NJOY to Discontinue Flavors, Takes Additional Steps to Prevent Underage Electronic Cigarette Use

[Surf Monkey]

Excellent point. Win the big stuff first. Once we get e-cigs approved and accepted, people will be more open to other options.

But that ignores one of the most basic political and social truisms: once you give something up, it's practically impossible to get it back. If you think you're going to give up most of the marbles right now and then get them back at a later date, you're fooling yourself IMO.

 

[kristin]

It is called inconsistant pleading Our House. Counsel for njoy plead to the Court that it is a tobacco product. If njoy represents to the Court that it is a tobacco product then it has to adhere to the current laws in place with regards to tobacco products.

Since the flavoring ban already went into effect with tobacco, njoy is simply being constant with it's postion it has advanced to the Court.


Sun

Ah, someone who knows the true motivation - thanks for pointing that out, Sun!

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Ah, someone who knows the true motivation - thanks for pointing that out, Sun!

You are welcome Kristin. I have been busy running around and never addressed this. NJOY can not have it's cake and eat it too. It stated it is a tobacco product and now has to act like one.


Sun

 

[Our House]

It is called inconsistant pleading Our House. Counsel for NJOY plead to the Court that it is a tobacco product. If NJOY represents to the Court that it is a tobacco product then it has to adhere to the current laws in place with regards to tobacco products.

Since the flavoring ban already went into effect with tobacco, NJOY is simply being constant with it's postion it has advanced to the Court.


Sun

So you're saying that NJOY is just being consistent and pretty much HAD to drop flavors? I can buy that, but it doesn't make sense why they wouldn't have made this announcement earlier...like when flavors were dropped from cigarettes and they were already pleading ecigs as a tobacco product.

It feels like they (and NJ State, and other people/places) are poised for these to be tobacco products.

 

[Surf Monkey]

It is called inconsistant pleading Our House. Counsel for NJOY plead to the Court that it is a tobacco product. If NJOY represents to the Court that it is a tobacco product then it has to adhere to the current laws in place with regards to tobacco products.

Since the flavoring ban already went into effect with tobacco, NJOY is simply being constant with it's postion it has advanced to the Court.


Sun

Yes, it's clear why NJOY is doing it and as the board chair of the ECA it's clear why it's happening there too. Doesn't make it any less of a mistake. NJOY should never have positioned PVs as tobacco products in the first place. That will probably end up being the single fatal mistake.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

So you're saying that NJOY is just being consistent and pretty much HAD to drop flavors? I can buy that, but it doesn't make sense why they wouldn't have made this announcement earlier...like when flavors were dropped from cigarettes and they were already pleading ecigs as a tobacco product.

It feels like they (and NJ State, and other people/places) are poised for these to be tobacco products.

Our House--that is correct---Counsel I am sure told them the flavors have to go to stay in line with their theory of the case that the e-cig is a tobacco product. Everyone should be prepared that even best case scenerio, which is that the e-cig is deemed a tobacco product as SE and NJOY are pleading, that the flavors will never be approved for sale.


Sun

 

[kristin]

But that ignores one of the most basic political and social truisms: once you give something up, it's practically impossible to get it back. If you think you're going to give up most of the marbles right now and then get them back at a later date, you're fooling yourself IMO.

It's hard to tell, Surf. E-cigs don't fit nicely into any other past scenarios - they are something completely new.

Having non-tobacco flavors isn't the most important battle, though. Getting the antis off of our backs and getting e-cigs approved is.

Like I pointed out before, the majority of new e-cig users are looking for the most cigarette-like ecig they can find, both in looks and flavor. It's only later that they discover alternative flavors IF they come here. This forum is highly skewed, because we are exposed to those alternatives.

In retrospect, had I never come to this forum, I now believe I'd still be using tobacco flavor, because it's still better than analogs. It'd be interesting to do a poll on what flavor the majority of vapers use as their regular vape - tobacco, menthol or non-tobacco flavor - and if they'd actually quit if only tobacco/menthol was available.

I'd rather have tobacco-flavored e-cigs than no e-cigs at all.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Yes, it's clear why NJOY is doing it and as the board chair of the ECA it's clear why it's happening there too. Doesn't make it any less of a mistake. NJOY should never have positioned PVs as tobacco products in the first place. That will probably end up being the single fatal mistake.

At the time before the new legisaltion was passed, that was a good theory of the case, but after the legislation, it has left everyone in a bad position.

Sun

 

[Surf Monkey]

Like I pointed out before, the majority of new e-cig users are looking for the most cigarette-like ecig they can find, both in looks and flavor. It's only later that they discover alternative flavors IF they come here. This forum is highly skewed, because we are exposed to those alternatives.

Yes, and the vast majority of new PV users are disappointed by the so-called tobacco flavorings too. Vapor isn't smoke. PVs aren't cigarettes. There is no tobacco flavoring that even comes close to actual smoking... and without alternatives out there, most people are likely to simply drop PVs when they realize that fact.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

I'd rather have tobacco-flavored e-cigs than no e-cigs at all.

There you go Kristin--that is so true and that is why NJOY did it. SE is out to lunch so to speak.


Sun

 

[Surf Monkey]

At the time before the new legisaltion was passed, that was a good theory of the case, but after the legislation, it has left everyone in a bad position.

Sun

Yes, I know that as well. As I'm sure you know, I've been following the case reasonably closely since practically the beginning. Even back then, before the legislation passed, I thought positioning PVs as tobacco products was a big mistake. Nicotine =/= tobacco and as a matter of practical reality PVs =/= nicotine, just as water pipes =/= THC.

 

[Our House]

At the time before the new legisaltion was passed, that was a good theory of the case, but after the legislation, it has left everyone in a bad position.

Sun

Judge Leon has an even tougher dilemma than originally thought because if ecigs are deemed a tobacco product then the FDA did overstep its bounds at the time of suit and the new tobacco act had no bearing on SE's request for relief (at the time of originally filing).

As far as setting precedent for the future, well that's a different story.

 

[Our House]

Surf,

What's the alternative though? Do you really see combo drug device as something better??

IMO (given only two choices...which I don't personally believe), pleading drug would have been a fatal mistake, and tobacco is the lesser of two evils.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Do you really see combo drug device as something better??

Do you see pot vaporizers facing the same kind of backlash that PVs are? No. Why? Because pot product vendors figured out this stuff long ago.

By hitching PVs to tobacco, they become the focus of a culture war. Smoking/anti-smoking is no longer a rational issue. It's pure politics and cultural warfare. That's the LAST place you want to be as an emerging product, and that's why the vendors of pot vaporizers are quite careful to NEVER mention marijuana in their advertising. They talk about wholesome legal things like fruit extracts, legal herbs, aroma therapy and so forth. PVs could have been positioned similarly... except for the fact that the manufacturers wanted to make a quick buck on the backs of nicotine addicts and in doing so made the central and critical mistake of building them to look EXACTLY like cigarettes. It was also a huge mistake for the hardware manufacturers to sell nicotine laced fluid with them. They should have been selling them with empty carts and letting third parties manufacture and distribute the consumables. People selling vaporizers for pot don't sell any consumables with the devices. It's up to the consumer to handle that part.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Judge Leon has an even tougher dilemma than originally thought because if ecigs are deemed a tobacco product then the FDA did overstep its bounds at the time of suit and the new tobacco act had no bearing on SE's request for relief (at the time of originally filing).

As far as setting precedent for the future, well that's a different story.

Our House--correct, but do to the new legislation it does not save the day totally, rather it stops a ban. But then you have the regulations that include limiting the amount of nicotine, flavorings, self dosing, etc.

Sun

 

[Surf Monkey]

But then you have the regulations that include limiting the amount of nicotine, flavorings, self dosing, etc.

None of which can be fairly written due to the fact that we don't have any idea how much nicotine enters the system through PV usage. The numbers on bottles of fluid are basically meaningless (especially in the context of a 1:1 comparison with the amount of nicotine in an analogue, which vapors and anti-vapors do all the time) until we have better lab testing.

 

[kristin]

I posted a "flavor poll" here, if anyone would like to participate: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/55057-tobacco-menthol-other.html

 

[Sun Vaporer]

None of which can be fairly written due to the fact that we don't have any idea how much nicotine enters the system through PV usage. The numbers on bottles of fluid are basically meaningless (especially in the context of a 1:1 comparison with the amount of nicotine in an analogue, which vapors and anti-vapors do all the time) until we have better lab testing.

Surf--by the time this case is up on Appeal you are going to see more study results on e-cigs then you care to read--just sit back and watch.

Sun

 

[Our House]

Not to ignore the rest of your post, but I'd like to jump right to the point...

Do you see pot vaporizers facing the same kind of backlash that PVs are? No. Why? Because pot product vendors figured out this stuff long ago.

Why? It's very simple. Pot vaporizers don't take money out of the pockets of BT and PT.

THAT'S the reason why PVs experience the backlash that they do. Everything else is a distant 2nd.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Surf--by the time this case is up on Appeal you are going to see more study results on e-cigs then you care to read--just sit back and watch.

Sun

I'm looking forward to it.