NO battery is failproof!!!!!

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tiburonfirst

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the subject of failproof aka safe batteries came up repeatedly in the sparkplug thread. it bothered me that there were lots of people who assume that safe chemistry batteries are worryfree.
please, remember there are NO batteries that can be considered 100% safe.
it is best to learn as much as possible about the type of batteries you are using and act accordingly!
 

tiburonfirst

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Here are some pictures that illustrate what can happen when you use an unprotected battery a battery fails. The lady this happened to was not harmed, but her coat pocket caught on fire. The case in the photos is a metal eyeglass case.

Edit: It was pointed out that my post might be inflammatory and that this flies directly in the face of "conventional wisdom." These photographs were not posted in order to "stir the pot". Rest assured that the forum administrative staff will be looking it over and discussing possible revisions or amendments to our battery safety stickies.

89GCy.jpg


Q39dY.jpg


EUBEe.jpg


yANpa.jpg

this was an aw imr battery - also called a safe chemistry battery
 

Enid

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Wow, thanks for the info. I've never used a unprotected battery, that I know of but I'm not sure. With all the counterfeit goods coming out of China , you can never know. I don't know where my buyer buys from, and then his buyer...
Verizon had this problem with their phones exploding a few years ago and it turns out Verizon unknowingly bought counterfeit batteries. They were supposed and labeled protected but blew up.

Vape safely everyone!
 
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tiburonfirst

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enid, this was not an unprotected run-of-the-mill battery - this was an aw imr battery, a safe chemistry battery which comes highly recommended on ecf.
and don't be complacent about protected batteries either - the built-in protection circuits can fail.

if you are using a mod you need to educate yourself on batteries!
 

BiancaMontgomery

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tiburonfirst

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chelle, that's why i thought it to be so important to post these picture.

as per roly and the link you posted above:

" Current information is that AW IMR Li-Mn rechargeables are the safest batteries for use in mods."

but that is exactly the kind of battery that exploded!!!!!!
and i could see in the sparkplug thread that lots of people believe if you buy the safe-chemistry batteries then you don't have to worry about mishaps! it's just not true - all types of batteries can fail and i want everyone to realize that and not have this false sense of security.
 

BiancaMontgomery

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Education is key here and we need to not only be educated on the batteries themselves, but also the chargers we're putting them in. Even with vast amounts of knowledge on these subjects, "stuff" can happen. Still...the more we know, the better chance we have of staying safe. :)

Here's some more information I dug up on batteries relating to use in mods:

Advantages of Li-ion batteries:
- Low self-discharge rate.
- No memory effects.
- Long service life, about 200 - 300 recharges.
- Cheap compared to some types.

Disadvantages:
- Poor high-current discharge performance.
- Applications that require high current (like e-cigs) will shorten the life of the battery.
- Unprotected batteries might be used by mistake, these are dangerous in high-current use mode, they can AND DO explode.
- The protection electronics can fail due to being zapped by static, or a faulty charger - so the battery is rendered unsafe and there is no indication of this.

The protection circuit on a protected Li-ion battery can fail, so an Li-Mn or LiFePO4 is intrinsically safer.


IMR Li-MN rechargeables
Manufacturers include AW and BDL. AW are reported as higher quality. These batteries are unlikely to explode in use. They are recommended in place of Li-ions and do not need protection. However there are cautions with these batteries:
- They have a high current discharge potential and therefore it may be wise to have a protection circuit in the main device. The discharge rating is 8C, meaning it is likely that a lot of amps would be available if the battery were to be short-circuited.
- They will be overcharged by old-technology chargers and may burst.
- Overcharging (>4.25 volts) will shorten the service life, which is 500 charges under ideal conditions.
- Discharging below 3.6 volts will shorten the service life.
- No memory effect.
- Ideally a charger specifically for these cells should be used.
- These batteries are of high quality and are therefore expensive - but you get what you pay for.
- If you run a Li-Mn down below the minimum discharge voltage, the cell can be damaged. As there is no 'trip out' as with a protected Li-ion, this is a concern.


LiFePO4 rechargeables
These lithium ferrous phosphate batteries have a safe chemistry. LifePO4 is a newer technology and more expensive than Li-ion. This is a safe technology and they don't need any protection. AW batteries make these, and they are a very good choice as they are capable of taking the high load of an e-cig. They come in the same form-factor as the Li-ions used in ecig mods and are an excellent substitute, preferable in all ways except for the cost - however, note the caution below. Notes:
- Do not connect in parallel.
- 2 cells max in series.
- Very long service life of 1,000 charges, under ideal conditions.
- No memory effect.
- Discharge rate is 10C+ so they will certainly power atomizers effectively - but short-circuits need to be guarded against. The 26650 cell for example can put out 70 amps in a dead short.
- Fast recharge.
- Nominal voltage (type 1 eg CR123 format) = 3.0 - 3.3v, min. discharge v = 2.8v, max. charge voltage = 3.6v; nominal voltage (type 2 eg AW 14500)= 3.6v.
- Needs a special charger - different for the two types.

AW LiFePO4's are reported as being the best. They have a much higher discharge rate than Tenergy ones for example - the small Tenergy cells may not be up to the job.

We have one report of a LiFePO4 failure in a mod. It might have been due to the reason given below.

CAUTION: most LiFePO4 batteries have a working voltage much lower than the Li-ion equivalent - 3.2 or 3.3 volts - and they CANNOT be used with Li-ion chargers. AW do make a 3.6 volt LifePO4 battery (their 14500 model) but this is not the norm for LiFePO4. There is a very good chance that some users of LiFePO4's will overcharge them, leading to failure, since the MAXIMUM charge voltage is 3.6 volts but the common Li-ion chargers put out 4.2 volts.
Because of this, AW's Li-Mn rechargeables are thought to be the best option for mods.

Do NOT EVER place 3v batteries in a 3.6v (normal) charger. LiFePO4's are 3v batteries.


Ni-MH rechargeables
These are the stock rechargeables found on main street. They come in the usual AA and AAA formats. Their voltage is just 1.2 volts per cell, so 3 or 4 cells in series are needed for e-cigarette use. They are a safe technology and do not explode with mild abuse. No protection circuitry is needed. A mod can be built very successfully using these standard rechargeables.

They can safely deliver high current to an ecig atomizer. There are some minor disadvantages (shorter life etc) but on the whole they can be used successfully. Each cell delivers 1.2 volts, so some adjustment of the battery numbers / arrangements has to be made. For example 3 in series will provide 3.6 volts (perfect for normal e-cig use), and 4 in series gives 4.8 volts (5 volts essentially). These standard rechargeables are a good choice for mods that are built for the form factor and voltage requirements.

Pros:
- Can deliver high current better than Li-ion.
- Available anywhere.
- The multi-cell battery holders found in electronics stores can easily be used as a boxmod basis.
- Safe technology, no explosions even when stacked.

Cons:
- In theory, a shorter service life. This has not been found to be the case in ecig mod tests though, as many Li-ions don't last long in practice.
- Lower voltage so more cells are needed - at least 3 cells in series.
 

gramakittycat

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Thank you so much for sharing,can this be posted forum wide? Those pics speak volumes and i believe alot of people (myself included) are lulled into a false sense of security when we use products that are made by such reputable manufacturers.iIhope you did'nt get injured !
 

tiburonfirst

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grama - thanks for your concern but it did not happen to me.
oldsoldier posted this by request and i found it either in the general e-cig forum or new members forum.

and you are right about misconceptions and a false sense of security. that was very plain to me when we were discussing choice of batteries in the sparkplug thread but at that time i had no pictures to back me up.
 
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BiancaMontgomery

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There a definitely a few key things to watch out for with our mod batteries.

I know if they feel warm/warm up your mod, it's time to get them out of your mod/house. Also if your charger is getting warm or the batts are warm upon coming off the charger, this is a sign of danger. You should never leave your batts on a charger if you're not there to keep an eye on them.

If the covering is coming off your batts, I suppose you could wrap them in electrical tape...or perhaps it's time to replace them with new ones.

Anyone know any other signs that you're batts/chargers are in trouble? Post them please. :)
 

bmwjen

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my husband told me the same thing, just as tib posted when I got my first mod (my Reo back in February).

now some mods, such as the REO are built protected, so even if your batts get jacked up, your mod won't.
the infinity is protected (except for if you load your batteries backwards)
IMHO, the saber touch is probably one of the safest mods on the market.
i'm sure there are other mods out there that are protected, these are all I have researched & know for certain though.

~my point in posting........just because your batteries blow up/overheat/leak, etc, you don't want your $200 mod to be ruined because of it. So, when purchasing a mod, try to purchase one that has built in protection just in case your batteries start to go crazy on you.
 
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BiancaMontgomery

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I know that Vaprlife mods have built in protection too. I didn't know about the REO, so thank you for posting that Jen. :)

my husband told me the same thing, just as tib posted when I got my first mod (my Reo back in February).

now some mods, such as the REO are built protected, so even if your batts get jacked up, your mod won't.
the infinity is protected (except for if you load your batteries backwards)
IMHO, the saber touch is probably one of the safest mods on the market.
i'm sure there are other mods out there that are protected, these are all I have researched & know for certain though.
 

daisyd

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I know that Vaprlife mods have built in protection too. I didn't know about the REO, so thank you for posting that Jen. :)

Perfect timing B! I was just starting to panic a little about the decision to go mod. VP1&2 will be safe. :D (assuming I don't chuck my purse in the toilet because my batts caught fire. :shock:)
 
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