Nicotine Comparisons

[Cyrus Vap]

thanks Kurt!

I'm probably totally misreading something, but doesn't the MFS data say 2012? I'm looking at the AEMSA specs and trying to figure out where exactly the MFS fails, can't seem to figure it out. My brain hurts

 

[r77r7r]

FWIW, the boxed elder's site is at least listing 500ml for $100. Heh... I'd need 4 more people to go in on that with me

Wasn't he also selling at a popular ecig/eliquid place on here?

 

[Bosco]

One thing I noticed in reviewing documentation on the various websites . .

MFS nic base uses chloroform as the solvent and RTS uses Cyclohexane. I have no idea about those 2 chemicals except they are both acceptable solvents - but there is a tiny residual bit of solvent left over in every extraction.

I have no idea what solvent WL uses - thier website says they get thier nic 5-6 times a year from one of the same labs that Johnson and Johnson uses - but not much else . . . .but maybe it's the solvent that makes the difference. I will definitely post back to this thread after I've had a chance to test out the RTS nic.

 

[Kurt]

Cyrus, this is the MFS page I was looking at:

3 liters - Unflavored Nicotine E-Liquid 100mg - MyFreedomSmokes.com

It says 2011. I did not mean to imply he would fail, just that AEMSA requires documentation for every lot. Nic can change. Its not good enough to have docs for one lot a couple years ago. Must continually be current. And just stating a % purity of nic is not enough. What exactly are the impurities, and how much of each are there? He includes most of the ones of concern: solvents, heavy metals, other alkaloids. But he does not include the various TSNAs in the analysis, which we require to be itemized. So the numbers that he shows look very good indeed, quite good, but for what AEMSA requires, they are a bit incomplete, and not current.

To be fair, it is highly unlikely that the TSNAs would be over the limit. Nic this pure would not at all be expected to have high TSNAs, but he would need to spend a bit more to have those quantitated for AEMSA certification. I'm pretty sure ECX and RTS would also show all the right specs, but the specific tests would have to be payed for and the results available.

 

[Kurt]

Wasn't he also selling at a popular ecig/eliquid place on here?

My understanding is Brad owns or owned Gourmet Vapor, which used his nic base. During those dark days, GV went to using MFS, at least for a while. I don't know about the current status.

I'm glad he is back to selling 500 mL again! I was not aware, the last time I looked was several months ago. Realize that before WL and RTS and ECX came along, BE was one of the most popular nics to get. Got rave reviews and whole threads were devoted to singing its praises....like WL is now. This idea of a completely flavorless nic was probably only seen with ExtremeVaping, but the price limited popularity. Strong following, but not big, like MFS and BE. $100 is a touch high...BE was about $80 for 500 mL of 100 mg, but at the time that was CHEAP. Then WL came online at about $56 for 500 mL of 100 mg, but some didn't like the taste in SOME batches. Now John seems to have solved this...and then there was Ice, which I think could be a game changer.

As for residual solvents, I wouldn't want either hexane or CCl4, but if I had to choose, it would be hexane. RTS seems to have less total res solvents, in addition to using an extraction solvent that won't attack the liver. Not a fan of halocarbons. But the taste I got from MFS way back when did not seem like CCl4. Hexane seemed more likely. But in such low amounts, along with the nic and trace oxides, its hard to say.

 

[Cyrus Vap]

oh dang, mystery solved. I was looking at this section:

Our Unflavored Smoke Juice (Nic. Juice, Nicotine Juice) - My Freedom Smokes

Maybe he's using two different batches at the moment, or his web person has been naughty and not updated things

So on fresh buds this a.m. the MFS struck me as more peppery and sharp than WLR, but I'm still getting a similar background from both. I dunno

Kurt, understood on the AEMSA guidelines, sorry didn't mean to put hay in your mouth

I don't see CCl4 on the MFS COA, just seeing ETOH and Hexane (.039 and .0024 respectively) and the RTS COA gives cyclohexane at </= .05% ("complies"). Then again I'm now awake yet lol.

The newer MFS document gives 99.92% by titration also, maybe they scrub with a toothbrush now

Cyrus, this is the MFS page I was looking at:

3 liters - Unflavored Nicotine E-Liquid 100mg - MyFreedomSmokes.com

It says 2011. I did not mean to imply he would fail, just that AEMSA requires documentation for every lot. Nic can change. Its not good enough to have docs for one lot a couple years ago. Must continually be current. And just stating a % purity of nic is not enough. What exactly are the impurities, and how much of each are there? He includes most of the ones of concern: solvents, heavy metals, other alkaloids. But he does not include the various TSNAs in the analysis, which we require to be itemized. So the numbers that he shows look very good indeed, quite good, but for what AEMSA requires, they are a bit incomplete, and not current.

To be fair, it is highly unlikely that the TSNAs would be over the limit. Nic this pure would not at all be expected to have high TSNAs, but he would need to spend a bit more to have those quantitated for AEMSA certification. I'm pretty sure ECX and RTS would also show all the right specs, but the specific tests would have to be payed for and the results available.

 

[Bosco]

You have to turn your head and read the sideways part at the bottom of this page:
Our Unflavored Smoke Juice (Nic. Juice, Nicotine Juice) - My Freedom Smokes

It says "Solvent: Chloroform D". It doesn't show up in the part where they list residual solvents, though.

From the way I read the RTS report - it seemed like they were saying that the solvent was cyclohexane.

I'm definitely talking over my head when I talk about solvents and chloroform and hexane . .I have no idea about chemistry and took something like "Biology for Non Science Majors" as my Science elective in college.

 

[Kurt]

Cyrus, I see what you are referring to now. Yes, that lot is 99.92%. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Not sure why there are more than one, with one over a year old, but regardless, it is good nic, I'm sure. This and the RTS is the highest purity I have seen in terms of %. The bulk of the rest of the material is water, it looks like. It would have to itemize TSNAs for AEMSA, even if they were "not detected". The test would have to be run, I believe.

The chloroform D is the solvent that was used to dilute the nicotine for GC-MS, not the extracting solvent. They probably use it because it is very pure, and it is also used for NMR in the lab that did it. Chloroform-D is CDCl3, a common NMR solvent, but its just a guess as to why it was used for the GC-MS. Normal CHCl3 would have been fine too. Non-issue for our purposes.

I am not an extraction expert. I know how to do it, but it is not my specialty by any means. That said, 99.92% is crazy pure. Even Sigma-Aldrich says their nic is just >99%, but that would be for research purposes, not consumption. We never found the specific % required for USP certification for nicotine, but generally USP is >99.5%. I am tempted to buy a small amount of the MFS to try it agsin. But I am not in need of nic any time soon.

 

[casey8579]

Cyrus, I see what you are referring to now. Yes, that lot is 99.92%. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Not sure why there are more than one, with one over a year old, but regardless, it is good nic, I'm sure. This and the RTS is the highest purity I have seen in terms of %. The bulk of the rest of the material is water, it looks like. It would have to itemize TSNAs for AEMSA, even if they were "not detected". The test would have to be run, I believe.

The chloroform D is the solvent that was used to dilute the nicotine for GC-MS, not the extracting solvent. They probably use it because it is very pure, and it is also used for NMR in the lab that did it. Chloroform-D is CDCl3, a common NMR solvent, but its just a guess as to why it was used for the GC-MS. Normal CHCl3 would have been fine too. Non-issue for our purposes.

I am not an extraction expert. I know how to do it, but it is not my specialty by any means. That said, 99.92% is crazy pure. Even Sigma-Aldrich says their nic is just >99%, but that would be for research purposes, not consumption. We never found the specific % required for USP certification for nicotine, but generally USP is >99.5%. I am tempted to buy a small amount of the MFS to try it agsin. But I am not in need of nic any time soon.

This link was provided earlier in this thread (I think by wolcen?) The Monographs of L-Nicotine( CAS : 54-11-5 ) in USP30.

It states between 99.0 and 101.0%, if this is the correct monograph for the type of nic we use.

 

[wolcen]

Thanks for digging that up casey - I was wondering the same thing when I read that. FWIW, I hand't found it, my partner (who used to be in the pharmacy biz) found it. Apparently pharmacy experience trumps my computer expertise

 

[casey8579]

Hi wolcen, glad I remembered correctly that it was you that posted it. I had bookmarked it, but was too lazy to dig back thru the thread to find who posted it.

 

[Cyrus Vap]

Cyrus, I see what you are referring to now. Yes, that lot is 99.92%. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Not sure why there are more than one, with one over a year old, but regardless, it is good nic, I'm sure. This and the RTS is the highest purity I have seen in terms of %. The bulk of the rest of the material is water, it looks like. It would have to itemize TSNAs for AEMSA, even if they were "not detected". The test would have to be run, I believe.

The chloroform D is the solvent that was used to dilute the nicotine for GC-MS, not the extracting solvent. They probably use it because it is very pure, and it is also used for NMR in the lab that did it. Chloroform-D is CDCl3, a common NMR solvent, but its just a guess as to why it was used for the GC-MS. Normal CHCl3 would have been fine too. Non-issue for our purposes.

I am not an extraction expert. I know how to do it, but it is not my specialty by any means. That said, 99.92% is crazy pure. Even Sigma-Aldrich says their nic is just >99%, but that would be for research purposes, not consumption. We never found the specific % required for USP certification for nicotine, but generally USP is >99.5%. I am tempted to buy a small amount of the MFS to try it agsin. But I am not in need of nic any time soon.

Good stuff Kurt. If what I have is around that pure, and still tastes this intense, again brings to mind a point you've brought up again and again to me...if its not purity then what the heck is it that makes these nics taste so different, kinda wild!




sorry for your troubles

I wonder why wizard recommended mfs, hmm, I didn't even know they did. That is interesting.

How a nic plays with flavors is obviously going to be important to most vapers; I trust you know what you're doing but I would just add that an unflavored to unflavored comparison is the only way at least approach a conclusion on nic X vs. nic Y, which is why I always nag people to go unflavored with it and then come back in here and drop some wisdomz Hell sometimes I can't even get the same results with identical proportions, nicotines, VG etc on a flavored juice, and I'm no supplier but I have been doing this for a fair amount of time now and I'm beyond .... with my measurements lol.

 

[JUDGMENT AFFIRMED]

I am tempted to buy a small amount of the MFS to try it agsin. But I am not in need of nic any time soon.

20% off thru Thursday
20NIC

 

[wolcen]

...
I wonder why wizard recommended mfs, hmm, I didn't even know they did. That is interesting.
...

Because he knows you'll come back even more grateful they've reopened? LOL J/K (seriously - many have spoken to/of John as a very stand-up guy, I wouldn't really suggest that's a motive).

The recommendation is on the home page in their moving notice.

 

[Kurt]

This link was provided earlier in this thread (I think by wolcen?) The Monographs of L-Nicotine( CAS : 54-11-5 ) in USP30.


It states between 99.0 and 101.0%, if this is the correct monograph for the type of nic we use.

Wow, thanks Casey! This is a big help to me!
That should be the range that the sample must have to pass. 101% is a precision thing...it can't be more pure than 100%. Sometimes the results can show that however, given the difficult nature of this titration, the precision of the concentrations of reagents used, and the number of trials to average. Basically it says for USP cert, the sample must be 99% or better, which is lower than the purity of the nics mentioned here.

 

[wolcen]

...I would just add that an unflavored to unflavored comparison is the only way at least approach a conclusion on nic X vs. nic Y, which is why I always nag people to go unflavored with it and then come back in here and drop some wisdomz...

...and also try your other ingredients by themselves. i.e.: try your VG and PG straight up. Get to know all your base ingredients (well, NOT a flavoring - that would be bad...worse in the case of alcohol based flavors ).

Had I not done this, I would probably have been scratching my head for a good bit wondering why my juice tasted like crap when I mixed it with Humco VG (bleck!)

 

[casey8579]

Wow, thanks Casey! This is a big help to me!
That should be the range that the sample must have to pass. 101% is a precision thing...it can't be more pure than 100%. Sometimes the results can show that however, given the difficult nature of this titration, the precision of the concentrations of reagents used, and the number of trials to average. Basically it says for USP cert, the sample must be 99% or better, which is lower than the purity of the nics mentioned here.

You're welcome Kurt, but wolcen deserves the credit, He and his friend originally dug it up.

 

[Cyrus Vap]

wow MFS had to cut their sale short due to a massive influx of nic orders, everyone's angst is giving me angst lol

 

[Jimi D.]

wow MFS had to cut their sale short due to a massive influx of nic orders, everyone's angst is giving me angst lol

Speaking of MFS. I steeped some FA Desert Ship with 80/20 pg vg. Love it !!! I feel like when I first started vaping.
I'm definitely getting that 2009-2010 Dekang TH out of it. Best juice I've made.

 

[flintlock62]

In confusion, there is profit.

wow MFS had to cut their sale short due to a massive influx of nic orders, everyone's angst is giving me angst lol