Good One I'll see if I have the Hard Drive Space, I've only got 620 Gig to work with here.

Thank You Jeremy for the help starting out, I really appreciate it. I was shocked at my findings also in the comparison. What are the odds ??

 

[JeremyR]

Na, I was just giving you a hard time.. We'll be here just ask anything directly in the thread. We don't mind. The search thread function is a valuable tool finding info in these large threads. Rayon Part 2 intro overviews it, 15,000 posts is a lot to read. Lol

 

[52anddone]

Na, I was just giving you a hard time.. We'll be here just ask anything directly in the thread. We don't mind. The search thread function is a valuable tool finding info in these large threads. Rayon Part 2 intro overviews it, 15,000 posts is a lot to read. Lol

I know you were Jeremy, No problem. I Have read the Rayon Part-2 Overview but I just HATE not being able to finish what I had previously started, that's all. This MBV/RTS just blows me away. I will try ECX in a couple of weeks though and report back to you. That should be fun.

P.S. I've read from Pages 1-70 in this thread so far (I hope the site doesn't do another software upgrade on me) and find the whole "Nic evolution" thru-out the years quite fascinating to be sure. It puts the state of Nic today into perspective. In comparison to today, the state of Nic in 2009 was like crossing the "Great Plains" in a "Covered Wagon".

 

[sketchness]

Vapers tek has throat hit nic on sale cheap. You might give it a whirl? @52anddone

 

[52anddone]

Vapers tek has throat hit nic on sale cheap. You might give it a whirl? @52anddone

Thanks sketchness , I'll write that one down to try that along with Jeremy's ECX suggestion. Thanks again. I only use Unflavored and Unflavored/Menthol in a 10:1 ratio. I have 2 RTA's beside me most of the time and just switch between the 2 depending on mood, 1 filled with Unflavored and 1 filled with Unflavored/Menthol 10:1 mix. Nothing fancy here, I'm a bit Simple I guess.

 

[52anddone]

Na, I was just giving you a hard time.. We'll be here just ask anything directly in the thread. We don't mind. The search thread function is a valuable tool finding info in these large threads. Rayon Part 2 intro overviews it, 15,000 posts is a lot to read. Lol

I liked you're Banner, so I stole one for myself. Thanks !

 

[52anddone]

Just out of Curiosity, Sorry here a bit but has to do with mhertz suggestion of doubling my nic from 6mg/ml to 12mg/ml for testing (which I haven't tried yet). I just got back from the ER a few min. ago (A-fib, heart rate went up to 185 and very irregular yesterday afternoon so went to ER and they kept me overnight and wasn't till this morn'in that it finally came back down) and started to thinking about my testing and vaping more quantities of nic while doing my comparison of the 2 different mixes over the last few days. I usually vape about 4ml per day, but went up to about 6-7ml for a few days during my testing, Any chance of that having anything to do with my sudden A-fib attach ?? I also drink (6) 12oz. cans of Pepsi per day (been do'in that since I was about 12 years old though) so the extra added stimulant of more nic in combination with my testing ?? Is there a Doctor in the house ?? I'm NOT worried mind you, just curious as to maybe IF there might be something going on here that I don't know, before I double my nic for testing in the future.

Edit: I'm, at this point thinking NO, but then again, I don't know Every thing.

Thanks.

 

[sketchness]

Just out of Curiosity, Sorry here a bit but has to do with mhertz suggestion of doubling my nic from 6mg/ml to 12mg/ml for testing (which I haven't tried yet). I just got back from the ER a few min. ago (A-fib, heart rate went up to 185 and very irregular yesterday afternoon so went to ER and they kept me overnight and wasn't till this morn'in that it finally came back down) and started to thinking about my testing and vaping more quantities of nic while doing my comparison of the 2 different mixes over the last few days. I usually vape about 4ml per day, but went up to about 6-7ml for a few days during my testing, Any chance of that having anything to do with my sudden A-fib attach ?? I also drink (6) 12oz. cans of Pepsi per day (been do'in that since I was about 12 years old though) so the extra added stimulant of more nic in combination with my testing ?? Is there a Doctor in the house ?? I'm NOT worried mind you, just curious as to maybe IF there might be something going on here that I don't know, before I double my nic for testing in the future.

I have been zapped out of afib a few times with a defibrillator. I have found no correlation with how much I vape to episodes of afib. I have found that the fatter I am the more debilitating an episode. Or when I have a cold I am much more susceptible. But vaping hasn't affected it at all.

 

[52anddone]

I have been zapped out of afib a few times with a defibrillator. I have found no correlation with how much I vape to episodes of afib. I have found that the fatter I am the more debilitating an episode. Or when I have a cold I am much more susceptible. But vaping hasn't affected it at all.

Wow, did not know about the weight, or the having a cold. Thank You for that Sketchness.

 

[mhertz]

Sorry to hear that and hope you feel better now, 52anddone

Anyways, in my experience, when I get nic-sick, then my heart-rate goes up and I get nauseous for about an hour afterwards...

You don't have to up your nic at all, and many doesn't when testing, but it was just something that I myself really found very productive in getting to know the actual taste of nic in itself and of course the differences between brands. Likewise, as I said, direct lung inhales, for me, gives also a much more complete flavor profile. I get the better picture of the taste after about 2-3 secs into the drag, on a 4-5 sec drag, which mtl for me often don't replicate.... Maybe it's just me, but that's just my experience.

Before I made that test, then I only could differentiate the tobacco, pepper, vg/pg-sweetness-muting-effect and throat-hit aspects of the nics, but now that I know the taste of the nic in itself, then I can much better pinpoint that vague taste in my usual 3mg unflavored mix also, which I had bigger problems with before that.

To me, the actual taste of nic resembles something along the lines of some alkaline sodium-hydroxide corrosive unpalatable chemical taste or something. Of course, the tobacco notes that can still be there are fine, but raw nic is some poison in plants used to protect them from bugs or something I believe, and that posion of course isn't tasting like good tobacco or anything, but is just chemical tasting, atleast to me...

Btw, some professor also once described the alkaline taste, to be a function and not a taste, but of the 'common chemical sense', since an alkaline taste is chemically irritating to the tongue(tip of tongue)... I'm guessing that i'm very sensitive to this irritation of the tastebuds on the tip of the tongue, since i'm e.g. also very sensitive to sour and other tastes in real life and generally am extremely picky...

In conclusion, don't do anything you don't feel comfortable with, mate!

 

[JeremyR]

Just out of Curiosity, Sorry here a bit but has to do with mhertz suggestion of doubling my nic from 6mg/ml to 12mg/ml for testing (which I haven't tried yet). I just got back from the ER a few min. ago (A-fib, heart rate went up to 185 and very irregular yesterday afternoon so went to ER and they kept me overnight and wasn't till this morn'in that it finally came back down) and started to thinking about my testing and vaping more quantities of nic while doing my comparison of the 2 different mixes over the last few days. I usually vape about 4ml per day, but went up to about 6-7ml for a few days during my testing, Any chance of that having anything to do with my sudden A-fib attach ?? I also drink (6) 12oz. cans of Pepsi per day (been do'in that since I was about 12 years old though) so the extra added stimulant of more nic in combination with my testing ?? Is there a Doctor in the house ?? I'm NOT worried mind you, just curious as to maybe IF there might be something going on here that I don't know, before I double my nic for testing in the future.

Edit: I'm, at this point thinking NO, but then again, I don't know Every thing.

Thanks.

Yes, it probably was.. nic od causes many issues like heart racing ect. Sometimes you can't tell your od on nic. Because of different symptoms. It doesn't usually last that long but a build up in the system could happen.

Be careful with it, nic is no joke.. Especially if you have heart problems. Your freebasing nicotine.. you can overdo it without realizing.

I'm young and if I doubled my intake I would feel very wierd, possibly have some mild heart palpitations on the OD peaks, or tight chest or dizzy, out of it, ect.... also wouldn't go to sleep unless I stoped vaping for an hour.

A difference in my daily vape of just 3 mg more nic in my juice can be way too much for adv, you can feel the nic, eventually its just hazy.

Your best cure for nic od is typically a teaspoon of sugar, dissolved in your mouth. This speeds the detoxification process of nicotine through the system, reducing the duration of symptoms greatly. Coca-cola has been regarded as sweet enough to do the job... If your drinking that poison diet stuff, it won't work.

 

[52anddone]

Thanks guy's. I live up here in Minnesota where Mayo has their headquarters so that's what I have to deal with. While Mayo is good for most things, a person doesn't want to utter the word V-A-P-I-N-G as it will be met with a chorus of Anti (ANTZ) Vaping rhetoric and never get any useful information on the subject after that (even from Cardiologist), so I thought to come here and ask YOU. I have alot of confidence in getting questions Vaping related answered truthfully and without any bias in regards to health and safety. When in doubt, I will come here and ask the pro's.

 

[JeremyR]

of course, the tobacco notes that can still be there are fine, but raw nic is some poison in plants used to protect them from bugs or something I believe, and that posion of course isn't tasting like good tobacco or anything, but is just chemical tasting, atleast to me...

Lol

That line cracked me up!

Yeah there's a definite chemical taste from manufacturing.

Higher nic does really make the flavor of it stronger. So its easier to tell the differences for sure. Just only a few vapes at a time.