Nicsalts - Guess this is up for debate.

[DeloresRose]

Its funny, I posted in another thread the exact opposite experience with nic salts to yours.
Heres what I posted in this thread Question about salt-based

While I’ve never done a truly scientific test, I did use NS and FB side by side in the same recipe at the same mg/ml. I found I was vaping about the same way - 4-5 hits at a go. I did not notice that one felt stronger than another, but it does seem NS affects me sooner, but that FB leaves me satisfied longer. I found a lot of times when I really needed a fix, I’d grab the device with salt and hit it a few times, then switch directly to the one with freebase. I can’t recall ever doing it the other way around

 

[Jebbn]

You need to do the same test but make it a blind test. That way you take away any preconceived ideas you may or may not have. It would be interesting to see if you got the same results.

NS and FB taste different. You cant not taste the difference. I only vape unflavoured, there is no way to do a blind test.
I didnt really have any preconceived ideas about it.

 

[Izan]

Anyone own a ph meter?

Dirt cheap: Amazon.com: ph pen
Remember to buy buffer calibration solutions at ph4 and ph7 and storage solution.




Cheers
I

 

[AttyPops]

I don't want to buy one, I want to see if someone else already did, and what the ph of their 100mg/ml freebase nic is. Just out of curiosity.

 

[Brewdawg1181]

Sorry for the long post. I didn't start out to put all this in, but.....

Nic salts do 2 main things, as compared to freebase. The adjusted pH reduces the harshness, making higher nic content tolerable. It also dramatically increases the speed and efficiency in blood absorption. A third effect is that nicotine, when compounded with acids, is a more shelf stable product.

If you read the patent application by Pax Labs for Juul, you'll see that they tested about a half dozen different acid compound formulations vs. cigarettes, and did a pretty exhaustive study, including testing blood plasma nic levels over time, and satisfaction level surveys of participants. The goal was, of course, to replicate the smoking experience. Their test results showed that benzoate was the most effective acid. Here's their comparison chart of blood plasma nic levels over time. You can see that 4% benzoate (red line) is dramatically faster and higher than freebase (yellow).

Some may dismiss this as being overstated marketing by Juul. But Blu has been tested by 3rd parties. They use a lactate formula, and although the results are a little different, the overall curves are similar. Here's their chart (note that the time - x axis, is shorter). The top line is a cigarette, green is 25 mg salt, and yellow is 25 mg freebase.

Personally, I don't care for nic salts. I have no doubt that it gets into the bloodstream quicker, as I felt the same effect when making my own juice with nic salts. But a big part of the reason I continue to vape is for the throat hit, and salts remove that. I can see the benefit for those that want the nic, but only want the flavor of non-tobacco juices.

I don't believe nic is any more harmful than caffeine, and has many benefits in moderation. Studies show improved cognitive abilities, antioxidant properties, reduced brain cellular loss, and far lower incidence of Parkinson's Disease. You can look it up yourself, and there are many articles, but this is one of the first I found: Nicotine, the Wonder Drug?

And believe it or not, there's not a single credible study - ever - that proves nicotine without combusted tobacco is addictive at all. I found this link when I first started researching it. Nicotine Propaganda It's a good starting point, but I spent many hours beyond this searching for a conclusive study, and could find none. There were many studies done, but since have been rejected due to faulty methodology. Most found it impossible to get the mice/subjects addicted without the smoking aspect. This study, done in 2010 comes closest to actual proof. It involved genetically mutated mice. And while it showed some addictive markings, it also showed that the mice with modified genes no longer acted naturally in other respects, casting doubt on it being actual proof. And it included this statement comparing nic to other drugs:
"...comparatively miniscule withdrawal, no decreased sensitivity/escalating usage, only fractionally as addictive as opiates, alcohol, ........ As an addictive drug, it seems to stand alone in those respects."
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...588874000000/Changeux-2010-NatRevNeurosci.pdf

I believe this is why so many on this forum can gradually decrease nic, even down to zero, yet still find it difficult to quit vaping entirely. Yes, we're all different, but I know for myself, the act/feeling of inhalation is the strongest "addiction" I have. I've quit many times in my life, and was over the need for nic after a couple of days. But after taking millions of hits off of a cigarette over the decades, that's what my brain is programmed to want the most.

 

[Jebbn]

Sorry for the long post. I didn't start out to put all this in, but.....

Nic salts do 2 main things, as compared to freebase. The adjusted pH reduces the harshness, making higher nic content tolerable. It also dramatically increases the speed and efficiency in blood absorption. A third effect is that nicotine, when compounded with acids, is a more shelf stable product.

If you read the patent application by Pax Labs for Juul, you'll see that they tested about a half dozen different acid compound formulations vs. cigarettes, and did a pretty exhaustive study, including testing blood plasma nic levels over time, and satisfaction level surveys of participants. The goal was, of course, to replicate the smoking experience. Their test results showed that benzoate was the most effective acid. Here's their comparison chart of blood plasma nic levels over time. You can see that 4% benzoate (red line) is dramatically faster and higher than freebase (yellow).
View attachment 860773

Some may dismiss this as being overstated marketing by Juul. But Blu has been tested by 3rd parties. They use a lactate formula, and although the results are a little different, the overall curves are similar. Here's their chart (note that the time - x axis, is shorter). The top line is a cigarette, green is 25 mg salt, and yellow is 25 mg freebase.
View attachment 860775

Personally, I don't care for nic salts. I have no doubt that it gets into the bloodstream quicker, as I felt the same effect when making my own juice with nic salts. But a big part of the reason I continue to vape is for the throat hit, and salts remove that. I can see the benefit for those that want the nic, but only want the flavor of non-tobacco juices.

I don't believe nic is any more harmful than caffeine, and has many benefits in moderation. Studies show improved cognitive abilities, antioxidant properties, reduced brain cellular loss, and far lower incidence of Parkinson's Disease. You can look it up yourself, and there are many articles, but this is one of the first I found: Nicotine, the Wonder Drug?

And believe it or not, there's not a single credible study - ever - that proves nicotine without combusted tobacco is addictive at all. I found this link when I first started researching it. Nicotine Propaganda It's a good starting point, but I spent many hours beyond this searching for a conclusive study, and could find none. There were many studies done, but since have been rejected due to faulty methodology. Most found it impossible to get the mice/subjects addicted without the smoking aspect. This study, done in 2010 comes closest to actual proof. It involved genetically mutated mice. And while it showed some addictive markings, it also showed that the mice with modified genes no longer acted naturally in other respects, casting doubt on it being actual proof. And it included this statement comparing nic to other drugs:
"...comparatively miniscule withdrawal, no decreased sensitivity/escalating usage, only fractionally as addictive as opiates, alcohol, ........ As an addictive drug, it seems to stand alone in those respects."
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...588874000000/Changeux-2010-NatRevNeurosci.pdf

I believe this is why so many on this forum can gradually decrease nic, even down to zero, yet still find it difficult to quit vaping entirely. Yes, we're all different, but I know for myself, the act/feeling of inhalation is the strongest "addiction" I have. I've quit many times in my life, and was over the need for nic after a couple of days. But after taking millions of hits off of a cigarette over the decades, that's what my brain is programmed to want the most.

Ive read that "Blu" 3rd party test before.
What is interesting to me is that I only vape 3'ish mg juice. 3mg I think would barely rate when looking at how low 25mg freebase is on that graph.

 

[Izan]

I don't want to buy one, I want to see if someone else already did, and what the ph of their 100mg/ml freebase nic is. Just out of curiosity.

Fair play! Got ya covered.
I'll pull a bottle from the freezer and give it a test once it reaches room temp.

Chemnovatic throat hit nicotine at 100mg/ml in VG base. ~2015

ETA:
Two dip testes until the meter reading was stable:

1. PH 9.4
Probe rinsed in R.O. water (PH 7.3) between tests.
2. PH 9.4


Cheers
I

 

[wheelie]

I have a good PH tester as well. Needed for my legal indoor grow tent being in Canada. I have freebase but 120ml nicsalts not coming till Friday.

 

[Rossum]

I don't want to buy one, I want to see if someone else already did, and what the ph of their 100mg/ml freebase nic is. Just out of curiosity.

Since nic base isn't an aqueous solution, pH doesn't really have meaning.

Way back in 2015, when Juul was brand new and the only thing available with nic salts, I did play with pH paper. Here's various freebase liquids compared to Juul's "fruit" flavor:

And here's some unflavored 0mg, some VT base, and Juul:

However, all this shows is that freebase nic is alkaline. Again, you can't really quantify pH, because by definition, that can only be done in an aqueous solution.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Sorry for the long post. I didn't start out to put all this in, but.....

Nic salts do 2 main things, as compared to freebase. The adjusted pH reduces the harshness, making higher nic content tolerable. It also dramatically increases the speed and efficiency in blood absorption. A third effect is that nicotine, when compounded with acids, is a more shelf stable product.

If you read the patent application by Pax Labs for Juul, you'll see that they tested about a half dozen different acid compound formulations vs. cigarettes, and did a pretty exhaustive study, including testing blood plasma nic levels over time, and satisfaction level surveys of participants. The goal was, of course, to replicate the smoking experience. Their test results showed that benzoate was the most effective acid. Here's their comparison chart of blood plasma nic levels over time. You can see that 4% benzoate (red line) is dramatically faster and higher than freebase (yellow).
View attachment 860773

Some may dismiss this as being overstated marketing by Juul. But Blu has been tested by 3rd parties. They use a lactate formula, and although the results are a little different, the overall curves are similar. Here's their chart (note that the time - x axis, is shorter). The top line is a cigarette, green is 25 mg salt, and yellow is 25 mg freebase.
View attachment 860775

Personally, I don't care for nic salts. I have no doubt that it gets into the bloodstream quicker, as I felt the same effect when making my own juice with nic salts. But a big part of the reason I continue to vape is for the throat hit, and salts remove that. I can see the benefit for those that want the nic, but only want the flavor of non-tobacco juices.

I don't believe nic is any more harmful than caffeine, and has many benefits in moderation. Studies show improved cognitive abilities, antioxidant properties, reduced brain cellular loss, and far lower incidence of Parkinson's Disease. You can look it up yourself, and there are many articles, but this is one of the first I found: Nicotine, the Wonder Drug?

And believe it or not, there's not a single credible study - ever - that proves nicotine without combusted tobacco is addictive at all. I found this link when I first started researching it. Nicotine Propaganda It's a good starting point, but I spent many hours beyond this searching for a conclusive study, and could find none. There were many studies done, but since have been rejected due to faulty methodology. Most found it impossible to get the mice/subjects addicted without the smoking aspect. This study, done in 2010 comes closest to actual proof. It involved genetically mutated mice. And while it showed some addictive markings, it also showed that the mice with modified genes no longer acted naturally in other respects, casting doubt on it being actual proof. And it included this statement comparing nic to other drugs:
"...comparatively miniscule withdrawal, no decreased sensitivity/escalating usage, only fractionally as addictive as opiates, alcohol, ........ As an addictive drug, it seems to stand alone in those respects."
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...588874000000/Changeux-2010-NatRevNeurosci.pdf

I believe this is why so many on this forum can gradually decrease nic, even down to zero, yet still find it difficult to quit vaping entirely. Yes, we're all different, but I know for myself, the act/feeling of inhalation is the strongest "addiction" I have. I've quit many times in my life, and was over the need for nic after a couple of days. But after taking millions of hits off of a cigarette over the decades, that's what my brain is programmed to want the most.

Excellent post @Brewdawg1181

Also shadow your comment on the act/feeling of inhalation being a strong addiction. Many ways to consume nicotine – for myself all have failed for they could not satisfy that much sought after feeling of inhalation. Personally, this is where I feel vaping is so much more successful vs other nic delivery systems.

I have no thoughts on nic salts. My exposure is limited. But do feel they bring value to the vaping market. It is an added method that allows individuals to tailor their own personal vape so they may achieve a satisfaction that is on par, or greater than when they smoked cigarettes.

 

[AttyPops]

Since nic base isn't an aqueous solution, pH doesn't really have meaning.

:/

Way back in 2015,

I should have known....

OK, so Juul comes out closer to neutral, although you suspect that it can't be measured accurately.
Freebase is alkaline, and some other salt-nics might be acidic. Same accuracy concerns.

Hmm....

The thing that set me off, is that there's a SMALL chance that in the latest scares due to the...recreational THC street purchases...weren't 100% Vit-E a related.

There was mention not only of lipid pneumonia problems, but also reference to "resembling chemical burns". So I was just extrapolating. Not making any accusations at all. Just curiosity, as I said. Since "adding acid" was a topic here.

In all these things, caution is warranted. Experimenting on yourself is dangerous. No warranties expressed nor implied. Use at own risk. Etc. .........

 

[Rossum]

But do feel they bring value to the vaping market. It is an added method that allows individuals to tailor their own personal vape so they may achieve a satisfaction that is on par, or greater than when they smoked cigarettes.

This.

Everyone is different. Me, I had relatively little trouble quitting smoking with an eGo-style setup and 18 mg freebase. But some people needed lung-busting DL hits to quit smoking, while 50+ mg salts from low-powered devices are what work best for others.

Pretty much the only time I use salts is on those rare occasions when I'm stuck in a trade-show booth with limited breaks to vape. Then I use 'em at somewhere between double and triple my regular strength. The rest of the time, I'm entirely happy vaping freebase.

 

[Rossum]

I should have known....

At that point, I had quit a year and a half, but I still felt something was missing, especially first thing in the morning. After reading their patent, I was intrigued enough to order one and try it out. The Juul had plenty of nic hit, but I found the lack of vapor production to be less than satisfying (and I'm a 15-20 watt MTl tootle puffer!) I also tried cutting their liquid (painstakingly extracted from their pods) down to my (at the time) usual 15 mg/ml and found at that strength, in one of my usual devices, it really didn't do more for me than my regular freebase nic. So I reverted back to what I usually vaped pretty quickly,

OK, so Juul comes out closer to neutral, although you suspect that it can't be measured accurately.
Freebase is alkaline, and some other salt-nics might be acidic. Same accuracy concerns.

Yep, freebase is definitely aklaline, and salts are less harsh because they're close(r) to neutral. I really doubt that anyone would intentionally make a strongly acidic liquid because that would again be harsh, just in a different way.

In all these things, caution is warranted. Experimenting on yourself is dangerous. No warranties expressed nor implied. Use at own risk. Etc. .........

Ah, but without people experimenting on themselves, vaping would not exist at all, nor would most of the stuff we use.

 

[Brewdawg1181]

:/

There was mention not only of lipid pneumonia problems, but also reference to "resembling chemical burns". So I was just extrapolating. Not making any accusations at all. Just curiosity, as I said. Since "adding acid" was a topic here.

People hear acid, and think of a liquid that burns thru clothing, skin, etc. Maybe I misunderstand, but your post makes it sound like you're thinking in those terms.

pH is simply a balance between acidity and alkalinity. The acids used to make nic salts simply reduce the alkalinity from the caustic side (think lye based drain opener) to a more balanced pH that the body tolerates better. So a nic salt is actually far less acidic than say, lemonade- which of course, doesn't cause chemical burns.

 

[Rossum]

So a nic salt is actually far less acidic than say, lemonade- which of course, doesn't cause chemical burns.

There's no reason for it to be acidic at all. I think the whole point is to make it as close to neutral as possible.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I question these claims of chemical burns. I found it extremely unprofessional for an institute such as Mayo to make reference to a war atrocity with their Mustard Gas claims. Fear mongering at it’s finest. What is the probability of such chemical burns happening all within the same time frame and only within a specific region?

A Canadian vape shop ran a e-juice statistic and found nic salts makes up for 33% of all sales. This does not account for gas station and convince stores sales which I am willing to guess would increase that number by a healthy sum.

 

[wheelie]

Pretty much the only time I use salts is on those rare occasions when I'm stuck in a trade-show booth with limited breaks to vape. Then I use 'em at somewhere between double and triple my regular strength. The rest of the time, I'm entirely happy vaping freebase.

X2 Only when I want to stealth vape and want no one to see.

 

[AttyPops]

People hear acid, and think of a liquid that burns thru clothing, skin, etc. Maybe I misunderstand, but your post makes it sound like you're thinking in those terms.

pH is simply a balance between acidity and alkalinity. The acids used to make nic salts simply reduce the alkalinity from the caustic side (think lye based drain opener) to a more balanced pH that the body tolerates better. So a nic salt is actually far less acidic than say, lemonade- which of course, doesn't cause chemical burns.

I mentioned alkalinity and acids, and balance, obviously.

There's no reason for it to be acidic at all. I think the whole point is to make it as close to neutral as possible.

Right.

I was just wondering if it was too alkaline, or too acidic. Too far in either direction from neutral. Alkaline burns too.

 

[sonicbomb]

ECF user @charlie1465 created a thread documenting his successful attempt to create his own nic salt e-liquid using benzoic acid.
Making your own DIY salt nic with benzoic acid.

 

[sonicbomb]

In the context of how nic salts delivery nicotine, the subject of nicotine as a factor in satisfaction with your vape is interesting to me.

When I first quit I quickly realized that the amount and quality of the vapor was the vital factor for me to stay quit. Thus began the quest for a system that could could give what I needed, the nicotine level was of no real consequence in this. This is back in 2010 and I was using a truly abysmal cigalike that liked to regularly dump 36mg juice into my mouth, unpleasant to say the least.
Once I found a system that gave me the vape I needed I was able to drop the nicotine down to 4mg and there its been for at least the last seven years.
I have so far been unsuccessful in going to zero nic, which I attribute the lack of throat hit, but more likely it's a purely psychological barrier.

I've always been convinced that the act of inhaling/exhaling vapor is what makes ecigs such an effective smoking cessation tool. I'm pretty sure that anyone who has tried to use any other type of NRT can attest to to this.
The point to this being that I'm convinced that if my first vape had produced a good sized smooth plume and significant throat hit, I could have quit day one with a zero nic juice.

It's well documented that BT use super high nic/tar cigarettes to capture new markets. And that they have spent decades perfecting additives to cigarettes to enhance nicotine uptake, and arguably the complex synergistic chemistry of tobacco addiction.
I feel like the development of nic salts by Juul has a scary analogue to this, to the point where I have no desire to try nic salts. This and the fact that I get almost exactly what I need from regular freebase, if it isn't broken it doesn't need fixing.