Good thread on syn nic-https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/synthetic-nicotine-is-there-really-such-a-thing.47322/page-2
Nicotine Comparisons
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In the United States, all the FDA regulatory actions are based on nicotine being a tobacco product. Is it possible some relief can be found in non-tobacco based nicotine?
Since they own regulation of the tobacco AND the pharma side of the product, they could do most anything they want to, IMO.
Right now, it's said to cost 13 times the price of nic extracted from tobacco. That will come down as the research and development costs are absorbed by sales.
Will synthetic nicotine save vaping industry from FDA e-cig regulations?
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Current prices at Hiliq
$50 for 100ml @100mg/ml
$300 for a litre @100mg/ml
$50 for 100ml @100mg/ml
$300 for a litre @100mg/ml
It's not clear to me that Hiliq is synthetic or that it is extracted from some source other than tobacco.
According to the Hiliq website, it is synthesized from scratch, not extracted in any way from tobacco. They might get away with it for a while, but the FDA will figure it out pretty fast and close that loophole.
Synthetic and Non-Tobacco derived may well be two different matters.
While I haven't pored through every bit of the Hiliq site, I see nothing obvious where it is said that Hiliq is 'synthesized from scratch.' I'm not qualified to interpret their use of the terminology, "Molecular Chemistry" in this context...could mean a lot of things as far as I know.
Indeed they do say their nicotine is "non-tobacco" derived. While there are ample references to synthetic nicotine, I find no clear statement that indicates, 'our nicotine is synthetically created.' Is their marketing department utilizing synthetic nicotine window dressing to create the impression that their product is synthetic? Or perhaps they are using 'synthetic' to mean 'non-tobacco derived.'
Nicotine from other natural sources of nicotine such as nicotiana benthamiana which is found in Australia could be utilized and could, in the eyes of a producer count as "non-tobacco" derived. I wouldn't consider such as being 'synthetic.' Marketing/Advertising can offer a host of illusions. As long as such illusions are not offered in complete sentences it's hard to claim deceit.
I'm not saying Hiliq's nicotine is not synthetic, but more clearly, they indicate 'non-tobacco' derived. In absence of a clear statement, I'll reserve judgment.
If I am missing some clear statement that Hiliq's nicotine is 'synthesized from scratch,' I look forward to reading that.
For others, as far as cost, their product seems to be priced in the range of 5 or 6 times the market rate for tobacco derived nicotine.
Well, they clearly state it's not extracted from tobacco. So either they're extracting it from millions of tomatoes, or they're building it out of precursor chemicals. Those about the only ways I know of to make any molecule, extract the natural or build the synthetic.
The classification of nicotine as a tobacco product may enjoy freedom for awhile. Eventually, the FDA will make some sort of move on its classification.
Chemistry is pretty amazing. Water is Hydrogen and Oxygen. If you separate the two, they return to gases. One will pop and explode and the other will flare up in the presence of a flame. If you mix them together in the right proportions they will extinguish a fire.
It's magic, I tell you! So is synthetic nic, especially if the FDA can't declare it to be a tobacco product.
Oh, that's easy. Nicotine is a tobacco product if extracted from tobacco, and a drug if synthesized from scratch. And if you want to get your nicotine approved as a drug, feel free to submit a New Drug Application. If you think the PMTAs feel excessive and burdensome, wait until you get a load of an NDA.
Feel free to contact them but after reading their representatives post on AVF Australia it is synthesized from scratch.
"The reason why we do not call it Synthetic but NTN or Non-tobacco Nicotine.
We are actually an all-around nicotine solutions company so we offer both so customers can have an option to select whichever suit their needs and preference".
"The reason why we do not call it Synthetic but NTN or Non-tobacco Nicotine.
We are actually an all-around nicotine solutions company so we offer both so customers can have an option to select whichever suit their needs and preference".
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Carolina nic costs me $250 US per litre delivered to AUS. I'm more concerned about NTN safety (I think this is the real reason they don't use the word synthetic) , however it has USP certification and is guaranteed 99.9% pure.
Are there enough impurities in naturally derived nicotine to be concerned with? I think most likely there are in some. Nude Nicotine advertises their nicotine as GC/MS 'evaluated'. I would like to see the GC/MS results of Carolina considering they only use carbon dioxide for extraction.
There have been studies that have found some evidence of impurities etc.
Chemical analyses for nicotine impurities on e-liquids: have we learned something important?
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Yeah, I'm a NN user. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate early adopters. Without them, we might not have ecigs today!
I know of another company synthesizing nicotine to get around the FDA regs for tobacco products. New Generation is the name. Thing is, this is NOT enantiomerically pure l-nic, it is a racemic mixture of d-nic and l-nic. Synthesizing just l-nic, which is what comes from tobacco, would be about 500x as expensive as extracted l-nic. d-nic is psychoactive, but only about half as much as l-nic...and we don't know about long term use of it in the body. We know a ton about l-nic, and l-nic IS the nicotine that the FDA is regulating, either OTC nicotine products, or tobacco, but nothing about l-nic at all. So...
1. Synthetic racemic nic is still more expensive than extracted l-nic. How pure is it? Since it is not extracted, and does not go through those steps of purification, I would certainly want to see an analysis of it.
2. It will, at best, be about 75% as active as extracted l-nic, since it is 50:50 d- and l-.
3. The FDA knows nothing about d-nic, and I can't find any papers on long term human consumption effects. None. To the FDA, d-nic might as well be a completely different drug than l-nic.
So I for one am not going to support synthetic nic, let alone even try it. No interest, in my opinion selling racemic nic for vaping is a fool's errand.
1. Synthetic racemic nic is still more expensive than extracted l-nic. How pure is it? Since it is not extracted, and does not go through those steps of purification, I would certainly want to see an analysis of it.
2. It will, at best, be about 75% as active as extracted l-nic, since it is 50:50 d- and l-.
3. The FDA knows nothing about d-nic, and I can't find any papers on long term human consumption effects. None. To the FDA, d-nic might as well be a completely different drug than l-nic.
So I for one am not going to support synthetic nic, let alone even try it. No interest, in my opinion selling racemic nic for vaping is a fool's errand.
What are your thoughts on Carolina nic considering they only use SC carbon dioxide for extraction.
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Sounds interesting, but I have not tried it. Not sure I will, since being in PA with a 40% tax I would have to (eventually) pay about $230/L. Another issue for me would be the specs, which I could not find on their site. I have heard this nic is not tasteless, which could be good or bad to me, depending on the taste itself.
Yea, it costs me $250 US a litre to get it to AUS. I've seen some articles that the process itself seems fine but once again there is no information on 'impurities' which may be also imparted from the tobacco leaf using that specific method.
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