No resistance wire toxicity

[IceStorm]

Hi all,
I bought a Oddy and for the no resistance(in reality low res) wire i saw people was using Silver wire or Nickel wire , so like everything i buy related to ecig , i looked for the Msds file , its seem to me that you have 2 choice of poison.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Silver wire MSDS: http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/99056.htm
Section 11:
Show no evidence of Carcinogen , Good.
Section 3:
Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. Inhalation of fumes may cause metal fume fever, which is characterized by flu-like symptoms with metallic taste, fever, chills, cough, weakness, chest pain, muscle pain and increased white blood cell count.
Melting Point:961 deg C. (Really low Melting temp)
So with this one you can get Metal poisoning, the junction with the resistance wire can get to 800+ C if you get a dry burn(accidentaly or not).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nickel wire MSDS : http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927372
Section 11:
Routes of Entry: Inhalation. Ingestion.
CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Classified 2B (Possible for human.) by IARC. Classified 2 (Some evidence.) by NTP. Causes
damage to the following organs: skin. May cause damage to the following organs: kidneys, lungs, liver, upper respiratory tract.
Section 3:
Potential Acute Health Effects:
Hazardous in case of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant, sensitizer), of eye contact (irritant), of
ingestion.
Potential Chronic Health Effects:
Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (sensitizer), of ingestion, of inhalation (lung sensitizer). CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS:
Classified 2B (Possible for human.) by IARC. Classified 2 (Some evidence.) by NTP. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available. The substance is toxic to skin. The
substance may be toxic to kidneys, lungs, liver, upper respiratory tract. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can
produce target organs damage.
Melting point: 1455C (at least there some room to play here)
This one is potentialy a Carcinogen and cause damage to some organs.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first thing ive done after reading this is to try to get Fume first. so i attached my (no res -> res -> no res) like people do and i fired it up at 4.5v, after 6 second there was some fume coming from both end of the Kantal wire (junctiond to the no res wire) with the Nickel wire, the worst one was the Silver Wire with fume after 4 second. Both test was performed with no wick to avoid Fume from the wick.
So do anybody have a alternative like double/triple kantal wire for the no res or heavy gauge kantal (28or lower for low res and 32g for res). i really dont know what to use.
Best Regards,
Eric

 

[LucentShadow]

You seem to be asserting that you believe nickel and silver to be unsafe, based upon that casual test. If so, I'm not convinced.

You seem to believe that Kanthal is somehow safer than those. If so, I'm not convinced.

I've seen a fair amount of discussion on different metals here, with no apparent consensus. Who knows when or if any good information will be had on the subject?

I say that any metal poses potential risks. I'd advise avoiding heating them to that point, and not panicking over what the MSDS says, as it generally does not apply to this situation.

 

[IceStorm]

You seem to be asserting that you believe nickel and silver to be unsafe, based upon that casual test. If so, I'm not convinced.

You seem to believe that Kanthal is somehow safer than those. If so, I'm not convinced.

I've seen a fair amount of discussion on different metals here, with no apparent consensus. Who knows when or if any good information will be had on the subject?

I say that any metal poses potential risks. I'd advise avoiding heating them to that point, and not panicking over what the MSDS says, as it generally does not apply to this situation.

Hi LucentShadow,
You are right , I don't care about the Kanthal wire because I know what it does and what im exposed too , when you heat it , it build a Aluminium Oxide Coating on the wire (AL2O3 to be exact) and its totally inert , if you want to see the MSDS : http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9922858 . Extremly high melting point and on Section 8 , its a relatively huge amount who need to be inhaled to go over the exposure Limits. Section 11: no Carcinogen for human , but some study can point to some incident with animal test.

Best Regards,
Eric

 

[tenshi]

I believe they are mainly talking about the dust, for example nickel dust in the steel industry. Both nickel and silver do not usually react with water so if you don't add sulfuric acid or nitric acid to your vape, which they both react with... I don't believe one has to worry about it.

 

[LucentShadow]

Hi, IceStorm.

I work in an aluminum industry, and I am exposed to aluminum oxide from the metal itself, and from sandpaper that is used on it. I know that it's not harmless, but I'm certainly not looking to scare anyone away from it. It's my livelihood, after all.

I also know that how kanthal oxidizes is certainly not that simple. All of the metals in it will oxidize to some degree. For reference:

High-temperature Corrosion and Materials Applications - G. Y. Lai - Google Books

What I was trying to say is that there has been a fair amount of scrutiny from the community here on this subject, but there just isn't enough data specific to our case to make anything better than a guess on the subject.

I've seen silver, stainless steel, and nickel used by many, for what that's worth. I've seen stainless steel (mesh) come under some scrutiny, lately:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...08-stainless-steel-mesh-oxide-discussion.html

Bottom line, use what you're most comfortable with. Nobody here can truthfully assert that any of them are safe.

Not that I think the discussion is not worth having, but it is a bit frustrating to endlessly speculate about the subject, with no real hope of any resolution.

 

[IceStorm]

Hi, IceStorm.

I work in an aluminum industry, and I am exposed to aluminum oxide from the metal itself, and from sandpaper that is used on it. I know that it's not harmless, but I'm certainly not looking to scare anyone away from it. It's my livelihood, after all.

I also know that how kanthal oxidizes is certainly not that simple. All of the metals in it will oxidize to some degree. For reference:

High-temperature Corrosion and Materials Applications - G. Y. Lai - Google Books

What I was trying to say is that there has been a fair amount of scrutiny from the community here on this subject, but there just isn't enough data specific to our case to make anything better than a guess on the subject.

I've seen silver, stainless steel, and nickel used by many, for what that's worth. I've seen stainless steel (mesh) come under some scrutiny, lately:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...08-stainless-steel-mesh-oxide-discussion.html

Bottom line, use what you're most comfortable with. Nobody here can truthfully assert that any of them are safe.

Not that I think the discussion is not worth having, but it is a bit frustrating to endlessly speculate about the subject, with no real hope of any resolution.

I totally agree with you , ill keep my Oddy in the box for now until I get some test done on it with lab result. Nickel is a really nasty metal and the low melting point of silver scare me too because it fume at low temperature if you saw some video on Silver plating on glass, so ill put that on hold. The problem with Metal unlike tar from tabacco is it will maybe never get out of the body and continue to kill you from the inside.

Best Regards,
Eric

 

[LucentShadow]

Personally, I'm curious about using iron wire, such as:

Metalliferous - 8oz Spool Dark Annealed Iron Wire

I have not gotten around to looking into any health implications of using it, though. I have not seen anyone mention trying it, either.

ETA- Probably not the best choice, at first glance...

I think that I'll eventually just get some aluminum wire. Can't be any worse than what I get at work, I think.

 

[IceStorm]

that's a great idea but I cant find the conductivity value , if its low enough ill try for sure.

Best Regards,
Eric

 

[IceStorm]

Personally, I'm curious about using iron wire, such as:

Metalliferous - 8oz Spool Dark Annealed Iron Wire

I have not gotten around to looking into any health implications of using it, though. I have not seen anyone mention trying it, either.

ETA- Probably not the best choice, at first glance...

I think that I'll eventually just get some aluminum wire. Can't be any worse than what I get at work, I think.

if we look at the MSDS for the aluminum wire : http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9922844 it seem the best choice but the problem is about the same as the silver, low melting point, 660C for aluminium wire , its the junction point with the kanthal who make all the trouble.

 

[tenshi]

I would be more cautious using iron wire (or anything that isn't normally suggested for non-resistant wire in rbas) because unlike silver, it does react with steam and gives off iron oxide and hydrogen gas which is an asphyxiant. Pure silver is non toxic to humans, non carcinogenic, biologically inert... Even if it is melted, it's still silver. Silver salts are hazardous but we're not dealing with salt products, we're dealing with 99.99% pure silver. As far as Nickel is concerned, I know there has been an increase of Nickel allergy, those people must be very careful to avoid it.

Just my Anyway, good luck in whatever you choose.

 

[LucentShadow]

What do you use to make the junctions? Just twisting together?

I would think that welding them together (in a well-ventilated area) might make for a less-resistive junction, and help with that.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...095-resistance-no-resistance-wire-welder.html

I've just started experimenting with one of those, but it seems to work pretty well once you get the hang of it.

 

[IceStorm]

I think I found the best thing finally, wires.co.uk : Stainless Steel 304 Wire SS 304 wire (can be any grade) , really low resistance.

Properties: Properties of 304 stainless steel wafers and foils

Melting point 1399-1421.

Ill by some and will report the result.

Best Regards,
Eric

 

[IceStorm]

What do you use to make the junctions? Just twisting together?

I would think that welding them together (in a well-ventilated area) might make for a less-resistive junction, and help with that.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...095-resistance-no-resistance-wire-welder.html

I've just started experimenting with one of those, but it seems to work pretty well once you get the hang of it.

yeah twisting and rolling for the first test and I've done the welding too with capacitive discharge , the problem is worst with this one because the surface area is smaller for the heat transfer, it break more easily.

 

[IceStorm]

I would be more cautious using iron wire (or anything that isn't normally suggested for non-resistant wire in rbas) because unlike silver, it does react with steam and gives off iron oxide and hydrogen gas which is an asphyxiant. Pure silver is non toxic to humans, non carcinogenic, biologically inert... Even if it is melted, it's still silver. Silver salts are hazardous but we're not dealing with salt products, we're dealing with 99.99% pure silver. As far as Nickel is concerned, I know there has been an increase of Nickel allergy, those people must be very careful to avoid it.

Just my Anyway, good luck in whatever you choose.

Do a search on Silver Fume Poisoning and do the simple test ive done on my first post. Silver have a really low melting point , the junction with the kanthal wire is the problem , ill continue my search for the answer , to be honest I hope to find that the silver wire is the best thing and safer to use but for now, I only find thing that tell the opposite.

Best Regards,
Eric

 

[tenshi]

Do a search on Silver Fume Poisoning and do the simple test ive done on my first post. Silver have a really low melting point , the junction with the kanthal wire is the problem , ill continue my search for the answer , to be honest I hope to find that the silver wire is the best thing and safer to use but for now, I only find thing that tell the opposite.

Best Regards,
Eric

Hi Eric, I understand about silver fume poisoning, and that is due to decomposition or soluble silver salt compounds which we are not dealing with. In factories, yes. As far as fumes or metals in solution, it would be best to do both quantitative and qualitative analysis in a lab using ICP-MS or an equivalent test. Not sure how you determined what chemical makeup the fumes in your experiment was... But certainly not here to argue. As someone said earlier in the post, vape with whatever you feel comfortable with. Like I said, just my two cents. Be safe, vape on

 

[IceStorm]

Hi Tenshi,
Fume is not a silver salt nor Dust is a silver salt but both is associated to Silver Metal Poisoning. A lot of people who got intoxicated was glass blower, here a example : Silver Fuming - YouTube . But I do agree that the fume who got release from the silver wire in my test can be oxide or impurity (.999 silver) , I don't know and my temperature was A LOT higher than what people vape. I wanted to see if it was possible in case of a dry burn to inhale fume, it seem possible.

Best Regards,
Eric